At 11:54 PM 6/27/2009, દિનà«àª¶ શાહ/दिनà¥à¤¶ wrote:
KK, ... That way you are diluting the meaning of word terrorist - who KILLS INNOCENT PEOPLE without any reason or remorse. ... Let us be responsible in choosing our words. (remember, you objecting to people calling crackers as hackers?)
Nice try Dinesh. But whether you will get through at all to KK is doubtful. In my last interaction with him, he strongly reminded me of Humpty Dumpty (a character in "Through the Looking Glass").
Excerpted from here: http://www.sabian.org/Alice/lgchap06.htm :
<start excerpt>
`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.
`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'
<end excerpt>
On Sun, 2009-06-28 at 00:09 +0530, Prashant Verma wrote:
At 11:54 PM 6/27/2009, દિનà«àª¶ શાહ/दिनà¥à¤¶ wrote:
KK, ... That way you are diluting the meaning of word terrorist - who KILLS INNOCENT PEOPLE without any reason or remorse. ... Let us be responsible in choosing our words. (remember, you objecting to people calling crackers as hackers?)
Nice try Dinesh. But whether you will get through at all to KK is doubtful. In my last interaction with him, he strongly reminded me of Humpty Dumpty (a character in "Through the Looking Glass").
Wow you could not be more correct than this. Thanks a million.
Excerpted from here: http://www.sabian.org/Alice/lgchap06.htm :
<start excerpt>
`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.
`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'
<end excerpt>
Thanks for again reminding me that it was just *i* raising objection on the word hacking in the wrong sence. And till now I thought there were also some stupids like RMS himself backed by huge number of stupids who proved this before *I* said "this is what I mean ". Any ways, There are people who very well know what I say and there are some who really can't understand. But there is a third category who very well knows what I am saying (mind you, I am well known in the FOSS circle by many other stupids ), but although they know they pretend that they dont understand and may be due to the tipicle "badon ki baat suno " attitude are afraid of excepting the reality. I will keep on repeating what I said with the question in context. "will people not have even the basic right of chooseing a browser for a so called web service?"
If raising this issue so strongly in the list rewards me with a ban on account of clever people like Prashant. then good enough. I am a stupid person not even as half clever as you guys are. I just said what a stupid person would say. But unfortunately some people feel that I am speaking the truth and more unfortunately that "some " people is large enough.
happy hacking. Krishnakant.
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 12:09 AM, Prashant Vermapverma@gmail.com wrote:
At 11:54 PM 6/27/2009, દિનેશ શાહ/दिनेश wrote:
KK, ... That way you are diluting the meaning of word terrorist - who KILLS INNOCENT PEOPLE without any reason or remorse. ... Let us be responsible in choosing our words. (remember, you objecting to people calling crackers as hackers?)
Nice try Dinesh. But whether you will get through at all to KK is doubtful. In my last interaction with him, he strongly reminded me of Humpty Dumpty (a character in "Through the Looking Glass").
I never intend to get through to KK. :-) He is RMS++ ;-)
It was directed to people on the list (there are others you know?). And that's why I have used "we" instead of "you". ;-)
Excerpted from here: http://www.sabian.org/Alice/lgchap06.htm :
<start excerpt>
`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.
`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'
<end excerpt>
:-D Nice and apt.
With regards,
On Sun, 2009-06-28 at 00:22 +0530, Dinesh Shah (દિનેશ શાહ/दिनेश शाह) wrote:
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 12:09 AM, Prashant Vermapverma@gmail.com wrote:
At 11:54 PM 6/27/2009, દિનેશ શાહ/दिनेश wrote:
KK, ... That way you are diluting the meaning of word terrorist - who KILLS INNOCENT PEOPLE without any reason or remorse. ... Let us be responsible in choosing our words. (remember, you objecting to people calling crackers as hackers?)
Nice try Dinesh. But whether you will get through at all to KK is doubtful. In my last interaction with him, he strongly reminded me of Humpty Dumpty (a character in "Through the Looking Glass").
I never intend to get through to KK. :-) He is RMS++ ;-)
Thanks Dinesh. But I am not even .01% as great and revolutionary as RMS. If that was a complement then really I don't deserve it. And if that was a tonting statement it also means that RMS is stupid kk ==. And there will be people to talk about this but that's for a later time. I know there are people who talk all kind of crap behind the back of RMS who actually has laid the roots for this huge revolution.
It was directed to people on the list (there are others you know?). And that's why I have used "we" instead of "you". ;-)
Very good. I think every one should follow Prashant's advice of "ignoring me ". but alas, those same people actually respond. And While I am no where near RMS, I would at least make an attempt to carry his message as little as I can. Unfortunately my words carry some waitage thanks to the mentoring I got from the right people at the right time.
Excerpted from here: http://www.sabian.org/Alice/lgchap06.htm :
<start excerpt>
`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.
*glory* for what? I never had it and don't want it like politicians.
`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'
again *I* think again. There are enough evidance of people supporting my arguements.
<end excerpt>
:-D Nice and apt.
good attempt, except that the basic asumtion *i* was wrong.
happy hacking. Krishnakant.
On Sun, 2009-06-28 at 00:22 +0530, Dinesh Shah (દિનેશ શાહ/दिनेश शाह) wrote:
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 12:09 AM, Prashant Vermapverma@gmail.com wrote:
At 11:54 PM 6/27/2009, દિનેશ શાહ/दिनेश wrote:
KK, ... That way you are diluting the meaning of word terrorist - who KILLS INNOCENT PEOPLE without any reason or remorse. ... Let us be responsible in choosing our words. (remember, you objecting to people calling crackers as hackers?)
Nice try Dinesh. But whether you will get through at all to KK is doubtful. In my last interaction with him, he strongly reminded me of Humpty Dumpty (a character in "Through the Looking Glass").
I never intend to get through to KK. :-) He is RMS++ ;-)
It was directed to people on the list (there are others you know?). And that's why I have used "we" instead of "you". ;-)
Excerpted from here: http://www.sabian.org/Alice/lgchap06.htm :
<start excerpt>
`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.
`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'
<end excerpt>
:-D Nice and apt.
And yes, I am already planning to draft an open letter to the concerned authorities. I already know a few people who can take me to the people in context. I hope people would not behave like a "talking shop " and instead of jumping on kk and flaiming him to speak the truth would sign the letter if they are not thinking of "business loss or some other fright ".
happy hacking. Krishnakant.
At 12:37 AM 6/28/2009, Krishnakant wrote:
I already know a few people who can take me to the people in context. I hope people would not behave like a "talking shop " and instead of jumping on kk and flaiming him to speak the truth would sign the letter if they are not thinking of "business loss or some other fright ". happy hacking. Krishnakant. -- http://mm.glug-bom.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
Please make sure you offer to help the people in charge to fix their site. RMS would be happiest if you did that, rather than just carry around (your interpretation of) his message.
Are you also saying that business loss is not worth the concern or thought?
On Sunday 28 June 2009, Prashant Verma wrote:
At 12:37 AM 6/28/2009, Krishnakant wrote:
I already know a few people who can take me to the people in context. I hope people would not behave like a "talking shop " and instead of jumping on kk and flaiming him to speak the truth would sign the letter if they are not thinking of "business loss or some other fright ". happy hacking. Krishnakant. -- http://mm.glug-bom.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
Please make sure you offer to help the people in charge to fix their site. RMS would be happiest if you did that, rather than just carry around (your interpretation of) his message.
Are you also saying that business loss is not worth the concern or thought?
You are joking. The people who awarded and the ones who got the contract should know how to create a proper website. And no, business loss to some moron is not important when it's the public money that's missused. I am speaking in a wider context than not being able to use the website today. The process will be repeated every time a doze upgrade takes place.
My nephew / his dad had to down grade to XP, then again downgrade the browser, then turned off filters on the proxy, before they got in and applied. Ofcourse it crashed a little while later, as people might have figured out the downgrades and reconnected.
At 02:56 AM 6/28/2009, jtd wrote:
On Sunday 28 June 2009, Prashant Verma wrote:
At 12:37 AM 6/28/2009, Krishnakant wrote:....
You are joking. The people who awarded and the ones who got the contract should know how to create a proper website. And no, business loss to some moron is not important when it's the public money that's missused.
Your sentiments are admirable. No issues there. But there are other issues to be considered. For example.. was the job awarded to a contractor, or developed in house? Did the contract terms include support for major browsers, or compliance to the relevant spec? If not, why? Was the contract in violation of govt guidelines? Highly unlikely, because our babus are trained to follow guidelines to a dot. So where is the problem? It's higher up, where guidelines for software procurement are made.
If such guidelines exist and were not followed, follow the due process for lodging a complaint.
It will be more effective to approach the source of the problem, rather than rant and rave at every instance of the problem.
As an example, rather than argue with the owner of every polluting vehicle you see on the road, it is better to request the govt. to enforce the pollution guidelines more strictly. Of course members of shouting brigade will disagree because it takes away the chance from them to shout ;-)
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Prashant Verma wrote:
It will be more effective to approach the source of the problem, rather than rant and rave at every instance of the problem.
Absolutely! Where's the solution? Is MCKL is interested to listen to 'just-another-guy-down-the-street'? Are e-mails to the directors / developers going to help it make better? Is there a "FOSS - ALTERNATIVE" for ready for the production environment? (I assume, one of my similar replies has lead to proverbs coming out as response, but I wonder why!)
As an example, rather than argue with the owner of every polluting vehicle you see on the road, it is better to request the govt. to enforce the pollution guidelines more strictly. Of course members of shouting brigade will disagree because it takes away the chance from them to shout ;-)
<RANT> Well, these things need to change both ways. Citizens have to understand that there's public transport available and can be used at times. Also, people would complain of lack of 'appropriate' public transport. So, just shouting about it doesn't help. Action should be initiated on both sides. Ofcourse, I'm talking of an ideal case, but that, according to me helps us get where we want to. </RANT>
-- Roshan Baladhanvi
On Sunday 28 June 2009, Roshan wrote:
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Prashant Verma wrote:
It will be more effective to approach the source of the problem, rather than rant and rave at every instance of the problem.
Absolutely! Where's the solution? Is MCKL is interested to listen to 'just-another-guy-down-the-street'? Are e-mails to the directors / developers going to help it make better? Is there a "FOSS - ALTERNATIVE" for ready for the production environment? (I assume, one of my similar replies has lead to proverbs coming out as response, but I wonder why!)
For the record it took me THREE hours to get to the two help lines listed on the webpage.
If the government was actually interested in student welfare they would have had the public in a discussion, in the one year that they had, not come up with a dream scheme to screw everyone.
4+ lac students + parents + friends to complete submissions in a few days in a matter that is almost life and death.
Give me break from being anything but explosive.
KK,
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 12:37 AM, Krishnakantkrmane@gmail.com wrote:
:-D Nice and apt.
And yes, I am already planning to draft an open letter to the concerned authorities. I already know a few people who can take me to the people in context. I hope people would not behave like a "talking shop " and instead of jumping on kk and flaiming him to speak the truth would sign the letter if they are not thinking of "business loss or some other fright ".
It's nice of you to take proactive action to address the issues affecting FOSS. When you are ready with draft letter, I would be more then happy to sign it in support.
Now let us look at the possible reasons why you posted this mail on the list and your choice of words.
Are you an aggrieved or an affected party?
This can be yes only if you have appeared for SSC exam ( and passed :-) ) and want to apply for an admission in a junior college or you are parent/guardian of a child who has. I don't think either is true. :-)
Are there any list members who has cleared SSC exam this year? Are there any members whose wards are adversely affected by fyjc.org? I am eager to know.
If you had stopped at just reporting that fyjc.org does not work in a browser of your choice, without abusing the site developer(s) and M$, and asked for support to sign your petition, the mail would have been justified.
You also take umbrage at people if they use a word like "hacking" in wrong context. However, you reserve the right to abuse people and choose not be responsible in using language. :-)
Just attacking the people who are not even on this list is like barking the wrong tree and preaching to the choir. It does not help the CAUSE.
Whenever I have an issue with any site, I write to the site owners/developers to correct the issue. I do not come to the list and heap abuse on the site owner(s)/developer(s). It does not help any one - me, list or site owner/developer.
happy hacking. Krishnakant.
Hope you will take this positively and keep the list sane. :-) With regards,
On Sun, 2009-06-28 at 00:09 +0530, Prashant Verma wrote:
At 11:54 PM 6/27/2009, દિનà«àª¶ શાહ/दिनà¥à¤¶ wrote:
KK, ... That way you are diluting the meaning of word terrorist - who KILLS INNOCENT PEOPLE without any reason or remorse. ... Let us be responsible in choosing our words. (remember, you objecting to people calling crackers as hackers?)
Nice try Dinesh. But whether you will get through at all to KK is doubtful. In my last interaction with him, he strongly reminded me of Humpty Dumpty (a character in "Through the Looking Glass").
Excerpted from here: http://www.sabian.org/Alice/lgchap06.htm :
<start excerpt>
`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.
`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'
<end excerpt>
By the way Prashant, I remember you had decided to ignore my messages? I think there is a bug in your mail client or some thing that you still responded :). Any ways I strongly believe that not giving users choice for a small thing like browser is a crime and i don't care how many agree. Talking about me loosing credibility, well I believe I have enough of it from the people who matter to me personally and those who make a difference. And I don't work for getting "vah vah ". I will say what I observe and feel. This time I said with a presise evidance.
happy hacking. Krishnakant.
At 12:22 AM 6/28/2009, Krishnakant wrote:
Any ways I strongly believe that not giving users choice for a small thing like browser is a crime and i don't care how many agree.
Can you please define 'choice of browser'? How many browsers must any organization support? IE + FF is fine? Or does Opera deserve to be in the list too? What about the numerous other browsers out there? Safari? Do you want IE to be kicked out of the list? Please state clearly what you want.
Also, I believe if you stop ranting on this poor, overused list and offer to help FYJC to fix their site, they may agree. Worth a try.
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 12:40 AM, Prashant Vermapverma@gmail.com wrote:
Can you please define 'choice of browser'? How many browsers must any organization support? IE + FF is fine? Or does Opera deserve to be in the list too? What about the numerous other browsers out there? Safari? Do you want IE to be kicked out of the list? Please state clearly what you want.
HTML, ECMAScript standards compliance when building a website. That's good enough to have a website visible on most browsers, including IE8. If some browser is not able to show a standards compliant website then that browser is broken and needs to be fixed. The trouble is that many people are still using IE6, which is broken with respect to standards compliance.
On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 8:27 PM, Siddhesh Poyarekarsiddhesh.poyarekar@gmail.com wrote: The trouble is that many
people are still using IE6, which is broken with respect to standards compliance.
Completely agree . Browsers which dont follow standards should be boycotted . We should also advise others to use browsers which follow standards.
Re: IE6 there is a campaign on Bringing down IE6 . http://www.bringdownie6.com/ <quote> Internet Explorer 6 is antiquated, doesn’t support key web standards, and should be phased out. This isn’t about being anti-Microsoft, it’s about Microsoft’s lack of development in the browser market. </quote>
This campaign was started by famous web design magazine netmag .
From my part what I did was , I blogged about it .
http://look-pavi.blogspot.com/2009/03/bring-down-ie6.html Interested people can also join the orkut community at http://www.orkut.com/Main#Community.aspx?cmm=56221888 Let's not hurt the web .. let's follow standards both as web designers or browser designers :)
PS : I remember a mozilla badge given at foss.in 2007 which says "dont hurt the web follow standards " :D
Regards, Pavithran
Krishnakant wrote:
Any ways I strongly believe that not giving users choice for a small thing like browser is a crime and i don't care how many agree.
Choosing a browser is not a human right. We quietly use mobile phones with whatever software thats bundled along, simply because we need to make / receive those important calls.
The whole issue is about providing a professional alternative to Windows based programming. As yet it hasn't arrived fully in India. It is happening slowly but Linux programmers are not easy to get.
Nobody is objecting to your opinion on issues, it is your language and choice of words that need some fine tuning. If possible, a spell check utility sprinkled over it as extra topping.
On Sun, 2009-06-28 at 13:25 +0530, Rony wrote:
Krishnakant wrote:
Any ways I strongly believe that not giving users choice for a small thing like browser is a crime and i don't care how many agree.
Choosing a browser is not a human right. We quietly use mobile phones with whatever software thats bundled along, simply because we need to make / receive those important calls.
Choosing any technology is a human right. Right now mobile phones have alternatives to choose from and those who know to do it may do it as wel. Those who don't know, are unaware of the fact that choices do exist. When we have a browser which is more efficient, much more professional and stable, why should the public organisations force people to use one and only one browser. We always find it easy to justify such things because they are done by big people and we have learned the artistic habbit of excepting "we are helpless and should except this as is". But I refuse to take that stand on ethical grounds of freedom.
I will not like if some mobile vendor tells me that I can only have one service and not other. choosing a service provider is my choise and which browser I want use on a machine is also my choice. I hope this sounds sensible for those who justify the other side.
First we will except and justify "what ever is happening is ok and not a big thing ". then when free software supporters want to bring some technology to the common people we will say on the previous justification "however that is not what people will be allowed to use." means first we let government or who ever to decide what we should use and how we should use and since we except that it is not a major issue, we support it. then when some one tryes to bring some thing good, we the "so called supporters of free software " will tell them, "this is not what we can use because ther other technology is quite deeprooted ". but if we raise our voices at the very beginning, may be the situation can be better. Any ways, for some business people or "typicle " vendors what I say does not make sence. for them all that mints money is fine and they will give me quotes like "this is what common people believe " or "we should not make an issue of choice ". but I don't choose to explain those who don't want to understand.
The whole issue is about providing a professional alternative to Windows based programming. As yet it hasn't arrived fully in India. It is happening slowly but Linux programmers are not easy to get.
The issue is about the freedom of people to use or not use certain thing and whether what technology they use is not spying on them or are there any other threats of they loosing personal freedom and privacy. So the issue is beyond windows vs "linux". because using acrobat reader on gnu/linux is again not justifyable if it is a matter of freedom.
IMHO the war is not microsoft vs linux, it is against the organisations or individuals which provide technological facilities and take away our freedom and privacy in exchange.
When for example virus problem had been solved 40 years back by scientists and if gnu/linux could follow the same idea. wy did M$ not implement the same? Every one knows the answer. and why is m$ through direct and indirect methods restricting or manipulating such restrictions of denying the use of a most popular browser through some technique and reach in the government? ... again every one knows the answer but "we must except the all mighty m$ and should never even say that government is bad." afterall many of us do business and if some thing is popular like windows OS, then so be it. let's continue to extend the support because my "customer " asks for it. I am not saying that we should not give what the custommer asks, but at least give him a choice, a knowledge of the fact that other and better alternatives exists. At least we have the right to ask questions of the government, but again "it is not a big issue isn't it?".
yes, the issue is also about professional quality software, but developing such softwares requires either good support or very good finance. Even if either of them is available then linux programmers are not just easy to get but are very cost effective as well. look at the pylons or turbogears projects. Even firefox has tuns of modules and extentions all done by community work, and mind you they are professional. So issue of getting programmres etc can be solved, but is the "so called " group of free software or "open source " interested to support is important. Of course such support is available and right now there is no dirth of the same. But some independent vendors or many others have diffrent issues and other interests (wested or not ).
Businesses have their point of view but I don't talk about business at least in this context.
Nobody is objecting to your opinion on issues, it is your language and choice of words that need some fine tuning. If possible, a spell check utility sprinkled over it as extra topping.
I don't abuse and I don't say any thing without a justification. Again I sand ready to be banned on this list. Any ways, i am slowly starting to refrain from righting to this list because the people who care about such issues already know more than me and I can reach them privately. So relax all, may be in some days my mails might not even come. I think ilug bom is the wrong channel for me. I was just busy drafting the open letter I had started yesterday night. Just thought would take a break and saw these emails.
hacking Krishnakant.
*** "microsoft: we cheet, we loot, we spy on people and ... ... ... ... we also make technologies ***
-- Regards,
Rony.
GNU/Linux ! No Viruses No Spyware Only Freedom.
-
Dinesh Shah (દિનેશ શાહ/दिनेश शाह) -
jtd -
Krishnakant -
pavithran s -
Prashant Verma -
Rony -
Roshan -
Siddhesh Poyarekar