Hi list,
A recent experience has left me horrified. I was recently at an Airtel relationship center. Their PoS terminal for paying bills via cash/cheques was running windoze ( Some NT variant ). To my horror the system constantly kept on popping up a message - "You have been infected by ...blah blah blah....". This message was of some vague antivirus but not the well known McAffee or Norton. If their PoS running windoze can get infected with a virus then what about the data of countless customers inside that terminal? Afterall it is connected to the internet and anybody can easily hijack it! :O
[rant] I am not an Airtel customer anymore but I really wish they continue using Windoze and go out of business soon... :/ May they crash and burn in hell until eternity! >:( [/rant]
Ahem...shouldn't somebody bring this to the notice of the media? I mean I can imagine the amount of negative publicity it can bring to M$ ( and not to mention Airtel hahahahaa... ). Weren't their website so insecure that anybody could easily get the itemized bills of any arbitrary customer?
So this got me thinking...with the recent "awareness" of better security in the digital domain shouldn't these corporates use Linux based solutions which are inherently more secure AND stable? What is stopping the adoption of Linux??
On 22/09/06, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
Hi list,
A recent experience has left me horrified. I was recently at an Airtel relationship center. Their PoS terminal for paying bills via cash/cheques was running windoze ( Some NT variant ). To my horror the system constantly kept on popping up a message - "You have been infected by ...blah blah blah....". This message was of some vague antivirus but not the well known McAffee or Norton. If their PoS running windoze can get infected with a virus then what about the data of countless customers inside that terminal? Afterall it is connected to the internet and anybody can easily hijack it! :O
Believe it or not, even before I read the first few lines, I knew your horrification must be linked with the m$ system. afterall who except the locle hardware venders are horrified by linux? un ko kya hain, security, stability efficiency gai bho ... main. apna kam banta to ... main jaye janta. exactly like cold drinks putting harmful chemicals. they only want to earn quick money. if people's helth gets spoilt who care. similarly fair and lovely creem is spredding a wrong notion that only fair girls are clever, confident and sexy. I love vittish colour and I know many do. windows is just a similar brand and bil is one person who cares a dam for others.
[rant] I am not an Airtel customer anymore but I really wish they continue using Windoze and go out of business soon... :/ May they crash and burn in hell until eternity! >:( [/rant]
frankly I have no personal grudge against airtell or even microsoft. but the thing is that every person needs to understand one basic thing. you can also earn money by doing good things. earning money by making people happy is a noble thing. may bil gaits get this good wisdom some day. and if he can't and I believe he wont, at least we all people must get together and try to market neither software efficiency nor security but market just the truth. and the truth of pure business and freedom in IT Means gnu/linux. and add the bonus of power and virus free system.
Ahem...shouldn't somebody bring this to the notice of the media? I mean I can imagine the amount of negative publicity it can bring to M$ ( and not to mention Airtel hahahahaa... ). Weren't their website so insecure
again I don't want any anti publicity but I am not the big b of m$ who cares a dam for the people who have indeed made him so rich. and if gnu/linux is the tool to make people's IT experience true, transperent and powerful, I will go all out to give it a publicity. With respect to media, Shradha, our new ilug member is currently working in Sahara, I hope she is reading this email, never the less she is sharing my knowledge of c and python these days so we meet every day.
that anybody could easily get the itemized bills of any arbitrary customer?
yes, let me go one step ahead and Dr. Nagarjuna, jtd, roni and Dinesh will all agree, imagine a condition, there is a fully computerised hospitle, and there is a very emergency opperation going on. the doctor presses a few keys on his laptop which is connected to the dredded windows server. due to virus or other harmful scripts, the data is currupt, and by mistake the data leads to injecting wrong group of blood. the patient gets killed. who do you think murdered the patient? of course the owner of windows. remember although you have license and pay for windows you don't own it.
So this got me thinking...with the recent "awareness" of better security in the digital domain shouldn't these corporates use Linux based solutions which are inherently more secure AND stable? What is stopping the adoption of Linux??
Dear Mr Dinesh, where were you for so many days. seams we must meet some day. Infact if you have read my previous thread I posted the same question. and jtd, roni etc are giving wonderful and precious feedback. Krishnakant.
On Friday 22 September 2006 00:38, krishnakant Mane wrote:
On 22/09/06, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
Hi list,
f
their PoS running windoze can get infected with a virus then what about the data of countless customers inside that terminal?
POS? that small whiny gizmo at the corner of mom-n-pop stores?. How about ATMs. Yo those big multicolored splendours all touchy feely thingies with a guard outside for added effect. In 2004 one of the big banks had 600 of their ATMs infected by a trojan. The ATM co scrambled like mad to REINSTALL the OS. Are there anymore trojans - rubbish says IT MAN we got antivirus. This was after OS2 was replaced by better malware. Why not linux? the code is available so it can be hacked by anyone says IT MAN.
frankly I have no personal grudge against airtell or even microsoft.
Ahh wait till M$ monkey punches your next project with new "extensions" of standards.
Ahem...shouldn't somebody bring this to the notice of the media? I mean I can imagine the amount of negative publicity it can bring to M$ ( and not to mention Airtel hahahahaa... ). Weren't their website so insecure
AD spend my friend. U wanta get them ads in your paper / channel or not? So stupid reporter with hot story from hippy haired commies goes to subed who refers to boss who has a fit. Reporter logs in bio to naukri.com.
yes, let me go one step ahead and Dr. Nagarjuna, jtd, roni and Dinesh will all agree, imagine a condition, there is a fully computerised hospitle,
Avoid computerised OT like the plague. They are filled with every type of ultraresistant bacteria. If the wrong injection does not get u, the very alive and kicking virus will. U see u cant disinfect electronic stuff in an autoclave.
So this got me thinking...with the recent "awareness" of better security in the digital domain shouldn't these corporates use Linux based solutions which are inherently more secure AND stable? What is stopping the adoption of Linux??
Ad spend and branding and legacy apps and IT boneheads and patented tech and NDA for hardware specs and... Actually nothing is. GNU/Linux adoption will follow the natural spreading curve of any living creature in an environment. It takes time but is absolutely unstoppable.
hello Dinesh and jtd. as I said earlier from the experiences I got while trying to convince customers to use linux, the two most common reasons they will give are, 1. linux is just a toy of research students and can't be used where critical data is being used. it is a kind of time pass lab experiment just to show we can do some thing against m$ so it has nothing to do with real work. 2. it can't be used because it is very difficult to learn and unlike windows it is not at all user friendly. the system wont even manage to do common tasks like surffing the internet and playing movies, let alone doing serious work. no hardware is properly supported by linux and some hardware guys even tell their clients that it will damage your hadware. that's why I time and again appreciate microsoft for its great marketing brains. these people who never even saw some high school drop out called Bil gaits, just fall to his feet. I even have an example of how deep this is. a few people asked me "if you don't have windows then how do you manage to start your computer"? although this is disappointing, this is the current condition. this is what stops people from using the tru, pure and free (of virus) OS. it is not so easy to break the market circle of microsoft. regards. Krishnakant.
On 22/09/06 10:47 +0530, krishnakant Mane wrote:
hello Dinesh and jtd. as I said earlier from the experiences I got while trying to convince customers to use linux, the two most common reasons they will give are,
- linux is just a toy of research students and can't be used where
critical data is being used. it is a kind of time pass lab experiment just to show we can do some thing against m$ so it has nothing to do with real work.
Hmmm, perhaps they need to speak to Cisco, Nortel, Dlink, IBM, HP, NTT, Reliance, NIC, LIC ....
- it can't be used because it is very difficult to learn and unlike
windows it is not at all user friendly. the system wont even manage to do common tasks like surffing the internet and playing movies, let alone doing serious work. no hardware is properly supported by linux and some hardware guys even tell their clients that it will damage your hadware.
The easiest answer to that is to carry a laptop along and actually demonstrate these things.
that's why I time and again appreciate microsoft for its great marketing brains. these people who never even saw some high school
Lying, and using illegal means to obtain and enforce a monopoly? Ask them if they support organised crime :).
drop out called Bil gaits, just fall to his feet. I even have an example of how deep this is. a few people asked me "if you don't have windows then how do you manage to start your computer"? although this is disappointing, this is the current condition. this is what stops people from using the tru, pure and free (of virus) OS. it is not so easy to break the market circle of microsoft.
The point is, you don't have to break that monopoly directly. Just insist on using open formats and let everyone use the tools they want. Don't send me a word document, send it to me in ODP is a much smarter way of breaking the Office monopoly.
Breaking office will do more to hurt MSFT than trying to remove Windows.
Devdas Bhagat
On 22/09/06, Devdas Bhagat devdas@dvb.homelinux.org wrote:
Hmmm, perhaps they need to speak to Cisco, Nortel, Dlink, IBM, HP, NTT, Reliance, NIC, LIC ....
they do agree. but just a couple of days back one of my clients was told by his hardware ghy that these big companies used it for research because they have their own r and d department. so it is not the toy of common businessman. you can very often loos data with linux. "how funny!"
The easiest answer to that is to carry a laptop along and actually demonstrate these things.
yes, I do it some times. but the quick answer comes "it is because you got all configured on your laptop since you want to market it. we are sure that the moment you try this on other computers you will have a lot of trouble doing it and we will loos our time and business.
Lying, and using illegal means to obtain and enforce a monopoly? Ask them if they support organised crime :).
for that matter people should except that this is a crime. today government in india does nothing against pyratted software. most oftenly my clients are aware that their hardware guy has put an illeagul and pyrated copy. but the response is "sab chalta hain". and no matter what, windows is well tried and tested and business will only work on that. "your linux or what ever might look good on ur laptop or one of my time pass computer, but windows is windows". and open standards? no one even knows what is odt. people who did get linux installed on their computers got so on one condition "my word documents should work and I should be able to make word documents". and "I should be able to communicate with windows users ". so they wont care for open or close standards. un ko kuch padi nahin hain freedom ki. Krishnakant.
On 9/22/06, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
". so they wont care for open or close standards. un ko kuch padi nahin hain freedom ki. Krishnakant.
Right. All they care about is money. So anything that generates money without any problems is music to their ears.
It might help you to do a cost analysis for their specific business and show them how much it helps them make _more_ money. not save money. Remember more money speaks everything. Quote MS information for creating huge TCO for maintaining MS stuff. Use latest MS products for costing. Add duties to hardware.. give a breakup and show how bleak their future is, now that NOBODY is going to support win98 and soon 2000 ....
Oh and while you are at it you might tell them how MS is hunting down customers with pirated software and spread every possible FUD about pirated software crackdowns and quoting the fines and how so and so got jacked. And also about patents.
So keep pestering and spreading the word. Its a trickle down effect and not a quick switch. We do our job of spreading the word and the people forced to use MS look up to us at work ;)
regards, C
On Friday 22 September 2006 13:04, Chetan S wrote:
On 9/22/06, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
". so they wont care for open or close standards. un ko kuch padi nahin hain freedom ki. Krishnakant.
Right. All they care about is money. So anything that generates money without any problems is music to their ears.
snip
while what u say is absolutely correct, the point is that are u an ethical businessman. If u are u choose similiar like minded people to do business with. If your client doesnt care about licence u can call up nasscom and nail the installer as well as the customer. U will still make money as M$ (and most other prop software cos ) will give u a hefty cut in the loot.
As other posts suggest there are innumerable successful strategies and tactics to follow. But there are very few non destructive ones to counter crooked customers. I simply walk out of any place that says they dont care about licencing issues cause i want customers who will survive the long haul and unethical ones are not going to last very long. Moreover the same crooked yardstick will be applied to you. a very unhealthy business situation on which to waste time if u ask me.
On 22/09/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
while what u say is absolutely correct, the point is that are u an ethical businessman. If u are u choose similiar like minded people to do business with. If your client doesnt care about licence u can call up nasscom and nail the installer as well as the customer. U will still make money as M$ (and most other prop software cos ) will give u a hefty cut in the loot.
hmm, not a bad idea. afterall as I say I like to earn money by making people happy not cheeting them, I also will like to earn money by being a part of a punishing system to these un ethical people. rather I would love to loot these people and put the money to good use like what redhat does for marketing linux. may be we will do it more ethically than even redhat. one case is Gandhi technical institute. Mr. Phadke the director of that government institute, got a big donation from m$ in cash and also a few windows computers. I know him personally. and while at his house at gore gaon, he told me that he has started a big project on linux traning and using that same money. I have been to his institute and there is a big linux lab. I think this is a nice policy to loot these people and use the money for good things.
As other posts suggest there are innumerable successful strategies and tactics to follow. But there are very few non destructive ones to counter crooked customers. I simply walk out of any place that says they dont care about licencing issues cause i want customers who will survive the long haul and unethical ones are not going to last very long. Moreover the same crooked yardstick will be applied to you. a very unhealthy business situation on which to waste time if u ask me.
well as I said above every thing is fair in love and war. and this is the war of truth and reality. so distructive or non distructive, some policy like telling nascom is really good. it will basically serve 2 things. firstly, we will have live case studies of people who were fined for using pyrated softwares. so we can tell people that such things indeed happen, specially to those who say "India may sab chalta hain". and secondly if we really can get some money out of that loot, a person like me can use if for promoting linux. may be we can have another canonical in the making with the help of money? and if there are more such raids then importance of free software will increase all the more. Krishnakant.
Hello Krish,
Your strategy for promoting linux is too focused on attacking M$. Forget MS and its usage. Promote linux purely on its own strengths and to people who *deserve* linux. Just as any marketing strategy, first be very clear on what you exactly want to offer to your clients and what can you actually offer. The hardware guys who do AMCs for the clients are not your target, so don't bother about their opinion. Keep yourself ready for anti-linux barbs and jabs and be clear in your response. Provide maximum examples of existing linux systems to shut your opponents up.
If you see a market for porting foxpro based solutions onto linux, then on your laptop, create a working demo of the same and show it to your potential clients so there is minimum talk and maximum presentation. Avoid disrupting the client's working setup. You are a salesman selling a product, not a concept, so be ready with your product.
Regards,
Rony.
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On 23/09/06, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Hello Krish,
ah, just was wondering why u were keeping quite.
Your strategy for promoting linux is too focused on attacking M$. Forget MS and its usage. Promote linux purely on its own strengths and to people who *deserve* linux.
wrong, I have clearly said I am not against any one personally. but the point is I am trying to seek out points and tips to market nothing but the truth. and I am aware that doing this is a big task. may be we might perhaps never be able to touch certain sectores and wont be allrounders like M$.
Just as any marketing strategy, first be very clear on what you exactly want to offer to your clients and what can you actually offer.
I suppose I made it very clear. make people believe in the concept of free software and convince them that windows or similar products actually will harm them if not now then in the short future. that's why I am trying to find out impressive points that can be put forth to the clients except names of big companys. because it is a wrong notion that these big companies are doing r and d with linux and not using them for real work. till this concept of "windows is for real work and linux is just trial and research" does not go, we can't do any thing about it.
The hardware guys who do AMCs for the clients are not your target, so don't bother about their opinion. Keep yourself ready for anti-linux barbs and jabs and be clear in your response.
roni, here the matter is not really of clear response. every one claims that by telling clients who uses linux will convince them for example. but that does not happen. rather than being clear, we will also have to be a bit tat full and clever. because even when I am clear with my response and speaking the pure truth, I fail to convince the people just for a simple reason I told you over the phone in the morning. they don't want me to take over their clients because even those hardware guys know that once I put linux on machines they are loosing clients. so rather I will put your point in a different way. we must actually care what the hardware guys say and find some points due to which rather than me, the customer himself should care a dam for his hardware guys openion. that will boost our chances of at least once installing linux some where in the clients work space on any of the computers. and yes no matter what u tell them, they will say "I never herd about this product and no one I heard uses it".
Provide maximum examples of existing linux systems to shut your opponents up.
again, this is not proving as effective as it can. roni, this seams to be a common thing people are telling me. I think in that case, may be I am not doing some thing right. I will perhaps request some of you guys to help me out in this and roni in particular. may be what jtd suggested will be a nice thing. trap a few people in with nascom and then show those cases to people and create fear, uncertainty and doubt in their minds. or at least say so that such things can happen.
If you see a market for porting foxpro based solutions onto linux, then on your laptop, create a working demo of the same and show it to your potential clients so there is minimum talk and maximum presentation.
wow, again that's a wonderful suggestion. that may perhaps put one point streight through. as is claimed that linux can't work on real businesses, if I use your idea that may partially set the cat amongst the pejans in the hardware guys. because once I show them that their software can work on linux, they are rest ashured that linux is a serious and professional desktop that can be used for business. so although fear is not gone, uncertainty will surely go. once we demonstrate that, then may be we will find out the ways to convince them that this is much stable and secured. but as you rightly said they must at least see one thing in real to believe my words. so running their software is wonderful. thanks for the suggestion roni.
Avoid disrupting the client's working setup. You are a salesman selling a product, not a concept, so be ready with your product.
no, freedom of IT is also a concept and linux a product. and we need to convince the people that this is a new concept.
Krishnakant.
Hi Rony,
On 9/23/06, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Hello Krish,
Your strategy for promoting linux is too focused on attacking M$. Forget MS and its usage. Promote linux purely on its own strengths and to people who *deserve* linux. Just as any marketing strategy, first be very clear on what you exactly want to offer to your clients and what can you actually offer. The hardware guys who do AMCs for the clients are not your target, so don't bother about their opinion. Keep yourself ready for anti-linux barbs and jabs and be clear in your response. Provide maximum examples of existing linux systems to shut your opponents up.
I completely agree with you Rony. When you attack your opponent you are generally seen in poor light.
If you see a market for porting foxpro based solutions onto linux, then on your laptop, create a working demo of the same and show it to your potential clients so there is minimum talk and maximum presentation. Avoid disrupting the client's working setup. You are a salesman selling a product, not a concept, so be ready with your product.
Indeed, instead of a rant show them what is possible and what "advantage" the customer is going to get.
I also feel that Chetan's strategy is very sound. But make sure that whatever FUD you give is backed by facts. :-)
Regards,
Rony.
With regards,
On 22/09/06, Dinesh Shah dineshah@gmail.com wrote:
I completely agree with you Rony. When you attack your opponent you are generally seen in poor light.
Roni and dinesh, please read my previous email and also one more in this same thread. I clearly mentioned I am not attacking any one. I just want to market the truth.
Indeed, instead of a rant show them what is possible and what "advantage" the customer is going to get.
very good. again I may repeat as in my previous email, this is what I want, this is why I am increasing this thread. keep on dropping good ideas. we all must take this up seriously. what dinesh, jtd, roni and chetan say even I also want the same thing. I am just telling what clients say. and I think showing them that their own customised softwares work well on linux is a brillient idea roni gave. add the virus free nature and fearless updates to the system without being frightened of data spy etc is a bonus.
I also feel that Chetan's strategy is very sound. But make sure that whatever FUD you give is backed by facts. :-)
I may go one step ahead and say, only give facts first and also cleverly make it a "raee ka pahad". infact some facts need to be hegjazarated. after we demonstrate the facts, make them afraid of things so much so that they fear business loss. because it is natural tendency of a person that when one fear is in real existance, they are afraid of 10 othres weather they exist or not. even what jtd suggested was nice. I think afterall some can be convinced that this is a real system. so that we can use them as testimonials and case studies. I have already given a money back promis to a person that in next 6 months there will be no virus attack on his complete linux machine, and unless there is no big issue the system will work very well in general. and by the way dinesh, roni, jtd, can you all please help me spear head this nice movement of free software marketing? I will be more than happy if I could meet all you guys and may6 be we can discuss this in details. I have an excelent marketing personal who just needs proper facts and well organised data with idea. he can make wonderful market out of it. regards krishnakant.
On Friday 22 September 2006 21:37, krishnakant Mane wrote:
On 22/09/06, Dinesh Shah dineshah@gmail.com wrote:
I completely agree with you Rony. When you attack your opponent you are generally seen in poor light.
Roni and dinesh, please read my previous email and also one more in this same thread. I clearly mentioned I am not attacking any one. I just want to market the truth.
Indeed, instead of a rant show them what is possible and what "advantage" the customer is going to get.
. I have already given a money back promis to a person that in next 6 months
That is one more tactic I follow and forgot to mention. If i feel the customer is a fence sitter, I make the offer of pay after things are working satisfactorily. But make absolutely sure that u define clearly what is satisfactory and expect to show 50% more than that definition. Also regarding hostile hardware vendors, I have the advantage of casual name dropping on past projects and huge experience in the industry, which invariably hangs the guy like an XP box - only a boot will help him.
there will be no virus attack on his complete linux machine, and unless there is no big issue the system will work very well in general.
A virus attack sends out confidetial info. Besides, a doze box sends data any way. And nothing like a live demo of exploits.
Setup a linux proxy. Setup the client doze box to connect to the net via the proxy tail -f /var/log/squid/access.log on the linux box. U will find windoze / AVG / Norton / sundry trojans sending packets to the yonder. Tell the small biz man about how he is mince meat. Tell him that the IT dept just floated a tender for 20K machines and the ST guys are employing net spies to snoop his data. Tell him this is the simple test. There are other methods like backdoors / dns spoofing / unicode exploit (forgot what it's called) / add your scaremonger thing.
If the customer is ok but the hardware guy is a problem ask him to attack your machine and offer to do the same to his machine - by software ofcourse. Good ole "lets u and me fight". everyone loves a good fight no. Of course load several exploits on to your machine for just such a demo. There are tons on the net.
Krishnakant u are making us into mecenaries ;-).
--- Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Hello Krish,
Your strategy for promoting linux is too focused on attacking M$. Forget MS and its usage. Promote linux purely on its own strengths
Why do you want to pitch to corporates? Let the evil corporations use substandard resource hungry products and die.
Then the meek shall inherit the Earth.
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On 22/09/06 10:45 -0700, Abhishek Daga wrote:
--- Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Hello Krish,
Your strategy for promoting linux is too focused on attacking M$. Forget MS and its usage. Promote linux purely on its own strengths
Why do you want to pitch to corporates? Let the evil corporations use substandard resource hungry products and die.
Who do you want to pitch to then?
Devdas Bhagat
20 mails on this subject and nobody has mentioned one of the main factors major corporates care most about. I'm talking about the "Who's responsible for an f-up?" or "Passing the buck." factor.
A common scenario would be something like this. A server running Windows 2003 fails due to a problem with the OS. The business owner of the server screams at the IT Manager, who inturn screams at the techs. The techs promply point a finger at Microsoft who is ever willing to bend over, take it up the tailpipe and provide a solution/workaround ASAP, ie. if the company is a "Gold" customer. I have seen this happen, and I believe that this is a common occurance as most major corporates end up being Gold customers of Microsoft.
And this is not just with Microsoft, a recent incident that I came across proved this.
A certain corporate has a very large mail setup, several servers hosting thousands of POP mailboxes. The OS used here was RH7.3 or RH9. A decision is taken to cut down the number of servers that mailboxes reside on to two. The hardware selected was powerful intel based hardware from Sun. The OS of choice was Centos 4.0 because it was recommended by the vendor who supported the mail servers. A hardware related hiccup caused the corporate to refer the matter to Sun who promply refused to provide support. The reason cited for the refusal was that the boxes were certified for RHEL and not Centos, so Sun wouldn't be responsible for problems. After being stung by something like this, the business side decided that the servers are to be migrated to Solaris, and any software distributed with an open source license, specifically if the license/documentation states that "THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED AS IS AND WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY" and that the developer is not resposible for any data loss or other problems arising from using the software. To what extent this decision was adhered to, I don't know.
No matter how much we stress of the benefits of Linux instead of Windows, the question of accountability for problems with the software and who is going to fix it will always be a stumbling block. Agreed that GNU/Linux distributions have much lesser problems than the competitor, but the corporates want someone to turn to or someone to blame for the problems they face, and that *someone* should be able to fix the problem or provide a workaround promptly. Microsoft seems to be doing that pretty well.
Any comments on this case?
On 24/09/06, Vivek J. Patankar list307@gmail.com wrote:
20 mails on this subject and nobody has mentioned one of the main factors major corporates care most about. I'm talking about the "Who's responsible for an f-up?" or "Passing the buck." factor.
A common scenario would be something like this. A server running Windows 2003 fails due to a problem with the OS. The business owner of the server screams at the IT Manager, who inturn screams at the techs. The techs promply point a finger at Microsoft who is ever willing to bend over, take it up the tailpipe and provide a solution/workaround ASAP, ie. if the company is a "Gold" customer.
dude, with gnu/linux every one is a gold customer. and the support is quick enough. if you by it from redhat, they help you. and even before they do, ask the community such as ilug.
I have seen this happen, and I believe that this is a common occurance as most major corporates end up being Gold customers of Microsoft.
yes a golden cage indeed? and just give all ur data to the biggest spy whare"M$". today I am only waiting for that beautiful screen reader called orca. and listen m$ guys, the moment that is released in late november, ur windows days on my computer are gone!
A certain corporate has a very large mail setup, several servers hosting thousands of POP mailboxes. The OS used here was RH7.3 or RH9. A decision is taken to cut down the number of servers that mailboxes reside on to two. The hardware selected was powerful intel based hardware from Sun. The OS of choice was Centos 4.0 because it was recommended by the vendor who supported the mail servers. A hardware related hiccup caused the corporate to refer the matter to Sun who promply refused to provide support. The reason cited for the refusal was that the boxes were certified for RHEL and not Centos, so Sun wouldn't be responsible for problems.
this is the problem of an organisation not of gnu/linux. and I will give you many cases of m$ of a similar case. and the biggest example is "we are coming up with a new version. buy it and get ur problem solved (with millions of other security bugs)." this is m$ for you my dear, this is m$ for you.
After being stung by something like this, the business side decided that the servers are to be migrated to Solaris, and any software distributed with an open source license, specifically if the license/documentation states that "THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED AS IS AND WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY" and that the developer is not resposible for any data loss or other problems arising from using the software. To what extent this decision was adhered to, I don't know.
by the way does m$ vorent that all ur data will be safe? does sun do it? do they not say "for all damages, including but not limited to consiquential, insidental, punitive bla bla sun or its licensers will not be liable or responsible?" this is every where. and yet most web servers run apache not the rubbish shit of IIS. may be this is one case of sun or redhat. but again why did the company not turn to the community? and unlike windows which is only provided by M$ gnu/linux has so many enterprise brands to select from. an enterprise level system can be run very well by debian for example. Ubuntu is a good choice, as is IBM Linux. what do you say? Krishnakant.
On 9/24/06, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
dude, with gnu/linux every one is a gold customer. and the support is quick enough. if you by it from redhat, they help you. and even before they do, ask the community such as ilug.
You don't need to convince me. Convince the corporates, they're the ones you're trying to pitch the idea to. They want one rock solid support source that will do the job for them, not a whole lot of sources some of whom might help incase of a problem while others may not. Microsoft, unfortunately, provides them with exactly what they require.
yes a golden cage indeed? and just give all ur data to the biggest spy whare"M$". today I am only waiting for that beautiful screen reader called orca. and listen m$ guys, the moment that is released in late november, ur windows days on my computer are gone!
You are full of hostility. Why are you using this forum to vent your anger with Microsoft, whatever the reasons for that maybe? Not a very mature approach. I believe the topic under discussion is how to market GNU/Linux to corporates. Not bashing the competitor.
this is the problem of an organisation not of gnu/linux. and I will give you many cases of m$ of a similar case. and the biggest example is "we are coming up with a new version. buy it and get ur problem solved (with millions of other security bugs)." this is m$ for you my dear, this is m$ for you.
Standard answer that we hear about in every microsoft bashing session. But this answer doesn't solve the customers problem. The customer wants results, not ideology.
by the way does m$ vorent that all ur data will be safe? does sun do it? do they not say "for all damages, including but not limited to consiquential, insidental, punitive bla bla sun or its licensers will not be liable or responsible?"
That's not the point. The company doesn't want another refusal of service on the basis of a clause that states that one distro of Linux is supported and the other is not. Also, the company is looking for accountability. If it adopts a software for a longterm solution someone has to be resposible for maintainance. They would be more confortable dealing with another corporate than a team of hackers who do this for fun.
may be this is one case of sun or redhat. but again why did the company not turn to the community? and unlike windows which is only provided by M$ gnu/linux has so many enterprise brands to select from. an enterprise level system can be run very well by debian for example. Ubuntu is a good choice, as is IBM Linux. what do you say?
I say that the company did not turn to the community because it's not the CEO's grandmother's PC. It is a production server with customers critical data. Agreed that Microsoft won't take responsibility for data loss, backups will take care of that. But Microsoft will always be there. The hacker who wrote a software will not always be there, and there is no guarantees that someone else may take over from him. Think from the customers POV and try to convince him then. You are trying to market a product, not force your ideology on them.
On 24/09/06 03:09 +0530, Vivek J. Patankar wrote:
On 9/24/06, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
dude, with gnu/linux every one is a gold customer. and the support is quick enough. if you by it from redhat, they help you. and even before they do, ask the community such as ilug.
You don't need to convince me. Convince the corporates, they're the ones you're trying to pitch the idea to. They want one rock solid support source that will do the job for them, not a whole lot of sources some of whom might help incase of a problem while others may not. Microsoft, unfortunately, provides them with exactly what they require.
Or is MSFT _pretending_ to provide them with what they require? *Awaits Microsoft's patch for the latest IE bug*
yes a golden cage indeed? and just give all ur data to the biggest spy whare"M$". today I am only waiting for that beautiful screen reader called orca. and listen m$ guys, the moment that is released in late november, ur windows days on my computer are gone!
You are full of hostility. Why are you using this forum to vent your anger with Microsoft, whatever the reasons for that maybe? Not a very mature approach. I believe the topic under discussion is how to market GNU/Linux to corporates. Not bashing the competitor.
this is the problem of an organisation not of gnu/linux. and I will give you many cases of m$ of a similar case. and the biggest example is "we are coming up with a new version. buy it and get ur problem solved (with millions of other security bugs)." this is m$ for you my dear, this is m$ for you.
Standard answer that we hear about in every microsoft bashing session. But this answer doesn't solve the customers problem. The customer wants results, not ideology.
The customer does have non MSFT choices. The problem with a free market is that you do have to choose.
by the way does m$ vorent that all ur data will be safe? does sun do it? do they not say "for all damages, including but not limited to consiquential, insidental, punitive bla bla sun or its licensers will not be liable or responsible?"
That's not the point. The company doesn't want another refusal of service on the basis of a clause that states that one distro of Linux is supported and the other is not. Also, the company is looking for
And how is this different from the "we support Version X of Windows XP with patchlevel Y" that most enterprise-grade software deals with? Plus, if you want support, then you go with what the vendor supports, or pay them enough to support your special case.
accountability. If it adopts a software for a longterm solution someone has to be resposible for maintainance. They would be more confortable dealing with another corporate than a team of hackers who do this for fun.
Isn't that what RedHat, IBM, Sun, HP, Canonical et al offer?
may be this is one case of sun or redhat. but again why did the company not turn to the community? and unlike windows which is only provided by M$ gnu/linux has so many enterprise brands to select from. an enterprise level system can be run very well by debian for example. Ubuntu is a good choice, as is IBM Linux. what do you say?
I say that the company did not turn to the community because it's not the CEO's grandmother's PC. It is a production server with customers critical data. Agreed that Microsoft won't take responsibility for data loss, backups will take care of that. But Microsoft will always
Microsoft will *not* always be there. Nor will IBM. Just ask the customers of DEC, or Gateway, or .... However, the probability that IBM will actually be able to deliver a solution is higher than the probability that MSFT will deliver a solution.
Microsoft makes its profits from two things: Windows, and Office. If corporates choose to avoid MS specific technologies, they can move away from Microsoft.
be there. The hacker who wrote a software will not always be there, and there is no guarantees that someone else may take over from him.
So stop thinking free beer and think free speech. If the original hacker won't maintain the code, you can pay someone else to do it. With closed source, you don't have that choice. When MSFT says "upgrade", you upgrade.
Think from the customers POV and try to convince him then. You are trying to market a product, not force your ideology on them.
This of ways of marketing other than based on cost alone.
Devdas Bhagat
I will just like to make 3 points here about the discussion and the m$ fan club. firstly again I am repeating for the 3rd time, I don't know about others but I am not against any organisation nor do I have personal grudge against any one. secondly, let the notion be cleared about gnu/linux itself. it is not just a time pass "fun " operating system as some gentelman like to say. it may as well go on ur grand mothers pc and on the most sensetive server as well. it is not a bunch of hackares doing fun with you. it is very serious professional powerful and free (as in speech) operating system. and canonical, redhat, IBM all are not bunch of hackers I suppose. if not then dare to state openly on this thread that yahoo, google, nasa, LIC all use toys to runn their business. and yes, BARC TIFR all just use a time pass operating system written for fun. and all big enterprises including Indofil chemical company pvt ltd, supreme plastic etc.using non m$ technologies all do time pass. thirdly, although my answers sounded typically standard for dinesh, it is yet a reality. as devdas rightly said. m$ also has a tipicle way of cheeting "we now don't support window 9X." and "please upgrade your system because we are thinking of removing the support". is it not real? think about open office, you can even open an ms word 95 document with that. Krishnakant
Hi,
I had a chat with a top security professional in my firm a few days back regarding a similar thing. In his presentation, he had the words "virus" and "antivirus" in almost every slide. So why not erase the problem from root and switch to GNU/Linux or any other *nix based desktop? His answer was simply this "It's client driven. There are some who want nothing other than GNU/Linux and then there are others who want nothing other than Windows. We try to present the alternative to the latter group as it's cost effective for us as well".
Regards,
Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
I had a chat with a top security professional in my firm a few days back regarding a similar thing. In his presentation, he had the words "virus" and "antivirus" in almost every slide. So why not erase the problem from root and switch to GNU/Linux or any other *nix based desktop? His answer was simply this "It's client driven. There are some who want nothing other than GNU/Linux and then there are others who want nothing other than Windows. We try to present the alternative to the latter group as it's cost effective for us as well".
Who are the clients here? If they are employees, then shouldn't they adapt to the environment decided by the company? Can an employee demand to use an OS of his/her own choice even if its insecure?
Regards,
Rony.
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On Sunday 01 October 2006 19:36, Rony wrote:
Who are the clients here? If they are employees, then shouldn't they adapt to the environment decided by the company? Can an employee demand to use an OS of his/her own choice even if its insecure?
Well the organization has to keep its employees happy. One cant force anything on them since resentment will grow, productivity will drop, they will incur extra training costs etc.. etc... :P
On 01/10/06 23:22 +0530, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Sunday 01 October 2006 19:36, Rony wrote:
Who are the clients here? If they are employees, then shouldn't they adapt to the environment decided by the company? Can an employee demand to use an OS of his/her own choice even if its insecure?
Well the organization has to keep its employees happy. One cant force anything on them since resentment will grow, productivity will drop, they will incur extra training costs etc.. etc... :P
Erm, if you are hired to do a job, you do it. You don't have the choice of using non standard operating systems usually. And definitely not in a "procedures driven, systematic, ISO standard, CMM" type company.
Devdas Bhagat
On 10/1/06, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Who are the clients here? If they are employees, then shouldn't they
Not Employees, clients are people for whom the company develops software. Everywhere else they are trying to push a *nix desktop as much as possible.
I had a chat with a top security professional in my firm a few days back regarding a similar thing. In his presentation, he had the words "virus" and "antivirus" in almost every slide
i object to referring to this guy as a 'top security professional'
Well, it's relative. He's the top guy in my firm. I never said anything about him being the top security guy in the world/industry. Either ways, that isn't really worth arguing over.
Siddhesh
On 01-Oct-06, at 7:10 PM, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
I had a chat with a top security professional in my firm a few days back regarding a similar thing. In his presentation, he had the words "virus" and "antivirus" in almost every slide
i object to referring to this guy as a 'top security professional'
On 02/10/06 05:54 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 01-Oct-06, at 7:10 PM, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
I had a chat with a top security professional in my firm a few days back regarding a similar thing. In his presentation, he had the words "virus" and "antivirus" in almost every slide
i object to referring to this guy as a 'top security professional'
Hey, I think I had a set of slides like that too. Makes for great soundbites when you are speaking TCO.
Windows : Infectable by viruses Linux : Not infectable by viruses...
See?
Devdas Bhagat
On Sun, 2006-09-24 at 05:03 +0530, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
<snip/>
Or is MSFT _pretending_ to provide them with what they require? *Awaits Microsoft's patch for the latest IE bug*
DVB, you're _using_ IE? and _waiting_ for a patch?
:)
-gabin
On 25/09/06 09:04 +0530, Gabin Kattukaran wrote:
On Sun, 2006-09-24 at 05:03 +0530, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
<snip/>
Or is MSFT _pretending_ to provide them with what they require? *Awaits Microsoft's patch for the latest IE bug*
DVB, you're _using_ IE?
No, but there are a lot of people out there using it. I merely suffer from the results of their choice (or lack thereof).
and _waiting_ for a patch?
Waiting like a hostage waits for rescue :P
Devdas Bhagat
On Monday 25 September 2006 03:34, Gabin Kattukaran wrote:
On Sun, 2006-09-24 at 05:03 +0530, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
<snip/>
Or is MSFT _pretending_ to provide them with what they require? *Awaits Microsoft's patch for the latest IE bug*
DVB, you're _using_ IE? and _waiting_ for a patch?
:)
Haha...IE doesnt run on Linux ;)
BTW, M$ users are always waiting for patches. Theres nothing to be surprised about. Hehehe :P
On 26-Sep-06, at 3:59 AM, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
Haha...IE doesnt run on Linux ;)
i have ie6 running happily on my kubuntu box - there is even an icon for it on the desktop
On 9/26/06, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
On 26-Sep-06, at 3:59 AM, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
Haha...IE doesnt run on Linux ;)
i have ie6 running happily on my kubuntu box - there is even an icon for it on the desktop
That reminds me. The latest wine does wonders for software which simply isn't available on Linux. IE runs fine. So does flash.
Kris - It would be a good idea to run the software of the local XYZ businessman who loves his system as it is ... under wine and tell him that now on he doesn't have to pay to MS !! Let me remind you - just say. :)
It might be a good idea to make a list of software typically used and make them available on a live cd under wine if their linux counterpart doesn't exist. Once you have a substantial interests from customers send across the figures to the software companies to have a look at the changing interests etc etc...
Meanwhile make sure that sufficient bug-reports go out to wine hq mailing list. They are very prompt, let me tell you. And should help you get most windows based softwares running under wine.
And there are a breed of viruses which simply don't act if they detect wine :)
regards, C
On Tuesday 26 September 2006 02:12, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 26-Sep-06, at 3:59 AM, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
Haha...IE doesnt run on Linux ;)
i have ie6 running happily on my kubuntu box - there is even an icon for it on the desktop
Try reading between the lines once in a while KG! That was supposed to be a /joke/ :P Where is your sense of humor! :(
On 26-Sep-06, at 10:15 PM, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
be a /joke/ :P Where is your sense of humor! :(
sent if for recharging
may be this is one case of sun or redhat. but again why did the company not turn to the community? and unlike windows which is only provided by M$ gnu/linux has so many enterprise brands to select from. an enterprise level system can be run very well by debian for example. Ubuntu is a good choice, as is IBM Linux. what do you say?
Another MS vs GNU quarrel. Costly bandwidth wasted. No Outcome of any kind except egos hurt or blown big.
On 24/09/06 00:49 +0530, Vivek J. Patankar wrote: <snip>
The techs promply point a finger at Microsoft who is ever willing to bend over, take it up the tailpipe and provide a solution/workaround ASAP, ie. if the company is a "Gold" customer.
And if you aren't, they simply tell you: "Sucks to be you".
I have seen this happen, and I believe that this is a common occurance as most major corporates end up being Gold customers of Microsoft.
Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM (or in this case, MSFT).
<snip>
license/documentation states that "THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED AS IS AND WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY" and that the developer is not resposible for any
So they don't use Windows either? The point here is that Sun would support tested versions of the software (in this case, RHEL). they wouldn't support other software, in this case CentOS. The company could have gone to any other Linux vendor, or asked on the CentOS lists for an appropriate vendor, or gone with RHEL.
What they have claimed was just an excuse not to use Linux.
data loss or other problems arising from using the software. To what extent this decision was adhered to, I don't know.
No matter how much we stress of the benefits of Linux instead of Windows, the question of accountability for problems with the software and who is going to fix it will always be a stumbling block. Agreed that GNU/Linux distributions have much lesser problems than the competitor, but the corporates want someone to turn to or someone to blame for the problems they face, and that *someone* should be able to fix the problem or provide a workaround promptly. Microsoft seems to be doing that pretty well.
Riiiiiiiiiight. About the only thing that Microsft fixed quickly was the DRM hole. Welcome to the world for patch Tuesday and Exploit Wednesday.
Any comments on this case?
Microsoft is a company which lies and cheats by policy (and has been convicted in court for this). They have a constant policy of not following open standards, and trying to enforce their own.
For that matter, if corporates want brand name Linux support, they have RedHat, Novell, IBM, Sun, HP, Dell, Canonical, ...
Devdas Bhagat
On 9/24/06, Devdas Bhagat devdas@dvb.homelinux.org wrote:
So they don't use Windows either? The point here is that Sun would support tested versions of the software (in this case, RHEL). they wouldn't support other software, in this case CentOS. The company could have gone to any other Linux vendor, or asked on the CentOS lists for an appropriate vendor, or gone with RHEL. What they have claimed was just an excuse not to use Linux.
As I said in my reply to Mr Mane's post, they just don't want another rejection. They want support, whenever they demand it. In the avenue they chose, they would get it.
On Sunday 24 September 2006 00:49, Vivek J. Patankar wrote:
20 mails on this subject and nobody has mentioned one of the main factors major corporates care most about. I'm talking about the "Who's responsible for an f-up?" or "Passing the buck." factor.
THE IT DEPARTMENT. U dont pay the IT manager to sit on his ass and point fingers. U pay him cause he has the knowledge and ability to solve a problem. If your systems does not confirm to your SLA u sack him. For accountability how about toting up th downtimes. All M$ shop IT managers would be selling vadas at dadar by now. Only that top management knows zero about technology on which they are betting share holders money.
A common scenario would be something like this. A server running Windows 2003 fails due to a problem with the OS. The business owner of the server screams at the IT Manager, who inturn screams at the techs. The techs promply point a finger at Microsoft who is ever willing to bend over, take it up the tailpipe and provide a solution/workaround ASAP, ie. if the company is a "Gold" customer.
ASAP whats that. Pleeease give me an SLA with fix problem ASAP clause overiding all others - O God (no not RMS) where are u.
I have seen this happen, and I believe that this is a common occurance as most major corporates end up being Gold customers of Microsoft.
Read the SLAs - carefully.
And this is not just with Microsoft, a recent incident that I came across proved this.
A certain corporate has a very large mail setup, several servers hosting thousands of POP mailboxes. The OS used here was RH7.3 or RH9. A decision is taken to cut down the number of servers that mailboxes reside on to two. The hardware selected was powerful intel based hardware from Sun.
Intel ...powerful - kinda out of sync the two.
The OS of choice was Centos 4.0 because it was recommended by the vendor who supported the mail servers. A hardware related hiccup caused the corporate to refer the matter to Sun who promply refused to provide support. The reason cited for the refusal was that the boxes were certified for RHEL and not Centos, so Sun wouldn't be responsible for problems. After being stung by something like this,
Get the IT manager or whoever drew up the SLA and signed it.
the business side decided that the servers are to be migrated to Solaris, and any software distributed with an open source license,
Tell business to define in lay language what they want and stop interfering in Tech thay have no clue about after all IT does not tell them whom or on what terms they should do business with. This is the exact words i used in a meeting last month. Result - uproar and words abt ownership and responsibility etc. Which was exactly the point. So if u are wise u will purchase hardware, software and maintanence from one entity with u owe us your life clause.
No matter how much we stress of the benefits of Linux instead of Windows, the question of accountability for problems with the software and who is going to fix it will always be a stumbling block.
M$ accountability - read the licence. U are better off throwing your money outa the window. Scrambling every third day, staying awake until 3 in the morn and playing hero is not my idea of responsibility. It means u have a very bad IT dept.
Agreed that GNU/Linux distributions have much lesser problems than the competitor, but the corporates want someone to turn to or someone to blame for the problems they face, and that *someone* should be able to fix the problem or provide a workaround promptly. Microsoft seems to be doing that pretty well.
Strange. That u require something known as antivirus for papering holes bigger than the backdoors. The corporate IT honchos need a brain transplant pronto.
Any comments on this case?
The wrong conclusion derived from wrong logic. Badly defined vendor roles somehow twisted to show that GNU software is bad cause the IT guy wants to point fingers to cover his incompetence. And since GNU software does not permit such pointless combo of requirements it wont do well. So inorder to do "well" (allow sundry characters to make money and yet other sundry characters to cover incompetence while paying money) GNU software vendors must do business in a way that allows such cases especially since such cases are widespread.
While a solution exists for such cases, it is not what u seem to suggest at all. And the casualty will be the IT dept. incumbent.
Sometime on Sunday 24 September 2006 00:49, Vivek J. Patankar said:
After being stung by something like this, the business side decided that the servers are to be migrated to Solaris, and any software distributed with an open source license, specifically if the license/documentation states that "THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED AS IS AND WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY" and that the developer is not resposible for any
No software comes with warranty. Free Software licenses merely mention that clearly in BOLD letters.
Anurag
On 24/09/06, Anurag anurag@gnuer.org wrote:
No software comes with warranty. Free Software licenses merely mention that clearly in BOLD letters.
Anurag
well said anurag. and the flip side of the issue is that companies like redhat, IBM, Canonical etc are infact more keen on support. this is due to 2 major reasons. firstly, service (and support is the biggest one) istheir main source of earning. you are free to download rhl or ubuntu/kubuntu, so if they don't provide support, how will they earn? secondly,they are very much keen to prove their point that even linux servers anddesktops are well supported it is not that only windows or unix for that matter only give you supportpackage. never the less, I have come to the following conclusions after this long discussion and I think Anurag wont mind another 25 emails coming to add to my conclusion *smile*. 1. It is a truth that gnu/linux is best suited for servers and now even desktops. there is no harm or time waistage in using it. 2. unlike some gentelman surcastically said, that linux can only go on the grand mothers pc. and that it is developed and maintained just by a bunch of hackers, the reality, facts and figures all say a different story. it is indeed used for very critical business and for storing sensetive data. 3. if we want to market the product gnu/linux, we will have to show the advantage in terms of stability, security (virus free in bold letters) and that it is free of any license charges. 4. make customres understand that only softwares from enterprises providing free software will benifit them totally and in the long run. I will like few tips from jtd, dinesh, devdas and others on how to present this 4th point and point number 3. 5. make customer speak for himself. make him aware that he needs computer not for playing around with brans but for doing his work, and gnu/linux just like any other operating system does just that but in a more secured stable and efficient way. some how firstly we need to get customer himself agree that he uses computer for word processing, keeping his accounts in spreadsheets etc. which means use of windows or linux is not the brand reason for his use of computers. 6. remove 2 wrong notions about gnu/linux, first, linux is the tool of only scientists or programmers who can remember lot of commands etc. second, gnu/linux is just a time pass expriment. 7. some how raise fear uncertainty and doubt about m$ so that he will consider using some thing else which may be gnu/linux. regards. Krishnakant.
Vivek J. Patankar wrote:
A certain corporate has a very large mail setup, several servers hosting thousands of POP mailboxes. The OS used here was RH7.3 or RH9. A decision is taken to cut down the number of servers that mailboxes reside on to two. The hardware selected was powerful intel based hardware from Sun. The OS of choice was Centos 4.0 because it was recommended by the vendor who supported the mail servers. A hardware related hiccup caused the corporate to refer the matter to Sun who promply refused to provide support. The reason cited for the refusal was that the boxes were certified for RHEL and not Centos, so Sun wouldn't be responsible for problems. After being stung by something like this, the business side decided that the servers are to be migrated to Solaris, and any software distributed with an open source license, specifically if the license/documentation states that "THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED AS IS AND WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY" and that the developer is not resposible for any data loss or other problems arising from using the software. To what extent this decision was adhered to, I don't know.
[snip]
Any comments on this case?
Dear Vivek,
Whenever a big company is looking for installation and maintainence of a huge IT system, it is necessary for the bosses to ensure that their _service_provider_ has the necessary expertise to provide hardware and software support as and when necessary. This service provider for corporates will not be a small company but a proper established one that has experience in handling such big projects. It is for the SP to maintain contacts with the software and hardware companies and the LUG community for facing any eventuality. I am sure there are many big game linux service providers who can provide that kind of IT support.
Regards,
Rony.
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On Saturday 23 September 2006 19:19, Vivek J. Patankar wrote:
A certain corporate has a very large mail setup, several servers hosting thousands of POP mailboxes. The OS used here was RH7.3 or RH9. A decision is taken to cut down the number of servers that mailboxes reside on to two. The hardware selected was powerful intel based hardware from Sun. The OS of choice was Centos 4.0 because it was recommended by the vendor who supported the mail servers. A hardware related hiccup caused the corporate to refer the matter to Sun who promply refused to provide support. The reason cited for the refusal was that the boxes were certified for RHEL and not Centos, so Sun wouldn't be responsible for problems. After being stung by something like this, the business side decided that the servers are to be migrated to Solaris, and any software distributed with an open source license, specifically if the license/documentation states that "THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED AS IS AND WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY" and that the developer is not resposible for any data loss or other problems arising from using the software. To what extent this decision was adhered to, I don't know.
From what I have known the whole business model of OSS is based on _not_ selling the software but rather providing services based off it. Why did the organization choose CentOS over RHEL? Essentially they are the same but AFAIK if they would've chosen RHEL, then they could've gotten support from RH as well as SUN. Didn't they read the agreement details before buying the boxes? I find it hard to believe that a "certain-large-corporation-with-thousands-of-mailboxes" would take chances with support.
On 9/26/06, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
before buying the boxes? I find it hard to believe that a "certain-large-corporation-with-thousands-of-mailboxes" would take chances with support.
Money! I guess they didn't want to spend anything on what they considered free. Somebody should have given them the old "Not free beer" lecture beforehand.
On Monday 25 September 2006 20:18, Vivek J. Patankar wrote:
Money! I guess they didn't want to spend anything on what they considered free. Somebody should have given them the old "Not free beer" lecture beforehand.
Haha....now the picture is absolutely clear to me. Serves them right. Hahaha :) Cheapos...
On Friday 22 September 2006 17:45, Abhishek Daga wrote:
Why do you want to pitch to corporates? Let the evil corporations use substandard resource hungry products and die.
Then the meek shall inherit the Earth.
Because those very corporates have my personal data and I dont like the idea of giving out sensitive info in the hands of Billy boi's borked OS :P
On 26/09/06, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday 22 September 2006 17:45, Abhishek Daga wrote:
Why do you want to pitch to corporates? Let the evil corporations use substandard resource hungry products and die.
Then the meek shall inherit the Earth.
Because those very corporates have my personal data and I dont like the idea of giving out sensitive info in the hands of Billy boi's borked OS :P
yes. and one more thing, my earnest request to every one. please don't bash gnu/linux for wrong enterprise decisions. as Dinesh Joshi wrote in the previous email, that so called "large organisation with 1000s of boxes " had taken the rhl or IBM or canonical support contracts with their distros, they would have been in a better position. it was a wrong decision of the company not the mistake of gnu/linux and the community or corporates basing their business on free software. and "your bunch of hackers " have already seen to it that linux is virus free. Krishnakant.
On 22/09/06 12:40 +0530, krishnakant Mane wrote:
On 22/09/06, Devdas Bhagat devdas@dvb.homelinux.org wrote:
Hmmm, perhaps they need to speak to Cisco, Nortel, Dlink, IBM, HP, NTT, Reliance, NIC, LIC ....
they do agree. but just a couple of days back one of my clients was told by his hardware ghy that these big companies used it for research
OH, all right.
LIC and Canara Bank are big RedHat shops.
The backend for mail.com, usa.com, register.com,.... is production boxes running Linux. As are user desktops, and laptops. This isn't R&D, this is $$$ territory.
Oh, and ms.com uses Linux in production. Those people definitely know about generating profits.
Devdas Bhagat
exactly. but what to say. it is the matter of maintality of people. right now most of my big clients are running linux servers because I could easily convince them to do so. and a couple are now thinking of using linux desktops on their lap tops as well. but that is all to it. those people themselves say "servers are ok but our clearicle staff wont change. and although your data entry client can run on linux, our staff wont change". and these locle baniyas and retaill shops wont even care a dam for it. just a few minutes back one of the retaill customer called up and confirmed that he is not planning to shift to linux and will stull continue with the much stable windows which is tried and tested as his hardware guy told him. "how funny, windows is stable!". I don't think I will ever be able to convince people like this to use linux. this is where I said MR Bil ought to get some appreciation for the brain work although it is used forselfish and bad cause.. it is not a joke to make people believe that some system which is actually the most pathetic and bull shit is the most stable thing. and that computers can't run without it. we need to find out the best way to break this wrong notion. I find great eas to convince big corporates to use it at least on the server. they do except at that level. infact some knowledgeable directors also have it on their laptops. but windows seams to be one fits all needs. knowledgeable or not, directores or baniyas, big business houses or small shopps, every one uses windows. so will we be happy by just saying "ok linux is for only those who have knowledge?". means we should only target a few small fractions of the market? Krishnakant. but how good it is for m$? corporates or local stores windows will runn every where.
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Abhishek Daga -
Anurag -
Chetan S -
Devdas Bhagat -
Dinesh Joshi -
Dinesh Shah -
Gabin Kattukaran -
Harshal Vaidya -
jtd -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
krishnakant Mane -
Rony -
Siddhesh Poyarekar -
Vivek J. Patankar