fsf-discuss November 2002

fsf-discuss@mm.gnu.org.in

2 participants
8 discussions

(no subject)
by Tarun Gaur 30 Nov '02

30 Nov '02

Hi Friends, I feel great that i have been able to induce the need for Constructive Criticism into our forum. This sets our focus on identifying the problems and then working on them for betterment of the brave GNU world. Friends, i will quote a small example on how keeping a close tab on competetion can help. The place where I am working, we are developing a complete replacement of .NET on GNU/Linux. Now I and some of my collegues have been keeping a close tab on what Microsoft has been doing and where they stand today. Now we tried to pick up information from all the possible sources, we could lay hands on plus our exposure to MS technologies over the years helped. (I was using their products since the Windows 16 bit days), so its like seen it all. And then i have a habit of closely watching all the speeches, articles and books of guys like Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer. I also keep a tab on the research projets at Microsoft, IBM, HP, Intel, Major US Universities. Now we started our research ... and came to some very wonderful conclusions. - If Windows 95 can be inspired from Mac 89, why cant our interfaces make use of all the research done by Microsoft on interfaces. This is like giving them their cake on their face. - Microsoft's strength has been "ease of use" of their software, with 2000 servers and .NET they are coming into enterprise world. .NET is not that easy after all, though not that difficult too. - Microsoft cant afford to do away with Windows OS but still Bill Gates picks up 21% stake in COREL LINUX. corel is working on desktop linux. - Our research said ... If you want to be a serious contender in the global market with .NET, ... keep it easy. And I wrote a POEM ... I call it.. "MAKE IT EASY YAAR" " BE AWARE OF THE NEED, ISOLATE THE PROBLEM, DONT REINVENT THE WHEEL, AND THEN SEE, WHAT YOU FEEL, MAKE IT EASY FOR YOUR BOSS, YOU WILL NEVER GET A TOSS, MAKE IT EASY FOR THE DEVELOPER, YOU ARE SURE TO EARN A FOLLOWER, MAKE IT EASY FOR THE USER, YOU WILL NEVER BE A LOSER. NOW, WORK IN YOUR MILL, AND GO IN FOR THE KILL, BE SURE, IT WILL TAKE SOME TIME, BEFORE THEIR WOUNDS HEAL, AND THEN SEE, WHAT THEY FEEL. Now, the point is awareness is the key to knowledge and knowledge is a key to wisdom. AND FOR US WISDOM SAYS ... Keep it easy. Now, praising others for good work is not bad after all. We can praise the Work of some good companies on our forum and learn from it to improve our software. Leave you with this thought, Free software for the brave GNU world. Regards, Tarun Gaur _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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Good s/w promotes ideology on its own ... we can help for sure
by Tarun Gaur 29 Nov '02

29 Nov '02

Hi Ajith, By the likes of it, it seems that you are quite senior to me when it comes to the industry. As far as linux goes, i think i am my self a sort of vetran. Now, I totally agree with you that criticism alone cannot improve things. But friend , the ideology is based on how well it can be accepted by the masses and anything inferior is not generally accepted ( though we may quote exceptions, but remember exceptions are always in minority ). Now "inferior" is a relative term. Something that may not be inferior at BARC (for scientists) may be inferior for the masses (because the needs are different). I have never doubted our ability to write wonderful software. But we have ignored the "interfaces" for the masses for too long. I am sure Richard Stallman agrees. Now, you have yourself mentioned that FSF is currently worrying about helping school children take on GNU/Linux. Now, lets just for a moment pause and ponder over the needs of these kids and put our software on test. Now lets forget the problems, lets try and find answers. As far as the ideology goes, it is spreading and will spread even more the moment we start touching the masses. Projects like Gnome and KDE have taken giant strides in the direction. But there is scope of improvement. Now, to put this point thru i need help of people like you to endorse the fact that we need to improve the interfaces, we need to consolidate the services on GNU/Linux, we need to simplify the structure etc and believe me, we are all set to push Microsoft software to a corner if not oblivion. Look at the current scenario, - microsoft is in a transition phase - We are real good at Server side solutions - They are consolidating their servers - We are working on GUIs Now, we know it is peanuts for people to write Desktop versions of Operating System who are good at Enterprise Servers. Desktops touch the masses and this world belongs to masses as masses are in MAJORITY. Now friends, Let us all contribute. Let us do our bits and be sure we will reign supreme. A Dream of an ideology reigning supreme is not that bad after all. Free software for the brave GNU World. With regards, Tarun Gaur >From: Ajith Kumar <ajith(a)nsc.ernet.in> >To: Tarun Gaur <gaur_tarun(a)hotmail.com> >Subject: Re: [Fsf-friends] Read Richard Stallman's mail >Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 14:33:13 +0530 > >Tarun Gaur wrote: > > > Hi Mr. Ajith > > > > I am shocked at the way you have interpreted my quest for ever >improvement. > > According to your interpretation, all the CRITICS carry some kind of > > infiriority complex ? Brother, i am just asking all my friends to >improve. I > > will quote Richard Stallman's mail posted on fsf-friends, where he says >that > > common user has to be taken serious care of. > >First of all i am not an FSF member. I have used GNU/Linux for >applications >like >particle accelerator control and physics experiments. Nuclear Science >Centre's >control system runs on a network of 6 machines , 24 hours 365 days and I am >yet >to see a >'hanging' OS , running redhat 5.2 distro. I developed it 5 years ago. >We have a Data Acquisition System that is fastest among the other labs >like >BARC etc., >done in Linux. Almost the entire organization uses it for communication, >office work etc. > >I know that it is not perfect. I myself face a lot of problems when try to >convince people to >use it. I had a talk with RMS when he visited NSC in March. He asked me to >give more stress >on spreading the ideology than trying to get more people just using Free >Software. >I spend a lot of time and energy to help schools to use GNU/Linux. >The point is we should not project weaknesses alone, the stregths also >should >be projected at the >same time. > >As far as I know FSF is mainly worrying about how to get the schools in >Kerala to use Free Software. > >with regards > >Ajith _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

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Read Richard Stallman's mail
by Tarun Gaur 29 Nov '02

29 Nov '02

Hi Mr. Ajith I am shocked at the way you have interpreted my quest for ever improvement. According to your interpretation, all the CRITICS carry some kind of infiriority complex ? Brother, i am just asking all my friends to improve. I will quote Richard Stallman's mail posted on fsf-friends, where he says that common user has to be taken serious care of. I have failed to understand why cant we take criticism in the right spirit. Are we so closed in our thinking? Friend i am not bothered about what has been achieved by FSF. I am really curious on how we can improve more. I am very proud of what has been achieved by FSF and am equally aware of where we are lacking. Now please dont tell be that we are perfect. THERE IS A LOT OF SCOPE OF IMPROVEMENT and I am doing my bit for it in 3 projects at GNU. My criticism has been taken very well at the global forums. Our Indian fourm is the only place where some people are taking a negative view of it. Brothers please cool down, this is a quest for improvement not any kind of infiriority complex. i would be really proud to have someone from FSF-India contribute a mainstream or futuristic project and make it to GNU/Linux OS. Be sure i am working on some projects myself. At the end, It is really easy to judge and comment, but really difficult to contribute. lets worry about contributing. Be sure i am doing my bit. regards, Tarun Gaur >From: Ajith Kumar <ajith(a)nsc.ernet.in> >To: Tarun Gaur <gaur_tarun(a)hotmail.com> >Subject: Re: [Fsf-friends] (no subject) >Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:29:35 +0530 > >Tarun Gaur wrote: > > > Dear friend Suraj, > > > > We live in a world that moves at a very fast pace. In today's world, >people > > value quality over price in most of the situations. And yes cost of > > ownership does matter, but never at the price of quality. > > > > Now, we are evangalists supporting the same movement. A movement that >brings > > people and ideas togather to create free software. It intends to > > realize the vision of a genius called Richard Stallman. > > > > but friend, I have some questions for you. > > > > Do Richard Stallman and GNU ask us not to praise and be aware of what is > > happening in the properietary world ? > > > > Are we hampered by any force to write software as good as the >properietary > > world ? > >I think you have some inferiority complex about Free Software. There are >many >areas free software is better than >proprietary one. Just think about the recent virus attacks on NT servers >running IIS. >Apache fared better. > >we don't need to be that apologetic. Be proud of the good work you are >doing. >Even if you give the 'whole world' for >a single click some people will not be happy if there is not a LOGO of some >big >MNC. > >regards > >ajith _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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The name is changed
by Tarun Gaur 26 Nov '02

26 Nov '02

Hi Suraj, Your advice taken and Accepted.

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Licensing of the software (Seeking Volunteers)
by Tarun Gaur 26 Nov '02

26 Nov '02

Hi Suraj, Your concerns are very good. Be rest assured we are not interested in keeping any rights with ourselves. We firmly believe in free software. For the first project that we are undertaking, we intend to keep it under GNU Lesser General Public License. The reasons are very simple and straight. We do not intend to restrict anyone from using the software for any reason. As for "Linux Internet Information Server", it is something that is widely available on other platforms. Allowing all the (linux) variants to use it with for sure further the cause of Linux. Please let me know of your opinions and we can discuss on the liscencing issue as well. Infact we can collectively decide. regards, Tarun Gaur ... _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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Seeking Volunteers
by Tarun Gaur 26 Nov '02

26 Nov '02

Hi Friends, SEEKING VOLUNTEERS! ZERO ADMINISTRATION SERVERS The ZServers project intends to create highly scalable distributed Servers that require minimum or no configurations, enabling the network administrators scale their networks with ease. The first step in this direction is: Linux Internet Information Server: To give you a head start, In stage I, we intend to create a lookalike of Internet Information Server which can manage ftp, www etc from one point. Keeping the look and feel the same is important as it can help network administrators migrate with ease. we are working on the analaysis of this product and will soon put it across. We invite developers with knowledge of Glade and shell scripts to join hands. Mail me at tarun.gaur(a)i3genesys.com with "ZServers" as the subject. Regards, Tarun Gaur _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

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(no subject)
by Tarun Gaur 24 Nov '02

24 Nov '02

Dear friend Suraj, We live in a world that moves at a very fast pace. In today's world, people value quality over price in most of the situations. And yes cost of ownership does matter, but never at the price of quality. Now, we are evangalists supporting the same movement. A movement that brings people and ideas togather to create free software. It intends to realize the vision of a genius called Richard Stallman. but friend, I have some questions for you. Do Richard Stallman and GNU ask us not to praise and be aware of what is happening in the properietary world ? Are we hampered by any force to write software as good as the properietary world ? when we can accompilsh extremely tech. stuff, does it take a herculian effort to beautify it and simplify the names of the software? Should we ignore the fact that the world leaders should be keenly observed and there success researched to pick up some good things that might help us create FSF into a more formidable force ? My previous posting was to help all our friends realize that we can improve. We can innovate. We can be the best and WE CAN be FREE. We can be technical yet touch the masses. ------------------- by Mr. Suraj -------------------------------------- your question is like, "Do the masses need a hut where they live happily or do they need the latest technology laser enabled cage where they get electrocuted?" We in the Free Software world donot care if our existing software cannot do everything that proprietary guys do. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- REPLY: Friend we have to care and improve. Thats how future is driven. We dont want to be philosophers in minority. Awareness of competetion is the key to "NOT REINVENTING THE WHEEL" and "CREATING BETTER SOFTWARE" WE NEED TO OBSERVE,ACT AND IMPROVE. Now, friend suraj, you are very right when you say praising wont help. So, friends, i give you a head start. We are already working on a project that integrates the "servers" that run on Linux, into services that can be controlled from one point and that minimises the administration. I invite all my friends to come and join me in the endeavor. This is a small step towards "Scalable, Distributed Zero Administration Servers" ... We call the project as ZServers. Friends, this project is the first in line ... We in pune are working in three different teams of 10 people each on some amazing software for linux. We indend to throw all the software to FSF one by one. If any of my friends are interested to join hands ... Please mail me at: tarun.gaur(a)i3genesys.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Once Aki morito (Sony) was having a different opinion than his collegue. They had a heated disscussion. When Aki was asked about his reaction by another friend ... he said : If we agree to the same things, then one of us is redundant. We respect difference of opinion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- leave you with this thought, Tarun Gaur >From: Suraj Kumar <suraj(a)symonds.net> >To: Tarun Gaur <gaur_tarun(a)hotmail.com> >CC: fsf-friends(a)mm.gnu.org.in, fsf-discuss(a)mm.gnu.org.in >Subject: Re: [Fsf-friends] Lets Introspect and watch competition ... >Date: 24 Nov 2002 16:51:04 +0530 > > > DO YOU THINK WE (INTELLIGENT TECHIES) CAN REACH MASSES THIS WAY ? > > DO THE MASSES NEED "FREE SOFTWARE" OR "FREE GOOD AND EASY TO USE >SOFTWARE" > > ... > >your question is like, "Do the masses need a hut where they live happily >or do they need the latest technology laser enabled cage where they get >electrocuted?" > >We in the Free Software world donot care if our existing software cannot >do everything that proprietary guys do. Agreed, there may be a good >number of bleeding edge stuff coming out from the proprietary world. All >the bleeding edge becomes _their_ property. and its not something you >can enhance. Infact there have been a lot of such "bleeding edge" stuff >that donot let us even use it for any purpose. I have heard ppl from >research labs like the ISRO say that they had to reinvent the wheel many >a times just because an available proprietary software does not let them >use it for space research. As a programmer, Proprietary software is >_definitely_ not the best thing you can have. You can't modify it to fit >your purpose (atleast without paying a hefty sum to the owner of the >software). It is only something that you can keep "praising". do you >really want to do nothing in your life better than praising something >that does not give you the freedom? > >We are here to build a better place. Information needs to be free and >that will _not_ happen when its in the hands of people who talk about >'intellectual property'. Software will be useful in all the possible >ways only when its free. And thats where we in the Free Software world >give more powerful software to the masses than what the proprietary guys >do. > >Join hands, if at all you wanted to, we can write _good_ software. You >see, the word "good" has two meanings. :) > > -Suraj >-- >+--------------------------------------------<suraj(a)symonds.net>---+ >|I became conscious of the pangs of pallor in the absence | >|of my lover, as we see darkness in the absence of light | >|(pain of pallor and sallowness - 6), Thirukkural | >+---<http://symonds.net/~suraj/>-----------------------------------+ _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

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Lets Introspect and watch competition ...
by Tarun Gaur 24 Nov '02

24 Nov '02

Hi Friends, This is my first mail to the community and be rest assured i am going to push this thing thru for a long time to come. In this first mail, i am keeping the topic of discussion very very generic. LETS INTROSPECT AND WATCH COMPETETION ... Is it mere incedental that when we talk of competition to FSF like revolution, name of Microsoft cant be avoided (we may like it or not). To give my friends an insight into microsoft future corp , i would really recommend you folks to take a look at this : http://www.research.microsoft.com/research/projects/ Now lets look at where we stand ... http://www.gnu.org/projects/projects.html We are no doubts as good as the folks at microsoft ... But we carry VERY GOOD HABITS of Naming our projects in greek and latin. and more so complicating the description of software even more. Just to add another example, look at the names of the utilities that come bundled with Red Hat/SuSe/GNU Linux versions etc. They are really good at scaring away a common user. (I have asked a lot of end users this question, and be sure they all agree). DO YOU THINK WE (INTELLIGENT TECHIES) CAN REACH MASSES THIS WAY ? DO THE MASSES NEED "FREE SOFTWARE" OR "FREE GOOD AND EASY TO USE SOFTWARE" ... _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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fsf-discuss November 2002