looking at posts from the last few days, it seems that there is no more quality left in this list.
We have people asking the list for jobs (many have been rejected before reaching the list). We have people searching for other people. To both kinds of people, there are sections in your local newspaper that deal with this. Unfortunately, we will always have people who post without subject lines, or subject lines that says "Help" and those who ask the list to unsubscribe them.
To those who post asking for a job:
The lug has a lot of work if you want it. The website needs to be maintained, meetings need to be arranged, workshops need to be arranged, a lot of promotion and advocacy has to be done. Are you interested? You will not be paid for this ... ever.
For programming jobs, there is also a lot of Free software that needs to be developed. You will find projects on sourceforge, savannah and freshmeat. You will probably not get paid for this either.
To those who want information urgently - pay for commercial support. To those who complain that no one has responded to their mail - have patience and maybe rethink your posting strategy.
To those who post without a subject -
To those who want help - try one of the following: http://www.helmeharlan.com http://www.helpmefind.com http://www.helpme2learn.com http://www.helpmelaw.com
To those who want to unsubscribe, the address is linuxers-request@mm....
The list software does not understand natural language. Do not say please unsubscribe me. Follow the instructions that you received when you subscribed. If you deleted those instructions, bad on you.
To those who ask for sample source code - this list is not to be used for doing your homework. If you need sample code to learn from - the web has Terabytes of it. It is better for you to search for it rather than ask the members of this list to search for you.
To those who are unaware of all the programs installed on their system... how can you install something without knowing what you're installing? There's hope yet. Get a list of all programs in /bin, /usr/bin, /usr/local/bin, /sbin and /usr/sbin and read the man pages for them. Read the man pages for whatever is mentioned in the See Also section of any other man page.
Here's a tip. If a man page says something like foo(8), it means you have to do man 8 foo.
If there is no man page, command --help often works. If it doesn't, run the program and see what happens :D. Don't do this as root. In fact, maybe create a temporary account and do it in there (I wouldn't).
Finally, before you post, and I repeat, *before*. Search the web, search your hard disk, search the archives. Do everything possible to find your answer without posting. Only if you don't find a solution should you post to the list.
If, OTOH, you find a solution, but had a really hard time finding it, *and* it was not listed in the list archives, then feel free to post the solution to the list.
Finally, don't ask for help on Linux 8.0. No one has it... yet.
Philip
Who let the dogs out? On a more serious note, it is good that some of these issues did come out so that we get a chance to see where we stand on each of them.
[snip] 1. "looking at posts from the last few days, it seems that there is no more quality left in this list." 2. "Unfortunately, we will always have people who post without subject lines, or subject lines that says 'Help'"
So this list is only for sys admins? The other Linux users should seek
help or information elsewhere? People don't discuss issues here to impress others with "quality". They have problems and ask for solutions, and I think this makes this list a good source of tactical knowledge in the Linux area. If you take that away, this list is pretty much devoid of utility.
Common questions can be clubbed together to form FAQs, which new
members should see before they arrive at the sign-in info page for this list. This would do away with Phillip's common nagging questions problem.
[snip] "For programming jobs, there is also a lot of Free software that needs to be developed. You will find projects on sourceforge, savannah and freshmeat. You will probably not get paid for this ..."
I'm sure new converts will find this extremely encouraging.
[snip] "To those who want information urgently - pay for commercial support."
Once again this list is losing out on tactical Linux knowledge if
commercial companies solve those problems. They obviously will not share their solution with us here.
[snip] "Finally, don't ask for help on Linux 8.0. No one has it... yet."
Dude, whats Linux 8.0? If its new, I'd like to hear about it. Wouldn't
you?
Best wishes, Clinton Goveas http://www.clintongoveas.com
--- "Life. Liberty. Pursuit of Happiness."
-----Original Message----- From: linuxers-admin@mm.ilug-bom.org.in [mailto:linuxers-admin@mm.ilug-bom.org.in] On Behalf Of Philip S Tellis Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 7:52 PM To: Linux Users Subject: [ILUG-BOM] list going to the dogs
looking at posts from the last few days, it seems that there is no more quality left in this list.
We have people asking the list for jobs (many have been rejected before reaching the list). We have people searching for other people. To both kinds of people, there are sections in your local newspaper that deal with this. Unfortunately, we will always have people who post without subject lines, or subject lines that says "Help" and those who ask the list to unsubscribe them.
To those who post asking for a job:
The lug has a lot of work if you want it. The website needs to be maintained, meetings need to be arranged, workshops need to be arranged, a lot of promotion and advocacy has to be done. Are you interested? You will not be paid for this ... ever.
For programming jobs, there is also a lot of Free software that needs to be developed. You will find projects on sourceforge, savannah and freshmeat. You will probably not get paid for this either.
To those who want information urgently - pay for commercial support. To
those who complain that no one has responded to their mail - have patience and maybe rethink your posting strategy.
To those who post without a subject -
To those who want help - try one of the following: http://www.helmeharlan.com http://www.helpmefind.com http://www.helpme2learn.com http://www.helpmelaw.com
To those who want to unsubscribe, the address is linuxers-request@mm....
The list software does not understand natural language. Do not say please unsubscribe me. Follow the instructions that you received when you subscribed. If you deleted those instructions, bad on you.
To those who ask for sample source code - this list is not to be used for doing your homework. If you need sample code to learn from - the web has Terabytes of it. It is better for you to search for it rather than ask the members of this list to search for you.
To those who are unaware of all the programs installed on their system... how can you install something without knowing what you're installing? There's hope yet. Get a list of all programs in /bin, /usr/bin, /usr/local/bin, /sbin and /usr/sbin and read the man pages for
them. Read the man pages for whatever is mentioned in the See Also section of any other man page.
Here's a tip. If a man page says something like foo(8), it means you have to do man 8 foo.
If there is no man page, command --help often works. If it doesn't, run
the program and see what happens :D. Don't do this as root. In fact, maybe create a temporary account and do it in there (I wouldn't).
Finally, before you post, and I repeat, *before*. Search the web, search your hard disk, search the archives. Do everything possible to find your answer without posting. Only if you don't find a solution should you post to the list.
If, OTOH, you find a solution, but had a really hard time finding it, *and* it was not listed in the list archives, then feel free to post the
solution to the list.
Finally, don't ask for help on Linux 8.0. No one has it... yet.
Philip
On Mar 27, 2003 at 01:07, Clinton Goveas wrote:
- "Unfortunately, we will always have people who post without subject
lines, or subject lines that says 'Help'"
So this list is only for sys admins? The other Linux users should seek
help or information elsewhere? People don't discuss issues here to impress others with "quality". They have problems and ask for solutions, and I think this makes this list a good source of tactical knowledge in the Linux area. If you take that away, this list is pretty much devoid of utility.
They should use a more descriptive subject line than "help".
Common questions can be clubbed together to form FAQs, which new
members should see before they arrive at the sign-in info page for this list. This would do away with Phillip's common nagging questions problem.
Alright. When are you publishing ilugbom faq 0.1?
"To those who want information urgently - pay for commercial support."
Once again this list is losing out on tactical Linux knowledge if
commercial companies solve those problems. They obviously will not share their solution with us here.
The operative word is "urgently". Too many times we have people posting asking for urgent help. The rest of us can't drop everything to help people who expect immediate help.
"Finally, don't ask for help on Linux 8.0. No one has it... yet."
Dude, whats Linux 8.0? If its new, I'd like to hear about it. Wouldn't
you?
That's the point.
Please fix your quoting style. The way I have done it is a more acceptable way. You should also include only the relevant parts of previous messages.
On Thu, Mar 27, 2003 at 01:07:32AM +0530, Clinton Goveas wrote:
Who let the dogs out? On a more serious note, it is good that some of these issues did come out so that we get a chance to see where we stand on each of them.
First of all, you seem to be using a rather strange quoting style. The string "> " is considered the default leadin for lines that are quoted from earlier messages. Most mail clients are designed to recognise this leadin and use a different style to render quoted text.
Also please do not just put your reply on top of someone else's mail ... a lot of people have been doing that lately. It really hurts the mail digest that some people read. Also, such a style leads to unnecessarily long mails that have very little signal to noise ratio.
So this list is only for sys admins? The other Linux users should seek help or information elsewhere? People don't discuss issues here to impress others with "quality". They have problems and ask for solutions, and I think this makes this list a good source of tactical knowledge in the Linux area. If you take that away, this list is pretty much devoid of utility.
The ultimate selling point of free software has been the vast user community that is ready to help and really really comprehensive documentation that _does_ work. Enough people have put in enough effort to generate documentation that can take care of almost all questions that a lay user could possibly ask. People should atleast take an equivalent amount of effort to first search for documentation! If everyone starts asking every little question on the list, will any useful work ever get done?
By "tactical knowledge" I assume you mean short-term, troubleshooting capability. Do you mean to say that people on this list are here to solve every little problem that comes along for Joe Ramaswamy, the newbie? First try to solve the problem yourself - search on google, look at the documentation. If you still can't post here describing what you did, and clearly stating what went wrong. If people can help and have the time, they will.
NOTE: "You" symbolises any general user, not just Clinton Goveas.
Common questions can be clubbed together to form FAQs, which new members should see before they arrive at the sign-in info page for this list. This would do away with Phillip's common nagging questions problem.
Take cover, people! He abused the "P"-word!!! :-D
People don't even read the list guidelines that are sent to them when they sign in. You expect them to read an FAQ _before_ they join, which probably answers questions that they don't even know exist??
Sameer.
Hey philip, good-morning to our dear task master , dear list memebers....and praise to lord divine....;)
Lemme do me lil bit to get the ball rolling and have a houdini put us on a fast track.
Luggers......there are two big events being organsied in karnataka. A Workshop in Karnataka and one at Belgaum. For the one at Hubli i need more speakers and luggers who can take practical classes educating students via installing/debugging gnu-linux.
Some hard core geeks to spread some hacker culture are called for. Please lemme know asap as i have to get the tickets booked for this weekend.
Trevor
On Wed, Mar 26, 2003 at 09:55:05PM -0500, trevor.w@media.mit.edu wrote:
Some hard core geeks to spread some hacker culture are called for. Please lemme know asap as i have to get the tickets booked for this weekend.
Hey c'mon Trevor! Not only do you hijack another thread to put out your announcement, you also don't set a correct line length. If oldies start disrespecting the list guidelines, who do we look up to? :-)
Sameer.
*chop*
Some hard core geeks to spread some hacker culture are called for. Please
lemme know asap as i have to get the tickets booked for this weekend.
That sounds like most of us here ;). Anyway if you can let me know the dates I can confirm my availability for the same.
Warm wishes,
Amol Hatwar.
Hey philip, good-morning to our dear task master , dear list memebers....and praise to lord divine....;)
Lemme do me lil bit to get the ball rolling and have a houdini put us on a fast track.
Luggers......there are two big events being organsied in karnataka. A Workshop in Hubli, Karnataka and one at Belgaum. For the one at Hubli i need more speakers and luggers who can take practical classes educating students via installing/debugging gnu-linux and a whole host of other hands-on tutorials.
Some hard core geeks to spread some hacker culture are called for. Please lemme know asap as i have to get the tickets booked for this weekend.
My land line nos are 28312930/31 and cell is 9820349221. Expecting the luggers who know the subject well to pitch in...:). And ofcourse prevent this list going to the mutts....:). Thanks to our task master...:)
Trevor
On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:51:49 +0530 (IST) Philip S Tellis wrote:
looking at posts from the last few days, it seems that there is no more quality left in this list.
[snip]
IMHO the reason for the list going to the dogs is that there are a lot many first-timers seeking help from the LUG, and this may be the first ML that they join. This is a heartening indicator of Linux getting acceptance into the so-called mainstream.
I've heard of a few mailing lists where the subscribers themselves need to reply to their first post before it gets distributed. If it is possible to do something like this for ILUG-Bom, an automated response can be sent by the mailer for the very first post of a new subscriber, and the first post may not be distributed.
The automated response would remind the poster of the guidelines and have pointers to RFC 1855 etc. If the OP still thinks that his query is appropriate, he may post it again, this time without any policing from the mailer. I hope this would catch a lot of newbies looking for urgent help on Linux 8.0 that they might have got from a long lost friend (btw, RHL 9 is due out 2003-04 to make matters worse :p).
Perhaps, sending the guidelines at the time of subscription should then be discontinued because often subscribers hang on for a while to observe the activity and by the time they come around to posting something, the mail containing the guidelines has long been deleted.
Getting a little more strict, the ML software can reject and send an autoresponse to mails that don't contain any subject or contain taboo words like "urgent" or "help" (without 3 other words or so). But I guess this option might have been explored before.
Note: These suggestions should not be taken as advocacy against freedom of speech.
guess we should congratulate ourselves if the list is going to the dogs;then ilug-bom has far more reach than it could ever have expected ilug-bom has done ground-breaking work in taking linux to masses and the other species. i reckon if the dogs r taking to linux their masters can't be far behind. and regarding linux 8; ....i've read somewhere that one human year equals seven dog years so what is linux 2.4.x to us might actually be linux 8+ to the dogs considering the no of years linux has been in development .the dogs must have spent more years in linux development than what we humans have. So people the moral of the story is, the man's best friend has become friendlier and linux savvy. i wish my mom would let me have a dog, i could ask him my linux doubts
===== ninad purohit ninadonline(at)yahoo(dot)co(dot)in have a nice day :-)
________________________________________________________________________ Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, Yahoo! TV. visit http://in.tv.yahoo.com
On Thu, Mar 27, 2003 at 10:58:08AM +0530, Tahir Hashmi wrote:
On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:51:49 +0530 (IST) Philip S Tellis wrote:
looking at posts from the last few days, it seems that there is no more quality left in this list.
[snip]
IMHO the reason for the list going to the dogs is that there are a lot many first-timers seeking help from the LUG, and this may be the first ML that they join. This is a heartening indicator of Linux getting acceptance into the so-called mainstream.
Once more ... something some of us had proposed quite some back ..
Here it comes.
fork(); fork();
1] Newbies 2] General 3] Geeks
Please!
On Thu, Mar 27, 2003 at 11:15:26AM +0530, Ravindra Jaju wrote:
fork(); fork();
1] Newbies 2] General 3] Geeks
Do the numbers justify the fork? Are there too many geeks or too many newbies that are so distant from each other that they want to be on separate lists?
I believe the real problem here is inproper initiation into the USENET culture ... the idea about making a first-time poster moderate his own mail is really good ... some newsgroups already do that, I believe. We just need to make people understand the new culture they are moving into when they try GNU/Linux for the first time.
I suggest another idea ... something that we do here at KReSIT. When someone sends a mail to the list that doesn't fit the guidelines, _everyone_ should mail the poster directly saying why they think the mail is not good. I use a pre-written template to do this at KReSIT, no need to waste time typing things out again and again. Just make sure send the mail to the poster and not the list!
That, coupled with a good verbose rant on the list once in a while should be enough, I think. Philip had promised long ago that he would regularly post Tom Christiansen's mail here, but seems he doesn't want to do that.
Sameer.
On Thu, Mar 27, 2003 at 11:48:07AM +0530, Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe wrote:
fork(); fork(); 1] Newbies 2] General 3] Geeks
Do the numbers justify the fork? Are there too many geeks or too many newbies that are so distant from each other that they want to be on separate lists?
There's no relation between no. of people and no. of lists. It just gives *me* the flexibility to read mails I'm interested in at any given time. Reply to those which I think I can reply to. And ignore (even if it is by not/un subscribing) to some kinds of emails when I think I am too busy.
I believe the real problem here is inproper initiation into the USENET culture ... the idea about making a first-time poster moderate his own mail is really good ... some newsgroups already do that, I believe. We just need to make people understand the new culture they are moving into when they try GNU/Linux for the first time.
That's ok. Let people learn the proper culture the harder way, or the easier way, or whatever. I'm not at all concerned. *When* I *am* concerned, I'll take some time off to talk to some of the guys.
I suggest another idea ... something that we do here at KReSIT. When someone sends a mail to the list that doesn't fit the guidelines, _everyone_ should mail the poster directly saying why they think the mail is not good. I use a pre-written template to do this at KReSIT, no need to waste time typing things out again and again. Just make sure send the mail to the poster and not the list!
That's not always feasible for everyone. No one has that much time, or energy.
Or, maybe, I should just take a break and unsubscribe. And ask *you* once in a while about any interesting happenings ;-)
Ok guys. Me taking an off for a few days. Will come back after a break :)
On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 11:48:07 +0530 Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe wrote:
On Thu, Mar 27, 2003 at 11:15:26AM +0530, Ravindra Jaju wrote:
fork(); fork();
1] Newbies 2] General 3] Geeks
With all due respect, I'd like to point out that segregation on the basis of a user's level of knowledge is plain wrong and counter-productive. It's wrong because:
- a user may not be able to judge which list to join based on a self-evaluation, w/o knowing the kind of discussions taking place on the list. For me the prospect of trawling through the archives just to look at the level of discussions is rather repulsive.
- the user may not get a migration path that a general purpose ML offers. Looking back at the difference in the kind of mails that I used to send when I joined and now, there's a perceptible difference (for the better, I hope :p). I could also observe the same with some other regulars who joined after me as total newbies and worked their way up to be contributors to meaningful discussions.
It's counter-productive because without many geeks lurking around the newbie list, people won't get to know about the non-existence of Linux 8.0, they would sulk at Linux because it uses a lot of precious little RAM while the abundantly available swap stays unused etc. Unless some geek takes up the cause of educating the newbies - something that the current list also handles nicely.
I suggest another idea ... something that we do here at KReSIT. When someone sends a mail to the list that doesn't fit the guidelines, _everyone_ should mail the poster directly saying why they think the mail is not good. I use a pre-written template to do this at KReSIT, no need to waste time typing things out again and again. Just make sure send the mail to the poster and not the list!
This practice is also followed on comp.lang.c++.moderated (if the message gets beyond the moderators, that is). I agree that this could be fine with two exceptions:
- not everyone should remind the OP of the guidelines - the reminder should be posted on the list and no one should bother replying to a poster who's been reminded (or reply privately).
A polite reminder and general ignorance by the members does make a poster review his/her stance.
That, coupled with a good verbose rant on the list once in a while should be enough, I think.
How about taking turns at it >:)
Ravindra Jaju writes:
On Thu, Mar 27, 2003 at 10:58:08AM +0530, Tahir Hashmi wrote:
On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:51:49 +0530 (IST) Philip S Tellis wrote:
looking at posts from the last few days, it seems that there is no more quality left in this list.
[snip] IMHO the reason for the list going to the dogs is that there are a lot many first-timers seeking help from the LUG, and this may be the first ML that they join. This is a heartening indicator of Linux getting acceptance into the so-called mainstream.
Once more ... something some of us had proposed quite some back .. Here it comes. fork(); fork(); 1] Newbies 2] General 3] Geeks Please!
Seeing the increasing number of members subscribing to this list, this might make sense. But i doubt it will help solve the problem. Making members aware of the guidelines is a better idea!!! But How to do that is the question?? :)
Vinayak Hegde APGDST Student NCST-JUHU
Ravindra Jaju wrote:
Here it comes.
fork(); fork();
1] Newbies 2] General 3] Geeks
I've been on the linux-bangalore mailing lists for like 3 months now. We have separate lists for tech, non-tech, programming, etc. Now that I'm busy, I've got myself unsubscribed from all but the tech list. See, it's convenient!
Also, the first post of a new subscriber is moderated (was kind of frustrating for me :) ). But once you've "proved" yourself, no moderation for you.
-Manish
On Thu, Mar 27, 2003 at 03:50:59PM +0530, Manish Jethani wrote:
I've been on the linux-bangalore mailing lists for like 3 months now. We have separate lists for tech, non-tech, programming, etc. Now that I'm busy, I've got myself unsubscribed from all but the tech list. See, it's convenient!
tech, non-tech etc make sense ... just like LIG, LIH and LIP. But newbie and expert ... how do you differentiate between that! I guess I could call myself an expert, but when I try something for the first time, like squid do I post to the newbie list? And will there be guidelines for kicking people off the experts list? And will experts ever bother to read mails on the newbie list? How will the newbies get the hang of things in that case?
Sameer.
On Thu, Mar 27, 2003 at 07:06:06PM +0530, Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe wrote:
tech, non-tech etc make sense ... just like LIG, LIH and LIP. But newbie and expert ... how do you differentiate between that! I guess I could call myself an expert, but when I try something for the first time, like squid do I post to the newbie list? And will there be guidelines for kicking people off the experts list? And will experts ever bother to read mails on the newbie list? How will the newbies get the hang of things in that case?
Don't take the names too seriously. tecþ, non-tech, lig, lip, lig .. all are fine!
On Thu, 27 Mar 2003, Ravindra Jaju wrote:
On Thu, Mar 27, 2003 at 07:06:06PM +0530, Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe wrote:
tech, non-tech etc make sense ... just like LIG, LIH and LIP. But newbie and expert ... how do you differentiate between that! I guess I could call myself an expert, but when I try something for the first time, like squid do I post to the newbie list? And will there be guidelines for kicking people off the experts list? And will experts ever bother to read mails on the newbie list? How will the newbies get the hang of things in that case?
Don't take the names too seriously. tec�, non-tech, lig, lip, lig .. all are fine!
Even on LIG, LIP we do come across people who post to the wrong list or who dont put [COMMERCIAL] tag. do you really think just by having seperate lists newbies are going to have proper subject line or similar issues raised originally. Having seperate lists is not going to stop people from doing stupid things like asking for a job or looking for a friend. Somehow we need to make new joinees read list guidelines/FAQs and follow them.
just my 2p.
Regards Aseem
I joined the list few days back. While opening I got a mail with "ILUG-Bom Mailing List participation Guidelines" from the agent.
I think resending that to who ever write "stupid mails" will be more than enough.
cheers Biju
The Migration Path http://www.geocities.com/bijumaillist/cygnome/images/migrationpath.gif CyGNOME - Bringing *nix, GNOME to Win32 users http://cygnome.sourceforge.net/
--- Aseem Rane aseem@ports.cmc.net.in wrote:
On Thu, 27 Mar 2003, Ravindra Jaju wrote:
On Thu, Mar 27, 2003 at 07:06:06PM +0530, Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe wrote:
tech, non-tech etc make sense ... just like LIG, LIH and LIP. But newbie and expert ... how do you differentiate between that! I guess I
........... Don't take the names too seriously. tec�, non-tech, lig, lip, lig .. all are fine!
stupid things like asking for a job or looking for a friend. Somehow we need to make new joinees read list guidelines/FAQs and follow them.
just my 2p.
Regards Aseem
__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com
ya it is time to have separate mailing list
On Thu, 27 Mar 2003, Amol Hatwar wrote:
*snip*> fork(); fork();
1] Newbies 2] General 3] Geeks
if u can add please for "commerical mailing list" as job [or some thing similar ]
I'd go with something similar.
FWIW, I'm voting *against* separate lists. I'm for one list. (Or two, one regular one jobs/commercial. That's what UUASC does.)
On Thu, Mar 27, 2003 at 07:12:32PM -0500, Satya wrote:
FWIW, I'm voting *against* separate lists. I'm for one list. (Or two, one regular one jobs/commercial. That's what UUASC does.)
What's UUASC and how does it in any way affect our behaviour?
If you have more convincing arguments, please put forth.
On Mar 28, 2003 at 09:05, Ravindra Jaju wrote:
On Thu, Mar 27, 2003 at 07:12:32PM -0500, Satya wrote:
FWIW, I'm voting *against* separate lists. I'm for one list. (Or two, one regular one jobs/commercial. That's what UUASC does.)
What's UUASC and how does it in any way affect our behaviour?
unix users association of southern california. It doesn't.
If you have more convincing arguments, please put forth.
That's how I feel. I did say I was voting. I did not say I was arguing (as in "debate" not as in "fight").
this post is going to a dogfight now...;) guys relax...everything that we get in this world comes with some strings attached...lets just consider these annoying things as the price we must pay for a single unified list....
--- Satya satyap@satya.virtualave.net wrote:
On Mar 28, 2003 at 09:05, Ravindra Jaju wrote:
On Thu, Mar 27, 2003 at 07:12:32PM -0500, Satya wrote:
FWIW, I'm voting *against* separate lists. I'm for one
list. (Or two,
one regular one jobs/commercial. That's what UUASC
does.)
What's UUASC and how does it in any way affect our
behaviour?
unix users association of southern california. It doesn't.
If you have more convincing arguments, please put forth.
That's how I feel. I did say I was voting. I did not say I was arguing (as in "debate" not as in "fight").
-- Satya. URL:http://satya.virtualave.net/ Reality is for people who can't handle Star Trek.
--
__________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com
On Fri, Mar 28, 2003 at 07:33:01AM -0500, Satya wrote:
FWIW, I'm voting *against* separate lists. I'm for one list. (Or two, one regular one jobs/commercial. That's what UUASC does.)
What's UUASC and how does it in any way affect our behaviour?
unix users association of southern california. It doesn't.
The content of your mail *implied* that since UUASC does it, it's a good model to follow. Hence the question. Otherwise, how is the statement 'That's what UUASC does.' related to this post?
If you have more convincing arguments, please put forth.
That's how I feel. I did say I was voting. I did not say I was arguing (as in "debate" not as in "fight").
But, if I am asking for forking with reasons, shouldn't you too give reasons in support of your views? Doesn't it make sense? Your mail is useful input in a 'poll', but doesn't help arrive at any conclusions in this thread/debate.
Of course, to make things clear (as was implied in another mail), nothing like a 'dogfight' here.
I think we have lost the art of arguing, assuming that arguing and confronting are synonymous. No!
On Sat, Mar 29, 2003 at 11:23:57AM +0530, Ravindra Jaju wrote:
But, if I am asking for forking with reasons, shouldn't you too give reasons in support of your views? Doesn't it make sense? Your mail is useful input in a 'poll', but doesn't help arrive at any conclusions in this thread/debate.
Ok lets see if we can put things clearly ... you suggest that we split the list into the equivalent of LIP, LIH and LIG. You also seem to claim this is _not_ based on whether a person is a newbie or an expert (by expert, I assume a person who knows how to use mailing lists, newsgroups. FAQs and all other resources like documentation effectively.)
But the way I see it, splitting will only create three more places where clueless individuals will continue posting mails in crappy format. How does your suggestion of splitting the list help? If you only want the list to be separated in order to separate technical help, general posts and developers then I don't oppose it, although I don't see how it will be useful given the very small active membership on this list.
Also sad to see that some members continue to top-post inspite of a similar discussion earlier this year when things were made as clear as can be about quoting and replying.
Sameer.
On Mar 29, 2003 at 11:23, Ravindra Jaju wrote:
The content of your mail *implied* that since UUASC does it, it's a good model to follow. Hence the question. Otherwise, how is the statement 'That's what UUASC does.' related to this post?
UUASC is a vaguely similar organisation. The method works for them. It may work for us.
But, if I am asking for forking with reasons, shouldn't you too give reasons in support of your views? Doesn't it make sense? Your mail is
Only if I want to _convince_ you :-)
Splitting a list based on anything other than commercial/noncommercial does not make sense to me. The job split is the only concrete split that I can think of. How do you say whether a question is general or technical or what? A commercial message is easier to identify as being commercial.
Of course, to make things clear (as was implied in another mail), nothing like a 'dogfight' here.
Certainly not. Some people get strange ideas.
I think we have lost the art of arguing, assuming that arguing and confronting are synonymous. No!
That was a point I tried to make earlier. Forget confrontation, I didn't even want to argue.
--- Satya satyap@satya.virtualave.net wrote:
On Mar 29, 2003 at 11:23, Ravindra Jaju wrote:
Of course, to make things clear (as was implied in
another mail), nothing
like a 'dogfight' here.
Certainly not. Some people get strange ideas.
shucks...where is your sense of humour guys?
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kishor bhagwat wrote:
--- Satya satyap@satya.virtualave.net wrote:
On Mar 29, 2003 at 11:23, Ravindra Jaju wrote:
Of course, to make things clear (as was implied in
another mail), nothing
like a 'dogfight' here.
Certainly not. Some people get strange ideas.
shucks...where is your sense of humour guys?
Gone to the dogs!
When he said dogfight, he was serious about the 'dog' part of it, not the 'fight' part of it. :-))
Take it personally now :-P
-Dog^H^H^HManish
Hi Luggers,
I understand that new users are not following the list guidelines. Much to the ire of the rest of the list. However I do not agree with the proposal to fork() the list.
We must understand that the world around us is rapidly changing. For years we have been regarded as a bunch of geeks who have no place in the commercial world. Now people have started recognizing FLOSS as a viable alternative to proprietary software. Particularly the student community and SMEs have started migrating to the FLOSS platform. The large number of newbies joining the list is a clear indication of this. This is a very healthy sign. It's now upon us how we react to it.
We can either chastise them and relegate them to a list where they will have nobody to look up to ... or we could assimilate them into the mainstream by making them understand our paradigm. The first option is easy ... however it is the second option that will make a difference.
I suggest that we have this discussion at the next GLUG meet. There we can listen to all the different viewpoints that we have and reach a consensus. So make sure that you don't miss the next GLUG meet. If you miss the GLUG meet then don't crib that your viewpoint was not taken into consideration. The next GLUG meet is to be held at HBCSE, Mankhurd on 13th April 2003 at 1600 hours. Agenda for the meeting and the directions for HBCSE will be posted on the list and the GLUG site soon.
Happy hacking !! Kapil Karekar - the lonely webmaster of the GLUG site :)) Mail me at: kapil {at} libretech {dot} com
Actually, it would be best if we can have one mailing list, but give options which force people to either put
[Commercial] or [OffTopic] or [Technical] or [General]
(If possible), it should not accept mails without the classification. And I defitely thing the system should bounce all mails that do not have a subject or just says "Help"
Regards saswata ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sachin Rase" sachinr@unitek.co.in To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] Re: list going to the dogs
ya it is time to have separate mailing list
On Thu, 27 Mar 2003, Amol Hatwar wrote:
*snip*> fork(); fork();
1] Newbies 2] General 3] Geeks
if u can add please for "commerical mailing list" as job [or some thing similar ]
I'd go with something similar.
-- Regards
Sachin Rase Unitek-India-Team sachinr@unitek.co.in
--
Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote:
Actually, it would be best if we can have one mailing list, but give options which force people to either put
[Commercial] or [OffTopic] or [Technical] or [General]
Seems like a good idea to start with. Will let us stay away from the overhead (may be debatable since some people may not find this an overhead, and some people will...) of creating multiple lists. Instead of maintaining multiple list subscriptions we can maintain filters. If the need arises we can always add more categories without the need to create more lists. Offcourse we will have to hope that people properly categorize their mails... and not put mails with commercial content in the [technical] category. We can start with this approach and then scale up to multiple lists if this approach presents drawbacks that can be addressed with multiple lists. In any case instead of debating endlessly... lets decide on an immediate plan and implement it. I think we have some basic options: a> Let things be as they are b> Have multiple lists c> Have one list with a category in the subject line.
If anyone wishes to add more options... please do so. Lets decide on a last date to add more options (how about 31st March ?) and a last date to vote on them (3rd April ?) We can then implement the result of the vote.
regards Parag
On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Parag Shah wrote:
Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote:
Actually, it would be best if we can have one mailing list, but give options which force people to either put
[snip]
Seems like a good idea to start with. Will let us stay away from the overhead (may be debatable since some people may not find this an overhead, and some people will...) of creating multiple lists. Instead of maintaining multiple list subscriptions we can maintain filters. If
Yes that is a perfectly good idea.
create more lists. Offcourse we will have to hope that people properly categorize their mails... and not put mails with commercial content in the [technical] category. We can start with this approach and then scale up to multiple lists if this approach presents drawbacks that can be addressed with multiple lists.
I think we should stick with only a single list, but make sure that people get banned if they repeatedly default on following guidelines. That will lead to a bit of tidying up, and awareness that the *guidelines* are ment for something.
In any case instead of debating endlessly... lets decide on an immediate plan and implement it. I think we have some basic options: a> Let things be as they are b> Have multiple lists c> Have one list with a category in the subject line.
I go for option (c). Also that the categories should be limited, for example, 1. [Commercial] For job postings by _employers_. People should use their own contacts to find jobs and not mailing lists like ours. People can however search our mailing list to get a list of possible employers and forward their resumes to them independently. 2. [Newbie Question] Anything under the Sun that deals with GNU/Linux that a newbie may wish to ask. This should allow people to ask where to look for documentation or which utility to use for a task, things of that nature. 3. [OT] Offtopic tidbits 4. [Announce: Software/LUG Meet/Workshop] Announcements of Meetings, workshops organised by LUG and FLOSS software written by LUG members. 4. Rest all can be regular technical/general discussions.
If we can comeup with a definitive list and post it on list, and hope that everybody uses it. People can use their individual mail filters to filter things they are interested in then, while still leaving options open for newbies, semi-geeks and hackers to still post to the same list. Less trouble for moderators, as well as list members. This may sound a bit utopian but it is possible if repeat offenders are given a few /ban ;).
--- Rajesh Deo rajeshdeo@earthlink.net wrote:
On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Parag Shah wrote:
Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote:
Actually, it would be best if we can have one mailing
list, but give options
which force people to either put
sounds like this is the path of least resistance..i'm game for this.....this experiment..
regds, Kishor
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Rajesh Deo wrote:
- [Commercial]
[...]
- [Newbie Question]
[...]
- [OT]
[...]
- [Announce: Software/LUG Meet/Workshop]
[...]
- Rest all can be regular technical/general discussions.
And, eventually, categories 1-4 will be forgotten.
Discussions of this kind have happened before. Similar suggestions have come up. They're lost somewhere in the archives (go search it!). Nothing happened.
The list has never imposed any kind of protocol on its subscribers. I don't think it will, ever.
It's time to end this discussion. Learn from the past. Read, again, the original message from Philip. Absorb. Move on.
-Manish
On Sun, 30 Mar 2003, Manish Jethani wrote:
Rajesh Deo wrote:
[snip]
- [Announce: Software/LUG Meet/Workshop]
[...]
- Rest all can be regular technical/general discussions.
And, eventually, categories 1-4 will be forgotten.
Discussions of this kind have happened before. Similar suggestions have come up. They're lost somewhere in the archives (go search it!). Nothing happened.
The list has never imposed any kind of protocol on its subscribers. I don't think it will, ever.
It's time to end this discussion. Learn from the past. Read, again, the original message from Philip. Absorb. Move on.
-Manish
I think, I have been on list on and off, for a while now, and I did not see so much irrelevance in mails till now. The mail from Philip was obviously indicative of that. I was only responding to Parag's suggestions. It is completely clear to me that such a protocol won't be followed, if I know anything about human nature. But I think by simply mentioning it we give some indications to people on list, as to what is perceived "appropriate" in electronic communications. And as you said it is time to move on.
ciao -Rajesh
I do agree that this discussion is getting somewhat out of hand, and it is time to move on. However if we do move on without addressing the issue then such discussions will surface every few weeks/months. On the other hand if we do address the issue right now then chances are that such discussions will surface with a lesser probability in the future. It is possible that whatever plan we adopt will have drawbacks and those will spur more discussions, but still that is not a good reason to ignore the issue and not act at all. A good thing to do would be to adopt a simple and workable plan... as Kishore put it "the plan of least resistence". Perhaps we should also take this discussion of the mailing list and address it in the next LUG meeting as Kapil suggested. And lets get back to Linuxing.
The list has never imposed any kind of protocol on its subscribers. I don't think it will, ever.
It's time to end this discussion. Learn from the past. Read, again, the original message from Philip. Absorb. Move on.
-Manish
regards Parag
Tahir Hashmi writes:
On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:51:49 +0530 (IST) Philip S Tellis wrote:
looking at posts from the last few days, it seems that there is no more quality left in this list.
[snip]
I've heard of a few mailing lists where the subscribers themselves need to reply to their first post before it gets distributed. If it is possible to do something like this for ILUG-Bom, an automated response can be sent by the mailer for the very first post of a new subscriber, and the first post may not be distributed. The automated response would remind the poster of the guidelines and have pointers to RFC 1855 etc. If the OP still thinks that his query is appropriate, he may post it again, this time without any policing from the mailer. I hope this would catch a lot of newbies looking for urgent help on Linux 8.0 that they might have got from a long lost friend (btw, RHL 9 is due out 2003-04 to make matters worse :p).
This is actually a pretty good idea.
Getting a little more strict, the ML software can reject and send an autoresponse to mails that don't contain any subject or contain taboo words like "urgent" or "help" (without 3 other words or so). But I guess this option might have been explored before.
That brings us again to the topic of "censorship". Most of us would vote for a user moderated mailing list. Our only safeguard are aware members.
Vinayak Hegde APGDST Student NCST-JUHU
IMHO we've had enough debate on this issue and the posts now are simply rehashing what's been said earlier. I request the list admins to kindly consider the suggestions brought forward so far and arrive at some decision.
-
Amol Hatwar -
Aseem Rane -
Biju G C -
Clinton Goveas -
Kapil Karekar -
kishor bhagwat -
Manish Jethani -
Ninad Purohit -
Parag Shah -
Philip S Tellis -
quasiabhi＠softhome.net -
Rajesh Deo -
Ravindra Jaju -
Sachin Rase -
Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe -
Saswata Banerjee & Associates -
Satya -
Tahir Hashmi -
trevor.w＠media.mit.edu -
vinayak_hegde＠softhome.net