Fsf-friends

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3393 discussions

FairPlay is now Hymn
by Rakesh 'arky' Ambati 11 May '04

11 May '04

Hi list, The project has been renamed Hymn, according to Anand Babu, the maintainer of the project. It is being hosted on two sites by a US-based hosting service provider. Babu said last month that the project would be hosted outside the US. Read the complete story here. http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/main_news.cfm?NewsID=8637 cheers --arky __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover

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Re: [Fsf-friends] Has anyone tried using Knoppix 3.3 ?
by "Kenneth Wong <ken＠apdip.net>"＠apdip.net 09 May '04

09 May '04

Ramanraj K <ramanraj(a)md4.vsnl.net.in> wrote .. > I just tried using Knoppix 3.3 that came with the May issue of > LinuxForYou. Looks like good free software! Warning - not all of Knoppix is Free Software. Some things like acrobat reader (4.0) aren't free software. That said, it's possible to use only the free parts and have a fully functional system. Knoppix 3.4 just came out last week also and it supports even more hardware than 3.3. The live-CD is a wonderful thing for introducing people to free software. -- Kenneth Wong IOSN Programme Consultant, UNDP-APDIP, Malaysia DID: +603 2091 5169 Fax: +603 2093 9740 UNDP Asia Pacific Development Information Programme: http://www.apdip.net

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Has anyone tried using Knoppix 3.3 ?
by Tarun Gaur 08 May '04

08 May '04

Hi Ramanraj, Knoppix 3.3 Its a good one. I liked it too. I have always closely watched their work. Knoppix like projects could help us get over with preinstalled proprietry software. I consider it to be very good work. A good ambassador to our philosophy. regards, tarun _________________________________________________________________ Get head-hunted by 10,000 recruiters. http://go.msnserver.com/IN/35984.asp Post your CV on naukri.com today.

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FREEDOM, PHILOSOPHY and FREEDOM SOFTWARE
by Tarun Gaur 08 May '04

08 May '04

Hi Harish, Great to have an enthu response to my mail from you. On building the masses ... atleast we agree that masses need to be built. Let agree to disagree. You build the mass your way, i will build it my way; with mutual respect for the philosophy.;) I repeat again and again. You and many others are misquoting me. I never mean to say that Free Software is not good or it is not tending to be good. Still, Philosophically speaking it sounds great talking about the fact that "promote the philosophy and good software follows" .... Its like saying promote the brand name and products will follow. Sell promises the action will follow. Show rosy pictures stuffed with philosophy, the dreamland will follow. An idealistic society with FREEDOM for all and everyone will understand on their own. Social Change ... on its own. History is witness ... aggressors gain resources, promote philosophies, accumulate knowledge and are remembered. REST are a part of never existant idealistic society of Socrates. A PHILOSOPHICAL MINORITY. No friend, the actions speak louder than words. Give them free good software, you will not need to support the philosophy. The philosophy will travel on its own. I will give you an example here ... Linux happened and people saw the potential and RMS was able to push the philosophy, first in a very minority community writing some "GOOD" software, then they were able to promote their philosophy because of their work with some GOOD Software and attain wider acceptance. Lets agree to disagree here. I strongly believe that philosophies are duds without followers and philosophies turn into mass revolutions only when promoted to show an effect on masses. I am not saying Linux and other Free software projects are not doing that; neither i have anywhere said that Free software philosophy is flawed. Both can be promoted concurrently and you cant ignore either of them. Still statistics dont support that philosophy is seeping in. (I dont mean i dont understand the philosophy) When this thread started, it was because there was this respected end user called Mr Rammanohar Reddy (Editor, The Hindu); who genuinely tried working with Linux and dumped it for Windows after 1 month of frantically trying to set his Display of KDE right. The moment i tried to put his mail across to the list ... we had responses like "I dont Care" ; "Who cares till i am happy" ; to hell with what Mr Rammanohar thinks". What a way to promote a philosophy. Another wonderful hilarious way is .. I am happy, my friend called Mr. NASA and Mr. ISP is happy. Now i dont care whether kids are following it or not; whether schools are teaching it or not; whether journalists, doctors, lawyers and each one of them out there is using free software or not. I am happy till philosophy is realised but i wont use good free software as an agent to promote the philosophy. My question is friend ... then how will you do it ... Come on lets do 10,000 road shows singing the philosophy. Lets see how many switch. [ ;) though i dont mind doing 1 or 2 .. lol ] Whenever i come across ancdotes and examples of being happy with Free software, they are from our highly enlightened friends (FSF evanglists and Open Source guys - Primarily techos). I am yet to see very happy masses. Good Free Software is the ambassador for our philosophy. Just to add to your experience with Laptops, 2 months back i bought a Sony and got Linux preinstalled on demand; i succeded where you failed. But i really dont care about my own experience or your experience with Linux and free software because you and me are a MINORITY - a small drop in the ocean. What is important is that the masses start thinking what you and me think. The philosophy is not promoted by "I dont care" attitutes. A sad thing is that from so many days we have been discussing this issue ... Everyone seems to catch the FREE vs GOOD debate but manages to miss the point. The point is that ..... An end user is not happy. Lets get togather and help him out. By doing this we are not hurting the philosophy but supporting it by our actions. The RED HAT thing, i will explain again .. they are launching servers ... price range $1000 to $3500. It just the start, then comes the services bug in terms of more software. Though open source, completely open source. Is this what Free sofware all about ... RMS please comment !! Who are they? the Red Hat people .. how did they start? Who knows it better than RMS? As per you billions will never be affected by "free/non-free nonsense"; Friend there are thousands of philosophies that are born and die every single day, the ones who attain critical mass are the ones which evolve and are fiercely promoted ... For how many more years are we going to hide under the garb of saying ... "It is just a start" .... GNU project was launched in 1984 .. its already 20 years ... Its not a start anymore. ITS TIME TO GAIN CRITICAL MASS !! hail fsf, tarun _________________________________________________________________ Easiest Money Transfer to India. Send Money To 6000 Indian Towns. http://go.msnserver.com/IN/48198.asp Easiest Way To Send Money Home!

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FREEDOM, PHILOSOPHY and FREEDOM SOFTWARE
by Tarun Gaur 08 May '04

08 May '04

>From: Harish Narayanan <harish(a)gamebox.net> >To: Tarun Gaur <gaur_tarun(a)hotmail.com> >CC: fsf-friends(a)mm.gnu.org.in >Subject: Re: FREEDOM, PHILOSOPHY and FREEDOM SOFTWARE >Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 19:12:55 -0400 > >I can't help it, I better get these out of the way, >- Curious, why do you keep switching to all capital letters at arbitrary >points. It doesn't add to clarity, but I keep interpreting it as you're >screaming. >- Why don't you continue responses without changing the subject line? >- Again, freedom is a noun. Freedom software sounds very odd >- The reason that email you forwarded aggravated many people, was the way >in which it was suddenly thrust in. A little bit of etiquette can go a long >way. (Interpretation is subject to the index of one's own mind, still respecting your opinion i will not use capital letters, though sometimes you have to be loud to reach some deaf ears) I am not really worried about your obsession with nouns and verbs ... and neither did i thrust anything on anyone. It was not a junk proprietry windows source code that i forwarded or a secret note describing the rigging in American elections ... it was a simple mail describing an end user's experience with linux. I was not contesting the philosophy in this mail, nevertheless it seems like it is useless discussing it anymore ... cause i think very few are concerned on what is the importance of a good end user experience with free software and its relation to promotion of the philosophy. > >No one is misquoting anyone. Either your usage of words or tone seem to >mean or imply that free software as it is today is lacking. You keep >talking about, for instance, > Misquoting was a subtle expression ... seems like understanding the concern is a bit difficult for you here. >- "improving" to attract the masses, >- asking everyone to see it as an end user as opposed to a hacker (I safely >assumed this meant, hackers to some extent are more familiar with the >internals, so can deal easier with software that is superficially >unfriendly), >- the end user is not happy, or >- plugging all the holes so that the business men will be comfortable using >it. > >From these, among other things, some people will tend to make assumptions >regarding what you're trying to say. Maybe it is a fundamental >communication gap. > >As I've explained in another reply on another thread (because my mail >client likes to sort it like that), I bought my computer a while ago. >Things have changed in the recent past. But none of that matters, it isn't >too hard to wipe a hard drive. I was just trying to portray the hold >monopolies can have on vendors, and consequently the mind share they have >amongst users. If a person hadn't seen anything else, they'd be just as >happy with GNOME, KDE, Mac OS, Windows, BeOS, or whatever for basic needs >when introduced to them. It's when all you've ever seen and previously >worked on is, say, Windows, you will likely go with the most familiar even >when handed a choice. Even at the extent of loss of freedom. > Were we talking about monopolies of the vendors .. I think here mahesh agrees with me ... it was a matter of choice that i excercised and you did not. >RedHat is doing exactly what free software from a corporate perspective is >all about. They sell entirely free software at large markup, purely for the >peace of mind their support offers to big companies. There is nothing >preventing you, an individual, who will not want to spend the 3500$, from >obtaining any of it for free, studying it, modifying it, distributing it, >and of course, expanding upon it. > >[ http://www2.uibk.ac.at/zid/software/unix/linux/rhel-rebuild.htm ] > >They've done more than most other companies ever will for the growth of >free software. For years they've allowed anyone and everyone to download >the huge ISO images of fully free distributions fully free of charge, for >instance. Who pays for their bandwidth? How do they survive if they can't >charge for services and support centered around their products as well? If >you find it exorbitantly expensive, find another source for your software. >That is what choice is about. If no one buys it, they will have to lower >their prices or die naturally. Don't criticize or get angry, just let your >choices do the talking. > >[ http://www.redhat.com/about/mission/business_model.html ] Seems like you have something to do with Red Hat. Are you working for them or sell Red hat boxes ... Just plain curious (like you were .. not changing the subject lines) If you are not ... it would really help the philosophy and the cause for you to focus on GNU/FSF. > >If you give an average person a very good program that satisfies their >immediate requirements, they will use it. If it were free, it would be >free, if it weren't, then it wouldn't be. I have an old Mandrake box at >home which does everything my parents need, and which I can administer >remotely. Let's assume I haven't told them anything about the freedom >they're consequently enjoying. All they know is that they aren't paying for >it, it works well, and that while their friends get affected by viruses and >worms, they have no problems receiving email from their son. Where in this >was the philosophy communicated? If tomorrow the hard drive were to crash, >and the local computer man were to install Windows, they will adjust to it >and use it. I'm trying to indicate that philosophy and social implications >are bigger than just free software. > Sorry again here friend, but seems like you have graduated from your experience to your parents experience. I am talking about the generation maturing, the generation that is using XP and similar proprietry software. Give me a break. I repeat "you" and "I" are a MINORITY. We need to promote philosophy by using good free software as an ambassador to reach them and gain critical mass. You seem to pick up sentences that suit a useless argument ... ignoring the importance of good end user experience everytime. Did I ever say that philosophy is not imprortant. But i did say that free software is an ambassador of our philosophy. And philosophy and good free software compliment each other. >Give them good free software and they will use it, sure. The software will >travel on it's own. This, and the communication of ideals aren't >necessarily linked. They are using it because it's good. Give them free >software and explain to them why being free makes it inherently good, and >they will still use it. But more importantly, the ideals have also spread. > >I am willing to take my chances on another kernel stepping up to the plate >even if the Linux kernel hadn't filled a hole in the GNU system. It might >have taken more time to reach the level of adoption we see today (or maybe >even less if it were even more popular for some reason), but it would have >happened independent of Linux. Point being, there would have been someone >who valued all this (and was skilled enough) to write things that worked to >fill this void. > >And all this about fierce promotion, gaining critical mass, mass revolution >and things like that. I really wish to know what it is your aim for all of >this is. Please elaborate on what do you mean by "What my aim is" ... still i will answer ... My aim is to ensure that end user experience - especially negative is not repulsed. They are helped and philosophy reaches the masses through each one of them ... each single one of them. Its not a start anymore ... Its time to reach critical mass. hail fsf, tarun _________________________________________________________________ Contact brides & grooms FREE! http://www.shaadi.com/ptnr.php?ptnr=hmltag Only on www.shaadi.com. Register now!

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FREE SOFTWARE THAT IS GOOD ...
by Tarun Gaur 07 May '04

07 May '04

Hi harish, You are missing the point here again. It is not the words that matter. I, like you also believe that software has to be free but i strongly contest the fact that people who do not embrace it dont matter to us. They do matter and we have to make them understand why FREEDOM, FREE software and FREE GOOD SOFTWARE (is important). Just because we believe in freedom does not mean that we do not listen to what they have to say. Now, Please read my previous note again and tell me where i have said that end user is unintelligent, does not understand or does not value freedom .... The very fact that he is intelligent is an indication enough for us to convince him rather than show "I dont care, they will learn by themselves" attitude. We need to educate - rather make them aware; of our philosophy and i am sure each one of them feels as strongly for Freedom as you and I do. Sometimes as an analyst you have to keep yourself away from your own beliefs and philosophies and try and compare and criticize what you think might not be correct ... And here what i feel is that we need to value the opinion of " Intelligent end users" and be our own ciritics at every point as that would help us plug the holes and evolve. You took the discussion to "Intellectual Property Rights" and Free Software and morals and ethics of it. I think we all ... we all understand freedom, FSF and Free software very well. As per me the entire IT community put togather is not more than 2% of the world's population. We need to come out of the technical closet and think about the rest 98% of the world and how we can make them adopt our philosophy and software. And trust me for that, we dont have a choice ... WE HAVE TO BE GOOD and we are good, then why not be supportive rather than being dismissive to the "Intelligent End Users". I can also say ... I like Free Software because .... Reason 1 ...... to Reason 100. But i dont because i am more concerned and focussed to see that Free Software Philosophy penetrates to the masses. Once it does, you will see it everywhere. I again highlight; whenever we see someone saying that I have a problem with Free Software ... rather than shooting the guns at him, ask him if we could help restore his faith and then go and help him. This is in the best interest of our philosophy, cause philosophies are duds without followers. Remember, It is not you and me that decides what is good ... it is the majority and the facts. We are good, brilliant people ... we write amazing codes ... we just need to make them a bit more simple. We are doing it slowly but surely. I am not contesting here on Freedom or good or bad. I am contesting that we cant ignore 210 million people and more. We need to make them understand, enlighten them, educate them and we cant do this by shooing them away. In the proprietry world, companies like IBM, RED HAT and numberless others used Free Software Fundamentals to manouvere against Microsoft and another entry is Novell. Now these companies are also people and look at how others and Red Hat moved to take a big market share, riding on open source. What are we doing sitting and allowing them to manouvere and criticizing people cause they say that free software evangelists are deaf if not dumb. Its a simple thing friends, entertain criticizm, consult, discuss and do something about it; even if it means contesting RMS opinion. He sure started it but its freedom what it is all about .. right? Bottomline, BECOME A MASS MAJORITY RATHER THAN PHILOSOPHICAL MINORITY. hail FSF, tarun _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/

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Good FREEDOM Software
by Tarun Gaur 07 May '04

07 May '04

Hi Dr. Nagarjuna, Sorry for being a bit late in replying but let me add to Rishi's compliment that you write well and are very articulate in expressing your thoughts. I believe that you agree with me that over all we should attempt to write "good freedom software". Now by being focussed on what "good" means here you have asked a very Macro question because you, me and all our friends know that "GOOD" means different things to different people. Its an extremely relative term. Still I will try to answer your question in a very generic way and in total lay man jargon ... According to me ... 1. a software is good if it helps me achieve desired set of functional tasks with minimum focus on technicalities (end user perspective) 2. a software is better if it helps me achieve desired set of functional tasks with minimum focus on technicalities and is extremely pleasing to work with through consistent interfaces (end user perspective) 3. a software is best if it helps me achieve desired set of functional tasks with minimum focus on technicalities, is extremely pleasing to work with through consistent interfaces, has a definite growth plan, manovers to incorporate best industry practices and APPEALS TO THE MASSES. Now ... i redefine the definition of a good software here ... a good software is that tends towards the best with a plan to be the best. Over and above that, if it is FREE; masses would embrace it instantly. Dr. Nagarjun, in that case your, my and FSFs beliefs of FREEDOM SOFTWARE are realized to its full potential. I stress ... the POTENTIAL exists. If our software wins, our philosophy wins. I am not saying that we are not getting there. I stress ... We have taken giant strides in recent years. But there is a lot to be done. You may show some features and tell me that the issues i have highlighed in above points are there to some/great extent in freedom software, still my experience with end user says otherwise. I repeat ... Good to Great ... cause there is a lot to be done. On software front as well as promoting the philosophy. I was sad at seeing the reaction to a small mail from an end user "Rammanohar Reddy" with some of our friends saying it does not matter to FSF on what he or any other end user has to say on Free software/Linux. It does matter ... Friends philosophies die without mass support and appeal. Though CLASSES are using the FREE Software, still we are far away from MASSES. Statistics support what i mean. Windows XP: 210 Million Copies Sold http://www.forbes.com/business/businesstech/newswire/2004/05/03/rtr1356086.… Now my question is ... do these 210 Million people who might have bought this software dont matter to us? Some would say they dont. I would say they do. We could make them switch by helping them. another question: How many of them have heard about us and our philosophy? another question: If they have heard, How many would switch? If Yes, why and if not, why not? another question: Are they paying for the software because they hate us and our philosophy? I will answer this one - they are paying cause they dont have an option. Give them an option and trust me friends they would switch. If you think you have already given them an option then explain them your options. "I dont care attitude" does not help. 210 million people are 209 million too many to ignore. Atleast for me. Microsofts mention triggers a useless defensive reaction from a lot of our friends at FSF and elsewhere too. I am yet to understand why? We could take a leaf out from their research on customers and the expectations. I repeat FREEDOM matters, does it stop us from evolving and improving. I have said this before, i will say it again and again and again ... LETS TURN FROM A PHILOSOPHICAL MINORITY TO A MASS MAJORITY. There is a lot of work to be done. I am sure Dr. Nagarjuna is doing his part, Rishi is doing his part and i am doing mine. Lets write Good FREEDOM software. P.S. Dr. Nagarjuna and friends i assume we understand what do Masses and Classes mean. Hail FSF, Tarun ================== IF NOT I, THEN WHO? IF NOT NOW, THEN WHEN? ================== _________________________________________________________________ Watch LIVE baseball games on your computer with MLB.TV, included with MSN Premium! http://join.msn.com/?page=features/mlb&pgmarket=en-us/go/onm00200439ave/dir…

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Freedom matters - So does good software !!
by Tarun Gaur 07 May '04

07 May '04

Hi Anurag, I totally agree with you that free software can be made easy to use. I am infact not in favor of writing any software that is a nightmare to work with. That is the reason i initiated this debate by forwarding a mail from an end user to the list. Does RMS ever say that Free software should not be designed to be easy to use? i doubt. Infact we all know that Freedom matters, Free Free Free ... Lets get over with the basics and get our heads down to write good FREE software. We have the Freedom and we promote it too. .. And the world has heard us loud and clear. They say the DEVIL LIES IN THE DETAILS ... So its useless to talk about freedom and free software without backing it up with good software. We have come this far with good work. Lets just keep on doing the good work and not pay a deaf ear to end user's perspective. hail the spirit of FSF regards, tarun -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WORRY NOT ON WHAT HAS BEEN DONE, WORRY ON WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE. FOR EVOLUTION IS NOT WHAT EXISTS, IT IS WHAT WE DO WITH WHAT EXISTS. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From: fsf-discuss-request(a)mm.gnu.org.in >Reply-To: fsf-discuss(a)mm.gnu.org.in >To: fsf-discuss(a)mm.gnu.org.in >Subject: Fsf-discuss Digest, Vol 7, Issue 1 >Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 12:00:43 +0530 > >Send Fsf-discuss mailing list submissions to > fsf-discuss(a)mm.gnu.org.in > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mm.gnu.org.in/mailman/listinfo/fsf-discuss >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > fsf-discuss-request(a)mm.gnu.org.in > >You can reach the person managing the list at > fsf-discuss-owner(a)mm.gnu.org.in > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of Fsf-discuss digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. free good and easy to use software (Mathur,Anurag) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 11:57:11 +0530 >From: "Mathur,Anurag" <amathur(a)iPolicyNet.COM> >Subject: [Fsf-discuss] free good and easy to use software >To: <fsf-discuss(a)mm.gnu.org.in> >Message-ID: > <D269C7CBDF116A48982D4DC51F111BE34C22DE(a)nsezhpmail01.india.ipolicynet.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >Hi Tarun, > >Please refer to ur opening mail. >I think free software can be made good and easy to use without much effort. > >Thanks > >Anurag Mathur >iPolicy Networks > >*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* >Life is too short to be glum, put a smile on your face and spread it to >others. >*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > >

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Re: [Fsf-friends] Using Apt-spy
by Raghavendra Bhat 06 May '04

06 May '04

> I need to create list for both testing/Unstable. Can I use this with > -d option Using apt-spy for two different trees would not work out correctly. Here testing is separate and unstable is a different kind of cake altogether. Browse the site http://www.apt-get.org/ and insert appropriate lines in your /etc/apt/sources.list file instead of using apt-spy .... -- ragOO Amateur Radio VU2RGU DRM is clearly an attempt by publishers to unilaterally impose restrictions that go beyond copyright law. That is, a power grab -- RMS

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Using Apt-spy
by Rakesh 'arky' Ambati 06 May '04

06 May '04

Hello Friends, Am using Apt-spy to make my sources.list file.Here are few things am unable to do nicely*. 1) I need to create list for both testing/Unstable. Can I use this with -d option. 2) Apt-spy creates list with one or two sites.Sometimes most packages won't be found on that site,due to various reason's (don't flame,often I kindly let the mirror site about this). It would be great if you can tell me how to have secondary or bit slower site also listed too. Can you please share some of the apt-spy tricks so that I can save my bandwidth. * I can run apt-spy couple of times and cat the files ok that's not what am look for here. TIA --arky __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover

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Fsf-friends