Hi,
Myself Raza.Z.Sayed , from Mumbai. I have recently joined iglug-bom . Well, im kinda new to linux , but ive been using linux for quite some time now as a casual user . Im a student and I find linux more attractive as compared to proprietary OS, not only because it has matured enough to give proprietary software some decent competition but what appeals to me most as a student is that linux being free and open source offers a lot of room for learning and experimentation , which is seriously lacking in a proprietary os like windows. So,ive decided to switch over completely to free and open source software now and plan to use Linux as the primary OS I use on my machine. My machine has 512 MB of RAM and 1.46 GHz processor. So,i need your suggestion as to which distro would be the best desktop os for me,in terms of atleast the following factors.
1. Support for wireless connectivity, as i need to be able to use WiFi.
2. Support for Bluetooth .
3. Support for ADSL connections , i use MTNL Triband on my machine
4. Good choice of software and wide support for the same available.
One of my friends would be giving me a copy of Debian Etch . Would that be good enough ?.
Thanks :)
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--- Raza Sayed wrote:
My machine has 512 MB of RAM and 1.46 GHz processor. So,i need your suggestion as to which distro would be the best desktop os for me,in terms of atleast the following factors.
- Support for wireless connectivity, as i need to
be able to use WiFi.
Which WiFi Card? (I hope, its from Intel) (Is it on your desktop?)
- Support for Bluetooth .
- Support for ADSL connections , i use MTNL
Triband on my machine 4. Good choice of software and wide support for the same available.
For the above three specifications and your hardware configuration Kubuntu Linux could be an /option./ Triband is supported out-of-the-box and if you're using it on Ethernet, no issues at all.
One of my friends would be giving me a copy of Debian Etch . Would that be good enough ?.
Debian Etch is an option too. However, if you are for a quick installation and simplicity, Kubuntu could just be what you'll want.
-- FSF of India Associate Fellow - http://www.gnu.org.in ubunturos @ freenode
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On 8/28/07, Raza Sayed raza_sayed@yahoo.com wrote:
Hi,
Myself Raza.Z.Sayed , from Mumbai. I have recently joined iglug-bom .
Welcome to the LUG :)
Support for wireless connectivity, as i need to be able to use WiFi.
Support for Bluetooth .
Support for ADSL connections , i use MTNL Triband on my machine
Good choice of software and wide support for the same available.
One of my friends would be giving me a copy of Debian Etch . Would that be good enough ?.
Yes, debian is a very good distro. But, etch has some quite old packages, these feel too outdated for desktop usage. You can go for sid, which is quite a lot more cutting edge and more suited to many desktop users.
Other alternatives I can suggest are Ubuntu and Sabayon, both of which I can give to you, if you'd like to try them out.
--- mehul mehul.forums@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/28/07, Raza Sayed raza_sayed@yahoo.com wrote:
Hi,
Myself Raza.Z.Sayed , from Mumbai. I have recently
joined iglug-bom .
Welcome to the LUG :)
- Support for wireless connectivity, as i need to
be able to use WiFi.
Support for Bluetooth .
Support for ADSL connections , i use MTNL
Triband on my machine
- Good choice of software and wide support for
the same available.
One of my friends would be giving me a copy of
Debian Etch . Would that be good enough ?.
Yes, debian is a very good distro. But, etch has some quite old packages, these feel too outdated for desktop usage. You can go for sid, which is quite a lot more cutting edge and more suited to many desktop users.
Other alternatives I can suggest are Ubuntu and Sabayon, both of which I can give to you, if you'd like to try them out.
Guys, thanks for your valuable insights :). Since im not a seasoned linux user yet my first priority would be to get comfortable with linux from a general users perspective.Doing things like word processing, audio,video, use the Internet etc. Basically do all those things that ive been doing so far on a proprietary os. Also, as I stated earlier , i need support for my ADSL Internet connection (MTNL Triband) ,wireless (WiFi Internet Access)and support for Bluetooth. Since i also do a lot of programming work ,im interested in Linux from a developers point of view , learning the system internals, and doing some interesting software development work on the Linux platform. And Mehul, yes I would like to try out Ubuntu (KUbuntu to be precise) and Sabayon . So plz let me know the details as to how i can get in touch with you for the same.
Thanks :)
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On 8/29/07, Raza Sayed raza_sayed@yahoo.com wrote:
Also, as I stated earlier , i need support for my ADSL Internet connection (MTNL Triband) ,wireless (WiFi Internet Access)and support for Bluetooth. Since i also do a lot of programming work ,im interested in Linux from a developers point of view , learning the system internals, and doing some interesting software development work on the Linux platform.
Which wifi device is it? Rest all will work fine without a problem. Wifi may take some work depending on how well is it supported. Also, if you have ATI graphics card, it maybe a little hectic to configure it at the beginning.
And Mehul, yes I would like to try out Ubuntu (KUbuntu to be precise) and Sabayon . So plz let me know the details as to how i can get in touch with you for the same.
If you can drop by at VJTI, FOSS lab that would be the best place. For Kubuntu, I don't have it on a CD, if you can get a pen drive I can give you kubuntu-desktop and xubuntu-desktop and other packages we have, on it.
--- mehul mehul.forums@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/29/07, Raza Sayed raza_sayed@yahoo.com wrote:
Also, as I stated earlier , i need support for my
ADSL
Internet connection (MTNL Triband) ,wireless (WiFi Internet Access)and support for Bluetooth. Since i also do a lot of programming work ,im interested in Linux from a developers point of
view ,
learning the system internals, and doing some interesting software development work on the Linux platform.
Which wifi device is it? Rest all will work fine without a problem. Wifi may take some work depending on how well is it supported. Also, if you have ATI graphics card, it maybe a little hectic to configure it at the beginning.
Actually,im planning to install Linux on my laptop which has inbuilt wifi . Any possible issues with that ?
And Mehul, yes I would like to try out Ubuntu
(KUbuntu
to be precise) and Sabayon . So plz let me know
the
details as to how i can get in touch with you for
the
same.
If you can drop by at VJTI, FOSS lab that would be the best place. For Kubuntu, I don't have it on a CD, if you can get a pen drive I can give you kubuntu-desktop and xubuntu-desktop and other packages we have, on it.
Thanks Mehul,i would definitely drop by at the FOSS lab at VJTI . Just let me know what days and what time will you be available . Can i have your contact number,as i think it would be better if i call you up first before coming.
Thanks :)
Best Regards, rAzA :)
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On 8/30/07, Raza Sayed raza_sayed@yahoo.com wrote:
Actually,im planning to install Linux on my laptop which has inbuilt wifi . Any possible issues with that ?
What wifi card is it? You can get some info on your wireless card support in ubuntu from https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/WirelessCardsSupported
Thanks Mehul,i would definitely drop by at the FOSS lab at VJTI . Just let me know what days and what time will you be available . Can i have your contact number,as i think it would be better if i call you up first before coming.
I am there on weekdays from 11am-7pm and saturdays usually I am there at the same time too. You can get your laptop along and get installation and basic configuration part done at the lab only. I will mail you my phone number offlist.
Raza Sayed wrote:
Actually,im planning to install Linux on my laptop which has inbuilt wifi . Any possible issues with that ?
Hi Raza. Welcome to the world of freedom. Whenever you post a hardware related query, it is more helpful to give full hardware details / configuration of your hardware so it becomes easier to get the correct information.
On Mon, 2007-08-27 at 12:04 -0700, Raza Sayed wrote:
One of my friends would be giving me a copy of Debian Etch . Would that be good enough ?.
What are your requirements? Please tell us. What kinda work do you expect out of your linux distro?
Also, over the years i've learnt that you should mix and match! Experiment with differetn distros. Dont put any critical work on your install. Try a few flavors of Linux and see which suits to the best. I did that and finally settled with Redhat. Now i'm hooked into Fedora 24x7 :)
--- Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Mon, 2007-08-27 at 12:04 -0700, Raza Sayed wrote:
One of my friends would be giving me a copy of Debian Etch . Would that be good enough ?.
What are your requirements? Please tell us. What kinda work do you expect out of your linux distro?
Right, that's an important question too. State your requirements.
-- FSF of India Associate Fellow - http://www.gnu.org.in ubunturos @ freenode
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On Tuesday 28 August 2007 23:00, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
Also, over the years i've learnt that you should mix and match! Experiment with differetn distros. Dont put any critical work on your install.
U can put critical stuff subject to some discpline. Use a seperate disk / at least a seperate directory for critical data. Whenever u want to freak out with some experiment unmount your critical disk / partition. If it's a disk disconnect from the system. Learnt the above the hard way while messing around recovering crashed (sigh) windows 98 back in 99.
Try a few flavors of Linux and see which suits to the best. I did that and finally settled with Redhat. Now i'm hooked into Fedora 24x7 :)
However avoid Novell-Suse like the plague (at least get rid of it within 180 days if u must taste forbidden fruit). Reason - you are in a legal limbo with that distro.
On Wed, Aug 29, 2007 at 10:32 AM, in message
200708291032.15595.jtd@sparc.net, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
On Tuesday 28 August 2007 23:00, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
Also, over the years i've learnt that you should mix and match! Experiment with differetn distros. Dont put any critical work on your install.
U can put critical stuff subject to some discpline. Use a seperate disk / at least a seperate directory for critical data. Whenever u want to freak out with some experiment unmount your critical disk / partition. If it's a disk disconnect from the system. Learnt the above the hard way while messing around recovering crashed (sigh) windows 98 back in 99.
Try a few flavors of Linux and see which suits to the best. I did that and finally settled with Redhat. Now i'm hooked into Fedora 24x7 :)
However avoid Novell-Suse like the plague (at least get rid of it within 180 days if u must taste forbidden fruit). Reason - you are in a legal limbo with that distro.
Can the poster please explain the basis of above statements.
Or is this just another case of spreading FUD, especially to people who are new to Linux and whom you are in a position to influence.
Note: I have no intention to start a flame war, but when you say strong words about any product / project, please back them up with reasonable facts.
Regards, Rahul
On Wednesday 29 August 2007 10:58, Rahulkrishna Gupta wrote:
However avoid Novell-Suse like the plague (at least get rid of it within 180 days if u must taste forbidden fruit). Reason - you are in a legal limbo with that distro.
Can the poster please explain the basis of above statements.
Everyone would much prefer that Novell issue an official statement clarifying their stance about redistribution of Novell Suse distros and their upgarde/additive licence. Heck no that is too complicated and difficult u know - make alist of gpl/mpl/apl stuff and a list of EULA restricted stuff. Instead u ask me to clarify. wonderful.
Or is this just another case of spreading FUD,
Really? Could you please ask Novell and M$?. We would love to hear what they say. Should be easy for you.
especially to people who are new to Linux and whom you are in a position to influence.
Or to word it differently - move them away from the hook before they take the bait?
Grep the list archives. also read the Novell licence which i am sure u have access to. Ok, here is the top secret url http://www.novell.com/licensing/eula/sled_10/sled_10_english.pdf
Note: I have no intention to start a flame war, but when you say strong words about any product / project, please back them up with reasonable facts.
Really? U may like to research the word FUD and read about the Novell M$ deal other than what Novell dishes out to justify the deal.
To cut a long story short, using a Novell-Suse distro for more than the stipulated period (180 days) or beyond the permtted scope (no bench marking, no reverse engineering, no distribution outside your organisation etc etc) will void your licence to use. Also Novell agrees with M$ that it's distro contains M$ patented stuff (what stuff?, well, neither party cares to identify) and as a result of that agreement if anyone uses the distro, after cessation of the licence, can be sued by M$. Says who? Says M$. But the friend of the friend of the xyz who works at Novell says differently. Get it?.
And by the way if you could go through the Novell website and provide proof to the contrary of the above in the form of an official Novell statement, it would help cut short any Ramayanic discourse on the motives, content and intentions of all parties and their licences.
So instead of wasting our time decoding random licence symbols and legalese, just use several of the other distros that have a rock solid reuputaion for upholding freedom and staying away from the companies responsible for the OS mess. Debian, Ubuntu/Kubntu, Gentoo, Sabyon, RH, Fedora, Knoppix etc etc
On 8/29/07, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
However avoid Novell-Suse like the plague (at least get rid of it within 180 days if u must taste forbidden fruit). Reason - you are in a legal limbo with that distro.
openSUSE too ?
Regards, Mohan S N
On Wednesday 29 August 2007 18:06, Mohan Nayaka wrote:
On 8/29/07, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
However avoid Novell-Suse like the plague (at least get rid of it within 180 days if u must taste forbidden fruit). Reason - you are in a legal limbo with that distro.
openSUSE too ?
A new iso 10.3 ahd to be released due to some licence issue. But i cant find any licence on the openSuse.org website. search for licence and u will find all sorts of junk except the licence.
so who's going to bother with that when u have 10 other alternatives to choose from.
On Thu, 2007-08-30 at 12:08 +0530, jtd wrote:
A new iso 10.3 ahd to be released due to some licence issue. But i cant find any licence on the openSuse.org website. search for licence and u will find all sorts of junk except the licence.
so who's going to bother with that when u have 10 other alternatives to choose from.
I dont mean to take this discussion off topic but what the heck is so attractive about SuSE Linux? I've seen it a couple of times, I didnt see anything different from other distros. The UI wasn't even that polished. It didn't do anything so different that we don't have Free alternatives to it! I'd say Ubuntu, Gentoo, Debian, Fedora, Slackware, Sabayon are much better alternatives.
On Thursday 30 Aug 2007 13:01:29 Dinesh Joshi wrote:
I dont mean to take this discussion off topic but what the heck is so attractive about SuSE Linux? I've seen it a couple of times, I didnt see anything different from other distros. The UI wasn't even that polished. It didn't do anything so different that we don't have Free alternatives to it! I'd say Ubuntu, Gentoo, Debian, Fedora, Slackware, Sabayon are much better alternatives.
The thing is, people other than you also have likes, dislikes, opinions, points of view etc. For example, I don't know about anyone else, but I dislike the way you state your opinions. Now that's just my opinion.
Are we OT already?
On Thursday 30 August 2007 13:43, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
The thing is, people other than you also have likes, dislikes, opinions, points of view etc.
We are talking of technical, commercial and legal aspects - all of which are grounded in fact and logic - not the color of somebody's undepants
For example, I don't know about anyone else, but I dislike the way you state your opinions. Now that's just my opinion.
Are we OT already?
the digressed discusion was about licences and alleged fud But your abv sentence is definetly ot. Note that we still dont have any reply to our grouse about Novell's licence - Rahulkrishna Gupta has a novell.com email so i presume that he is a Novell employee. Searching google i find his posts from 2001 so i presume he is quite thoroughly aware of the poltics of freesoftware. So his statement about me spreadind fud is ????. It happens all the time all over the world, make a statement about Novell licence and someone will spring at you with inuendo. But never in all these months a simple statement of fact. These are the packages that are restricted and these are the packages that are libre. such a statement would make the Microvell deal a simple business decision not the subterfuge that it seems to us on the outside - designed to con the innocent and misappropriate from the commons.
On Thu, Aug 30, 2007 at 2:44 PM, in message
200708301444.43214.jtd@sparc.net, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
On Thursday 30 August 2007 13:43, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
The thing is, people other than you also have likes, dislikes, opinions, points of view etc.
We are talking of technical, commercial and legal aspects - all of which are grounded in fact and logic - not the color of somebody's undepants
For example, I don't know about anyone else, but I dislike the way you state your opinions. Now that's just my opinion.
Are we OT already?
the digressed discusion was about licences and alleged fud But your abv sentence is definetly ot. Note that we still dont have any reply to our grouse about Novell's licence - Rahulkrishna Gupta has a novell.com email so i presume that he is a Novell employee. Searching google i find his posts from 2001 so i presume he is quite thoroughly aware of the poltics of freesoftware. So his statement about me spreadind fud is ????. It happens all the time all over the world, make a statement about Novell licence and someone will spring at you with inuendo. But never in all these months a simple statement of fact. These are the packages that are restricted and these are the packages that are libre. such a statement would make the Microvell deal a simple business decision not the subterfuge that it seems to us on the outside - designed to con the innocent and misappropriate from the commons.
I am not here to make any political statements. All I asked in my post was reasons for making statements like "avoid like plague", reasons which were not mentioned. And hence it was akin to spreading FUD.
Here's the definition from wikipedia
Fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD) is a sales or marketing strategy of disseminating negative (and vague) information on a competitor's product. The term originated to describe disinformation tactics in the computer hardware industry and has since been used more broadly. FUD is a manifestation of the "appeal to fear."
I believe you were doing just that in the absence of any concrete reasons/facts to back your statement.
Yes I work with Novell and I am not hiding it. But it was not in good taste to look up my history or antecedents, things which had nothing to do with my query.
Innuendo = disparaging remarks. I don't think I made any. All I did was request you to provide the basis for your statements.
Regarding your statement of information not being made available, a little effort on your part would have lead you to http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/
A lot of information on the agreement is available on this site.
If you are still not convinced, please go ahead and form your opinion. To use or not to use SUSE is your choice. But please refrain from making the kind of statements you did without fact and logic.
I believe one of the objective of this list is to engage in constructive discussions on Linux and Open Source. I am all for it. But if you want to get into a slanging match of us vs Novell, then I am not interested and will desist from posting any further comments on this topic.
Regards, Rahul
On Friday 31 August 2007 01:51, Rahulkrishna Gupta wrote:
the digressed discusion was about licences and alleged fud But your abv sentence is definetly ot. Note that we still dont have any reply to our grouse about Novell's licence - Rahulkrishna Gupta has a novell.com email so i presume that he is a Novell employee. Searching google i find his posts from 2001 so i presume he is quite thoroughly aware of the poltics of freesoftware. So his statement about me spreadind fud is ????. It happens all the time all over the world, make a statement about Novell licence and someone will spring at you with inuendo. But never in all these months a simple statement of fact. These are the packages that are restricted and these are the packages that are libre. such a statement would make the Microvell deal a simple business decision not the subterfuge that it seems to us on the outside - designed to con the innocent and misappropriate from the commons.
I am not here to make any political statements. All I asked in my post was reasons for making statements like "avoid like plague", reasons which were not mentioned. And hence it was akin to spreading FUD.
You dont read the net i suppose?. Or Novell's licence?
Here's the definition from wikipedia
Fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD) is a sales or marketing strategy of disseminating negative (and vague) information on a competitor's product. The term originated to describe disinformation tactics in the computer hardware industry and has since been used more broadly. FUD is a manifestation of the "appeal to fear."
I believe you were doing just that in the absence of any concrete reasons/facts to back your statement.
That is what you were doing. The reasons and facts are easily available on the net. Unlike the details of Novells agreement with M$
Yes I work with Novell and I am not hiding it. But it was not in good taste to look up my history or antecedents, things which had nothing to do with my query.
Mails to public mailing list archived on the web are public not private. dont sent mails to public mailing list and nobody from the public will read them.
I have explained my reasoning in the mail. But i will spell it out in plain english just for you. You were implying that i was spreading fud. Which means that you are a new bie or lying. The details obtained from the net shows that you are not a newbie.
Innuendo = disparaging remarks. I don't think I made any. All I did was request you to provide the basis for your statements.
When you say FUD it means dispensing vague and negative information also used more broadly to imply false and msleading info. You did make a disparaging remark.
Regarding your statement of information not being made available, a little effort on your part would have lead you to http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/ A lot of information on the agreement is available on this site.
Ha Ha. Plenty of the friends of the friends pating each other on the cleverness. Some pages of Novell's stand on the deal and some pages of M$ stand contradicting Novell's stand. Pages with lines like "as well as a version of Linux that is covered with respect to Microsoft’s intellectual property rights." (this one from the faq) and "Our interest in signing this agreement was to secure interoperability and joint sales agreements, but Microsoft asked that we cooperate on patents as well, and so a patent cooperation agreement was included as a part of the deal. In this agreement, Novell and Microsoft each promise not to sue the other's customers for patent infringement." (this one from community_open_letter.html)
Is that an agreement that Novell distros use M$ patents NOoo it's there just cause M$ asked to put it there u know. It doesnt mean a thing. Nothing about redistribution of NovellSuse distros or additions. Just to update you on one of the terms of the gpl. All gpl software can be redistributed and reused. Precisely what this deal tries to prevent. And before you accuse me pf picking parts that suit me, most dont care about what money they sponge off each other, all we want to know is what patents u are talking of.
If you are still not convinced,
Ya iam convinced even more that what i said was correct.
please go ahead and form your opinion. To use or not to use SUSE is your choice. But please refrain from making the kind of statements you did without fact and logic.
Avoid Novellsuse like the plague because Novell does not clarify which parts of their distro uses M$ patents and hence cannot be redistributed. You stand to get contaminated unless you are capable of analysing the distro and the licence coverage of the relevant parts. And then too you would be at risk.
I believe one of the objective of this list is to engage in constructive discussions on Linux and Open Source. I am all for it.
Which parts of a NovellSuse distro are redistributable and which are not? that is constructive discussion.
But if you want to get into a slanging match of us vs Novell, then I am not interested and will desist from posting any further comments on this topic.
Good for you and the rest of us. Dont accuse me of FUD.
Instead read up all the pages you pointed at on http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/ and tell us about the two things that are important which patents and what packages are not redistributable.
On Thu, 2007-08-30 at 13:43 +0530, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
The thing is, people other than you also have likes, dislikes, opinions, points of view etc. For example, I don't know about anyone else, but I dislike the way you state your opinions. Now that's just my opinion.
Flame bait? Geez...grow up.
The issue is absolutely nothing to do with anybody's likes/dislikes. The issue is about unsuspecting newbies falling into the microvell trap.
Are we OT already?
Are personal attacks counted as OT?!
On Thursday 30 Aug 2007 16:43:27 Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Thu, 2007-08-30 at 13:43 +0530, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
The thing is, people other than you also have likes, dislikes, opinions, points of view etc. For example, I don't know about anyone else, but I dislike the way you state your opinions. Now that's just my opinion.
Flame bait? Geez...grow up.
Heh. No.
The issue is absolutely nothing to do with anybody's likes/dislikes. The issue is about unsuspecting newbies falling into the microvell trap.
<quote> I dont mean to take this discussion off topic but what the heck is so attractive about SuSE Linux? I've seen it a couple of times, I didnt see anything different from other distros. The UI wasn't even that polished. It didn't do anything so different that we don't have Free alternatives to it! I'd say Ubuntu, Gentoo, Debian, Fedora, Slackware, Sabayon are much better alternatives. </quote>
That's opinion. You're not talking anything technical or objective. You're talking relative terms.
And anyway, do notice the fact that quite a few opensuse developers contribute a lot of good stuff.
Are we OT already?
Are personal attacks counted as OT?!
Yeah I guess they are. So, I'm not allowed to state my opinion about you but you're allowed to attack Novell/SuSE?
On Thu, 2007-08-30 at 18:45 +0530, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
Heh. No.
It surely looked like to me. Oh I'm sorry, I just gave another opinion.
That's opinion. You're not talking anything technical or objective. You're talking relative terms.
Yes an opinion on the background of the microvell deal. It stressed on the fact that there are better alternatives to SuSE. And that everythings possible in other distros too and they're equally, if not better, at the user experience.
And anyway, do notice the fact that quite a few opensuse developers contribute a lot of good stuff.
Yes I do notice that fact. I ( and possible millions of others ) are not happy with the microvell deal and the implications on the community. Hence the SuSE cricism / bashing / whatever you want to call it.
Yeah I guess they are. So, I'm not allowed to state my opinion about you but you're allowed to attack Novell/SuSE?
Your opinion about me has nothing technical OR objective ( to quote you ). You're not even on the subject!!!
On 30-Aug-07, at 6:45 PM, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
And anyway, do notice the fact that quite a few opensuse developers contribute a lot of good stuff.
also, for the ordinary user who just wants things to work, Suse, along with Mandriva are the two distros that really rock. Further Novell has deep roots in India and a huge support infrastructure, It, along with Redhat are the only two options government and industry can go for. No other distro offers support in India. In addition tamilnadu has just installed about 50,000 Suse computers across the state. These are facts. Live with them - no use spouting ideology - concretely what are we going to do about this?
On Friday 31 August 2007 07:05, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 30-Aug-07, at 6:45 PM, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
And anyway, do notice the fact that quite a few opensuse developers contribute a lot of good stuff.
also, for the ordinary user who just wants things to work, Suse, along with Mandriva are the two distros that really rock. Further Novell has deep roots in India and a huge support infrastructure, It,
All the strengths and they go and shoot themselves in both feet. The deal brings Novell in M$ gunsight the moment it expires in 4 yrs. Ifact proly much earlier given that gplV3 adoption is happening a lot faster and Linus who was very opposed now finding it more to his liking. Including closed bits in a distro makes these bits the wealest link in the reliability / maintaiability / performance chain and will reduce a distro to the weakeness of the closed code vendor. In short companies like Novell are bartering away their strength for a weakness in order to gain a very temp advantage. Infact such distros will be an order of magnitude weaker than the closed vendor. Precisely what M$ wants.
along with Redhat are the only two options government and industry can go for. No other distro offers support in India. In addition tamilnadu has just installed about 50,000 Suse computers across the state. These are facts. Live with them - no use spouting ideology - concretely what are we going to do about this?
explain the dangers to anyone who cares to listen.
On Fri, Aug 31, 2007 at 10:31 AM, in message
200708311031.06423.jtd@sparc.net, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
On Friday 31 August 2007 07:05, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 30-Aug-07, at 6:45 PM, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
And anyway, do notice the fact that quite a few opensuse developers contribute a lot of good stuff.
also, for the ordinary user who just wants things to work, Suse, along with Mandriva are the two distros that really rock. Further Novell has deep roots in India and a huge support infrastructure, It,
All the strengths and they go and shoot themselves in both feet. The deal brings Novell in M$ gunsight the moment it expires in 4 yrs. Ifact proly much earlier given that gplV3 adoption is happening a lot faster and Linus who was very opposed now finding it more to his liking.
- Speculation!! - Also I would suggest you to read Clause 11( related to patents) of GPL v3 in its entirety . I am not lawyer not do I have any legal background. But it doesn't it mention something about agreements made prior to 28 March 2007.
Including closed bits in a distro makes these bits the wealest link in the reliability / maintaiability / performance chain and will reduce a distro to the weakeness of the closed code vendor. In short companies like Novell are bartering away their strength for a weakness in order to gain a very temp advantage. Infact such distros will be an order of magnitude weaker than the closed vendor. Precisely what M$ wants.
- Closed source applications are only included in the enterprise distributions ie. SUSE Linux Enterprise Server / Desktop which are any way not targeted at the home user segment. Why are they included ? Because the end customer wants the functionality and does not want to get into the mess of what is open-source and what is closed-source. They just want things to work. And FYI, any applications that have patent or license issues are not bundled with these distributions either. However, these distributions do bundle licensed software which may not be opensource ie. Acrobat Reader, RealPlayer, Flash Player, Java
- If you want a completely open-source product, look at openSUSE.
along with Redhat are the only two options government and industry can go for. No other distro offers support in India. In addition tamilnadu has just installed about 50,000 Suse computers across the state. These are facts. Live with them - no use spouting ideology - concretely what are we going to do about this?
explain the dangers to anyone who cares to listen.
- You are free to do that as is anybody else. But please provide complete information/facts instead of opinionated statements lacking in facts
Regards, Rahul
On Friday 31 August 2007 11:50, Rahulkrishna Gupta wrote:
All the strengths and they go and shoot themselves in both feet. The deal brings Novell in M$ gunsight the moment it expires in 4 yrs. Ifact proly much earlier given that gplV3 adoption is happening a lot faster and Linus who was very opposed now finding it more to his liking.
- Speculation!!
Absolutely. Who cares if Novell sinks tomorrow.
- Also I would suggest you to read Clause 11( related to patents)
of GPL v3 in its entirety . I am not lawyer not do I have any legal background. But it doesn't it mention something about agreements made prior to 28 March 2007.
So you are going to give the the customer stuff dated 28 Mar 2007 or earlier in 2012?. Good for him i suppose.
- Closed source applications are only included in the enterprise
distributions ie. SUSE Linux Enterprise Server / Desktop which are any way not targeted at the home user segment. Why are they included ? Because the end customer wants the functionality and does not want to get into the mess of what is open-source and what is closed-source. They just want things to work. And FYI, any applications that have patent or license issues are not bundled with these distributions either.
That does not in any way change the fact that customers who use these apps are still exposed to the same problems they are trying to avoid. But like i said earlier each to his own poison.
- If you want a completely open-source product, look at openSUSE.
where is the distro licence? could not find it at openSuse.org
along with Redhat are the only two options government and industry can go for. No other distro offers support in India. In addition tamilnadu has just installed about 50,000 Suse computers across the state. These are facts. Live with them - no use spouting ideology - concretely what are we going to do about this?
explain the dangers to anyone who cares to listen.
- You are free to do that as is anybody else. But please provide
complete information/facts instead of opinionated statements lacking in facts
You need to read up Novells' website FIRST, instead of accusing others of FUD and trying to justify the Microvell deal when the data provided on Novell's website says things like "In this agreement, Novell and Microsoft each promise not to sue the other's customers for patent infringement."
On 8/31/07, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
On Friday 31 August 2007 11:50, Rahulkrishna Gupta wrote:
I believe the OP must be thoroughly confused / dejected by now - hope he doesn't go and install XP.
On Friday 31 August 2007 12:38, jtd wrote:
[snip] where is the distro licence? could not find it at openSuse.org
I couldn't find a licence either, but did find this, which seems to rest this particular discussion at least:
--- http://en.opensuse.org/How_to_Participate#Suggest_New_Features_or_Software
Suggest New Features or Software
Visit the Wishlists page and pick a category where you can add your suggestion. You can suggest a new application in a special Package Wishlist. Please edit the table there and add your wishes. Only software with an OSI-compliant open-source license will be added to the openSUSE project. ---
I presume that if only OSD compliant software will be used for future additions, the earlier software included is also OSD compliant.
Regards,
-- Raju
On Friday 31 August 2007 13:23, Raj Mathur wrote:
On Friday 31 August 2007 12:38, jtd wrote:
[snip] where is the distro licence? could not find it at openSuse.org
I couldn't find a licence either, but did find this, which seems to rest this particular discussion at least:
http://en.opensuse.org/How_to_Participate#Suggest_New_Features_or_S oftware
Suggest New Features or Software
Visit the Wishlists page and pick a category where you can add your suggestion. You can suggest a new application in a special Package Wishlist. Please edit the table there and add your wishes. Only software with an OSI-compliant open-source license will be added to the openSUSE project.
I presume that if only OSD compliant software will be used for future additions, the earlier software included is also OSD compliant.
No. Because OSI approved licences can mean anything eg. CDDL and a wierdo Nokia licence. Free in their own jails. And OSI is deliberating the approval of some M$ licence which is anything but open. Hmmm. No i am sure that the two have nothing in common and only the customers best interests are in consideration as customers are craving for the crack that they are living on and it is sooo cruel to deny them their fix.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On Friday 31 August 2007 14:04, jtd wrote:
[snip] No. Because OSI approved licences can mean anything eg. CDDL and a wierdo Nokia licence. Free in their own jails. And OSI is deliberating the approval of some M$ licence which is anything but open. Hmmm. No i am sure that the two have nothing in common and only the customers best interests are in consideration as customers are craving for the crack that they are living on and it is sooo cruel to deny them their fix.
Yes, the OSI doesn't necessarily view things exactly as FSF does. IMO that's no reason to write off the OSD (Open Source Definition, of which they are the stewards), as without value. As for the CDDL (I don't know which Nokia licence you are referring to), it is recognised as a free software licence incompatible with the GPL by FSF, so I see no issues with OSI approval: http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/index_html/view?searchterm=cddl
The function of the OSI is to accept each licence that is submitted for approval. Whether the licence actually gets approved or not is up to the OSI Licence Committee, which usually bases its decision on public discussion in an open forum (licence-discuss mailing list). There is no way the OSI can turn around to MS and say, ``yeah, your licence meets the OSD, but you're MS, so, er, we're not considering it at all, sucks be to you.'' -- impartiality and openness are the price you pay for stewardship. And if you've been following the licence-discuss mailing list (as I have), you will see that the outcome in the case of the MS-CL and MS-PL isn't clear-cut at all. There are strong arguments both for and against approval of the licences, with most of the discussion going into such abstract legal concepts that I usually just fall asleep reading the mails ;) The question really is whether accepting one (or both) MS licences will help or harm FOSS in the long term, and, once my knee-jerk reaction (NO! :) is completed, I for one don't really have an answer to that question.
The OSI is doing its best in a rapidly-changing world (who would have thought even 2 years ago that MS would be submitting licences for OSI approval?), and there are bound to be groups of people whose world-view diverges significantly from theirs. You can call them a bunch of inconsequential jerks, and move on, or you can appreciate the skill with which they are striving to balance hundreds of conflicting interests to ensure that neither the FLOSS community nor corporates lose out in the battles that are being played out every day in courts, board rooms, government offices, educational institutions and homes. The choice is yours.
Finally, as Eben Moglen said, have no illusions -- we are in a war, and it will be fought to the finish.
$disclaimer[0]: I am on the board of OSI.
$disclaimer[1]: Not speaking for the OSI.
Regards,
- -- Raju - -- Raj Mathur raju@kandalaya.org http://kandalaya.org/ Freedom in Technology & Software || September 2007 || http://freed.in/ GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5 0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F PsyTrance & Chill: http://schizoid.in/ || It is the mind that moves
On Friday 31 August 2007 15:25, Raj Mathur wrote:
On Friday 31 August 2007 14:04, jtd wrote:
[snip] No. Because OSI approved licences can mean anything eg. CDDL and a wierdo Nokia licence. Free in their own jails. And OSI is deliberating the approval of some M$ licence which is anything but open. Hmmm. No i am sure that the two have nothing in common and only the customers best interests are in consideration as customers are craving for the crack that they are living on and it is sooo cruel to deny them their fix.
Yes, the OSI doesn't necessarily view things exactly as FSF does. IMO that's no reason to write off the OSD (Open Source Definition, of which they are the stewards), as without value.
Not the definition, just the OSI.
As for the CDDL (I don't know which Nokia licence you are referring to), it is recognised as a free software licence incompatible with the GPL by FSF, so I see no issues with OSI approval: http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/index_html/view?searchterm=cd dl
"Also, it terminates in retaliation for certain aggressive uses of patents. So, a module covered by the GPL and a module covered by the CDDL cannot legally be linked together "
As i said the cddl is free in it's own jail. Not as u make it out to be "just a little" different, and partly acceptable by the FSF. You cant use cddl code outside of solaris.
The function of the OSI is to accept each licence that is submitted for approval.
Even when it discriminates against different classes of users, in direct contradiction of the OSD? Like the cddl.?
Whether the licence actually gets approved or not is up to the OSI Licence Committee, which usually bases its decision on public discussion in an open forum (licence-discuss mailing list). There is no way the OSI can turn around to MS and say, ``yeah, your licence meets the OSD,
It does not meet the OSD.
but you're MS, so, er, we're not considering it at all, sucks be to you.'' -- impartiality and openness are the price you pay for stewardship.
"Your licence discriminates against different classes of users so stop wasting our time" is the right answer. And should have been for several OSI approved licences CDDL included.
You can call them a bunch of inconsequential jerks, and move on, or you can appreciate the skill with which they are striving to balance hundreds of conflicting interests to ensure that neither the FLOSS community nor corporates lose out in the battles that are being played out every day in courts, board rooms, government offices, educational institutions and homes. The choice is yours.
Strange that the compromises by the OSI (so far) has always been about resricting users freedom, as opposed to the FSF which always upholds freedom.
Finally, as Eben Moglen said, have no illusions -- we are in a war, and it will be fought to the finish.
Naturally. given that the money bags have to compete like the rest of us with innovation, service and costs, rather than vote buying, prior art patents, shady deals and law suits.
Hello, I have a peculiar problem with my system date. I'm using debian "testing" with KDE 3.5. When i set the date, either through the KDE control center, or through the backend using the "date" command (as root ofcourse), it gets reset everytime i reboot my m/c. Btw, i have a hp (Compaq nc6400) lappy. Actually, the problem seems to be with the locale. In control center, if i set the time, with the locale, after a reboot, the same time is shown as UTC. Whereas, if i set the UTC time through the "date command" (i don't know how to pass locale to date command, so i'm assuming that it sets the UTC time), then after reboot, the UTC time itself moves 5.5 hrs ahead :(
Thanks a lot in advance. regards, Pradnyesh.
On Friday 31 August 2007 11:50, Rahulkrishna Gupta wrote:
[snip]
- Speculation!!
- Also I would suggest you to read Clause 11( related to patents) of
GPL v3 in its entirety . I am not lawyer not do I have any legal background. But it doesn't it mention something about agreements made prior to 28 March 2007. [more snip]
If you want the story as it currently stands, MS has painted itself into a corner, and presumably its partners will also suffer the fallout:
Microsux Says It Is Not Bound by GPLv3: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2155119,00.asp
Microsux cannot declare itself exempt from the requirements of GPLv3: http://www.fsf.org/news/microsoft_response
The patent agreement is likely to cause MS and allies more heartache than profit in the foreseeable future.
Regards,
-- Raju
On Friday 31 August 2007 13:14, Raj Mathur wrote:
On Friday 31 August 2007 11:50, Rahulkrishna Gupta wrote:
[snip]
- Speculation!!
- Also I would suggest you to read Clause 11( related to patents)
of GPL v3 in its entirety . I am not lawyer not do I have any legal background. But it doesn't it mention something about agreements made prior to 28 March 2007. [more snip]
If you want the story as it currently stands, MS has painted itself into a corner, and presumably its partners will also suffer the fallout:
Microsux Says It Is Not Bound by GPLv3: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2155119,00.asp
Microsux cannot declare itself exempt from the requirements of GPLv3: http://www.fsf.org/news/microsoft_response
The patent agreement is likely to cause MS and allies more heartache than profit in the foreseeable future.
And while M$ and partners continue in their deranged ways with patents and OOXML vote buying in Sweden, Denmark, Vietnam and elsewhere, customers who come to use freesoftware get bitten by the not-so-free-software disguised as opensource. All though this was not the intention of opensource promoters, the opensource monicker is being ruthless exploited to the point where it will actually end up locking in the customer or expose him to litigation.
In hindsight RMS un comprimising stand on freedom rings truer everyday.
On 31-Aug-07, at 10:31 AM, jtd wrote:
along with Redhat are the only two options government and industry can go for. No other distro offers support in India. In addition tamilnadu has just installed about 50,000 Suse computers across the state. These are facts. Live with them - no use spouting ideology - concretely what are we going to do about this?
explain the dangers to anyone who cares to listen.
please come to the next chennai lug meeting and explain to them that when they go across tamilnadu to train 50K people in the use of SUSE linux that they are supposed to do this, and also how they are supposed to do this.
On 8/30/07, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
The issue is absolutely nothing to do with anybody's likes/dislikes. The issue is about unsuspecting newbies falling into the microvell trap.
Personal experience: newbies take well to Mandriva. Heck, I liked it a lot too.
On 30-Aug-07, at 7:20 PM, Nishit Dave wrote:
The issue is absolutely nothing to do with anybody's likes/ dislikes. The issue is about unsuspecting newbies falling into the microvell trap.
Personal experience: newbies take well to Mandriva. Heck, I liked it a lot too.
even oldbies like me love it
On Thursday 30 August 2007 13:01, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Thu, 2007-08-30 at 12:08 +0530, jtd wrote:
A new iso 10.3 ahd to be released due to some licence issue. But i cant find any licence on the openSuse.org website. search for licence and u will find all sorts of junk except the licence.
so who's going to bother with that when u have 10 other alternatives to choose from.
I dont mean to take this discussion off topic but what the heck is so attractive about SuSE Linux? I've seen it a couple of times, I didnt see anything different from other distros.
There isnt. except afaik the nvidia and proly other closed drivers. Also (i presume ) the poisoned version will interwork better in a doze environment. so once a non-politcal novice starts using he is likely to try the poisoned one and find things very nice. What is wrong in that is that the novice is not making an informed decision. Once he knows who cares what he uses - each one to his own poison.
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Dinesh Joshi -
jtd -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
mehul -
Mohan Nayaka -
Mrugesh Karnik -
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Pradnyesh Sawant -
Rahulkrishna Gupta -
Raj Mathur -
Raza Sayed -
Rony -
Roshan