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3393 discussions

Freedom, Merit and Control
by Krishna Pagadala 30 Apr '04

30 Apr '04

There was an interesting discussion on who controls Free Software development process. I thought that three distinct ideas were intermixed, when they should not have been. I am writing out my thoughts on the ideas. i) Freedom Free software is all about Freedom, and nobody can dictate what you can and cannot do with such software. In other words nobody has control (`cracy`) over anybody else. With regard to the linux kernel it was written that "Linus Torvalds controls the kernel development process." That is not true Linus only controls his own tree, he cannot control anybody else's tree. Anybody and everybody can have their own kernel tree and kernel development process. Also he does not have a road map of where the kernel is going, and in that sense where Linux kernel goes is more of a collaborative effort than a form of `cracy` ii) Merit I think that Linus tree has more merit in the sense that it fits the needs of various people, that any other tree I have a hope of building myself. It has been written on this list that "Linus Torvalds has much more influence in the future direction of Linux than I have." I am entirely in agreement with the idea of his having an influence on the kernel. Altough his influence comes from the merit of his ideas, he still does not have control, and if some of his ideas do not have merit they must be discarded. iii) Control I am not a believer in control (coercion), whatever disguised form it might take. It has been written on this list that "Generally open source software is a meritocracy - the "best choice" is purely based on a meritocracy. meritocracy is how all of this functions." I think that we must base our decisions on merit, however the fact that a persons ideas have merit should not mean that the person gains some form of control. `Cracy` can be and should be seperated out from merit. I think free software is about being able to recognize merit in each other and therefore build a better society, while retaining freedom. i.e. without giving up freedom, and without giving control to others. Thanks Krishna ===== To Reflect, to Inspire and to Empower http://www.employees.org/~krishnap/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover

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[Fsf-friends] Freedom to write good software! From Freedom to Free software!
by Tarun Gaur 29 Apr '04

29 Apr '04

Dear Rishi, =========================================== We regard non-free software as a problem to be solved, not as a solution to any problem. =========================================== This is the last line from the FSF-India philosophy that you sent; just thought of sending it back. I am focussing on how to help Mr. Ram. I repeat philosophies are duds if not implemented. I am just doing what i think is right. I just try to look at what is left to be done and gain some insight from end user experience and then focus on helping others do it. Thats about it. Nothing more nothing less. regards, tarun > >Where did you even assume that was part of the deal? As reagards what FSF >is >committed to promote .... please read the following text... I've copied and >pasted it from the FSF-India website. > >============================================================= >FSF India is a non-profit organisation committed to advocating, promoting >and >propagating the use and development of swatantra software in India. Our >goal >is to ensure the long term adoption of free software, and aim for the day >when all software will be free. This includes educating people about >software >freedom and convincing them that it is the freedom that matters. We regard >non-free software as a problem to be solved, not as a solution to any >problem. >============================================================= > >If you or Mr. Reddy want the Mandrake distro to have a "Rich User >Experience" >please use the link below. >http://www.mandrakesoft.com/company/contact/feedback > > > > So you mean to say that if the software come for FREE I should not >expect > > it to be good. What a foundation "WE" (FSF evangalists) are laying down >for > > others to follow. > >Again...if you are referring to the Mandrake Distro, refer to the link >mentinoed above. > >If not, get specific as to which particular free software you are talk >about >not being 'good' enough for Mr. Reddy. I'm sure there is a forum out there >that would be happy to hear yours or Mr. Reddy's feedback on how it can be >better. > > > Let me remind you I am not talking about "you", the IT guy. I am talking > > about the end user for whom computers is a tool to do his work. And >trust > > me he values "RICH USER EXPERIECE" more than getting a free software. IS > > THIS WHAT YOU CALL FREEDOM? > > >Freedom in Free software is not about price. See the following link to >understand what free software means. >http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html > >And thank you for finally making my point. He (Mr. Reddy) obviously values >"rich user experience" more than "freedom". > >What do you value more? "freedom" or "rich user experience"? > >I hope you value freedom more than software that should have "rich user >experience" ... If you do, great. Please try and talk Mr. Reddy into >attending a speech of RMS so that he could possibly moved into considering >valuing "freedom" more than "rich user experience". > >For the time being you could download this Video of RMS as it's pretty >good. > >http://audio-video.gnu.org/video/rms-speech-curitiba.mpg > >It's about 30 minutes and 55 MB in size. > >This may help bring the focus on freedom instead of Rich User Experience. > >I'd be happy to courier you and Mr. Reddy the CD if you like. Just give me >your address. I think there is a copy of this video on this month's LFY >mangazine too. > > > > FREEDOM for who? You or the MASSES? I repeat lets move from >"PHILOSOPHICAL > > MINORITY" to "MASS MAJORITY" and for masses your so called "SHALLOW" >user > > experience matters. > > >Once again... please target the disappointments of user experiences of the >software to the Mandrake Company and not FSF. > > > Windows market share is a testimony to this SHALLOW concept. > >Sure, that's because lots of people have had no choice but to pay up huge >dollars (or not) to use it. ;-) > > > I remind you again ... i am not decrying linux .... of FSF. I am myself >a > > strong supporter and have followed linux from its nacence. > > >As I mentioned in my ealier mail, I was using what I called 'Linux' since >1996, but got to realize the funda of freedom only in 2001 after attending >an >RMS speech. > >Have you ever attended one of those? > >If not you should... > > > > Anyways, its been great interacting with you .. no point in dragging >this > > any further, i dont think we are going anywhere with this. Lets agree to > > disagree. > > >It's been great interacting with you too.... However, you keep wanting to >make >your point, which I'm still struggling and wanting to understand, but at >the >same time you want to end the discussion by 'agreeing to disagree'.... > >I truely hope to succeed in communicating this funda of freedom to you and >Mr. >Reddy. > >Regards > >Rishi > _________________________________________________________________ Contact brides & grooms FREE! http://www.shaadi.com/ptnr.php?ptnr=hmltag Only on www.shaadi.com. Register now!

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FREEDOM! FREEDOM! FREEDOM!
by Tarun Gaur 29 Apr '04

29 Apr '04

Dear Rishi, I am sorry if i offended you in some manner. My idea was not to offend you but i am still a firm believer of turning springs into rivers. I value freedom as much as you do and understanding freedom is not about listening to RMS speech. Though for your information sake ... I am associated with Linux for as long as you are and have heard RMS on not just once but number of occasions. And to highlight again ... I am contributing software to FSF and not just mails. I am fine with worrying about writing the software and pitching in with my own effort. There are others to worry about philosophy. And be sure we understand philosophy as much as you do. And i intentionaly refrain from compartmentalizing LINUX. Good work does not require acknowledgement ... we all know who started it ... Thanx to RMS. My intention of sending Mr. Ram's mail was just to highlight the importance of moving ahead and what needs to be done. I am sure I will solve his problem. And this time i wont be listening to an RMS speech but doing what he preaches. Thanx but we had a good debate; this keeps the spirit alive. It would be great to make friends with you as you seem an FSF oldie too. hail FSF, tarun _________________________________________________________________ Let your desktop sizzle! Get the hottest wallpapers. http://www.msn.co.in/entertainment/ Right here at MSN Entertainment!

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Freedom {X VS X} AND Rich User Experience
by Tarun Gaur 29 Apr '04

29 Apr '04

Dear Rishi, "WE" here stands for FSF evanglists who value FREEDOM as much as you do. I really wonder whether FREEDOM again means not trying to write good software. What you call FREEDOM for yourself is the hard work of countless Open Source guys towards a common goal - promoting Free software. So you mean to say that if the software come for FREE I should not expect it to be good. What a foundation "WE" (FSF evangalists) are laying down for others to follow. Let me remind you I am not talking about "you", the IT guy. I am talking about the end user for whom computers is a tool to do his work. And trust me he values "RICH USER EXPERIECE" more than getting a free software. IS THIS WHAT YOU CALL FREEDOM? FREEDOM for who? You or the MASSES? I repeat lets move from "PHILOSOPHICAL MINORITY" to "MASS MAJORITY" and for masses your so called "SHALLOW" user experience matters. Windows market share is a testimony to this SHALLOW concept. I remind you again ... i am not decrying linux .... of FSF. I am myself a strong supporter and have followed linux from its nacence. Anyways, its been great interacting with you .. no point in dragging this any further, i dont think we are going anywhere with this. Lets agree to disagree. Regards, tarun >From: Rishi <rishi(a)gangfam.com> >To: "Tarun Gaur" <gaur_tarun(a)hotmail.com>, >anivar@linuxmail.org,fsf-friends@mm.gnu.org.in >Subject: Freedom VS Rich User Experience >Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 22:42:32 +0530 > >Hi Tarun, > > > Now, he is a live example of an END USER PERSPECTIVE on Linux Desktops. >Let > > me remind you I am not talking of Linux as a Server. > >I use Linux at home and office as a Desktop. Been doing that for the past 1 >year now.... Linux Servers have been at the office and home since 1996. >;-) > > > Now I have a question for you ... are "Diversity" and "Flexibility" > > synonyms of "Complexity" and "Non-Rich User Experience"?? > >Sure they are. But the more crucial point I'm trying to make is the Value >of >Freedom which according to me, supercedes the more shallow concept of >having >a 'Rich User Experience'..... > >This of course depends on the crux that the end-user values freedom. > >From where I sit and all the friends at FSF, I'm sure we value freedom >first >and then "Rich User Experience" > > > So, when the competetion picks up it is the BUYERS market and you have >to > > be very agile to pick up a market share. And we have to behave very > > responsibly and look at the world from customer's perspective. We have a > > big > > resposibility here. Remember we are not a market leaders but intend to >be. > > You like it or dislike it Microsoft is still there on 94% of wold's > > desktops. You know why .. because they dont ignore the suggestions of >guys > > like Ram Reddy. > > >That's the other issue.... who is 'we' ? > >FSF Friends: Are a group of people that value freedom and wish to >participate >and help people spread the concept of free software. We're not working on >becoming market leaders. > >Red Hat / Mandrake / Suse: Are comercial organizations that value the >concept >of freedom and make software products / services available to the public at >a >price. They are working on becoming market leaders. > >This is the angle that's different... There isn't software (product) to buy >in >the free software world. If at all there are services to be bought... > >1. With Free Software ... it's usually supported by the community who >provide >support through newsgroups and e-mail .... such as the FSF Friends list. > >2. With non-Free Software ... it's usually supported by the hardware / >software vendor's that's making money on selling/installing the software >product for the end-user. In the case of Windows and MS Office, hardware >vendors in India typically (90%) install it for 'free' (piracy) so that >they >get to sell a computer... > >In Mr. Reddy's case did he buy Mandrake with installation support? Or did >he >get the CDs from some guy? > >Note: Windows without installation charges cost Rs. 5-8K per PC. > >Mandrake or Redhat (Fedora) can be bought at much lower prices than 5K. > > > > Please do not look at this as a Developer, try looking at it as a >business > > man or an end user. > > >Sure... If he (Mr. Reddy) want's to install Linux he can pay someone (you) >to >do it. You could charge him Rs. 500-2000 to do the job.. I would if I were >you. > > > > We have have done a lot to reach here, lets not assume that we are the > > best, lets plug each and every hole one by one ... cause thats the only >way > > we can turn from a philosophical minority to MASS Majority. > > >Here comes that 'we' thing again. ;-) > >You need to figure out who 'we' is .... > > > > Please do not take this note as personal, it is for every Linux >Evangalist > > who thinks we are the best. If you still think so, please read the mail > > sent by Mr. Ram Reddy (and you can be sure that he is a responsible guy > > giving genuine opinion) once again. > > >His feedback, I'm sure is great... but it needs to be directed towards the >commercial organization providing the Linux Distro "Mandrake" and not the >FSF >group of friends. > > > > Lets continue to improve, to end the note .. I am going to Mr. Ram >Reddy's > > place this weekend and be sure we will win one more guy for FSF !! > > >We're here to improve our friend ship and talk about freedom. We're, at >least >I am, even here to help you out with the installation if you get stuck... >or >probably point you in some direction to get help. > >Good luck to you and Mr. Reddy. Do let us know how the installation of >Mandrake goes. > >Regards > >Rishi > _________________________________________________________________ BharatMatrimony.com. http://www.bharatmatrimony.com/cgi-bin/bmclicks1.cgi?72 The No 1 Indian matrimony.

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:) FREEDOM - I value it as much as you !!
by Tarun Gaur 29 Apr '04

29 Apr '04

Hi Friend ... FREEDOM DOES NOT MEAN BAD SOFTWARE !! AND I AM NOT DECRYING LINUX BROTHER. I know and value freedom as much as you do. But i also believe that each user shifting base from Windows to Linux matters to me. To me FREEDOM means freedom of free software to masses and i am sure Free Software is reaching there; sooner or later. LETS AGREE TO DISAGREE. Just to remind you friend, I have been associated with FSF for a long time, contributed in number of projects and am running a project at Savanah with 16 members in it. Alsp i have contributed a lot of code in APACHE. So who can understand the movement better ... regards and cheers, tarun _________________________________________________________________ Post Classifieds on MSN classifieds. http://go.msnserver.com/IN/44045.asp Buy and Sell on MSN Classifieds.

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[Fsf-friends] Free as in free beer Re: Freedom {X VS X} AND Rich User Experience
by rajeev joseph sebastian 28 Apr '04

28 Apr '04

Dear Mr Gaur, Free as in Freedom, not Free as in Free Beer. > Dear Rishi, > > "WE" here stands for FSF evanglists who value > FREEDOM as much as you do. I > really wonder whether FREEDOM again means not trying > to write good software. > What you call FREEDOM for yourself is the hard work > of countless Open Source > guys towards a common goal - promoting Free > software. Not really, FREEDOM arose from the GNU conception of Free software, not the OSI conception of free software. Of course free software is doing a LOT. Apache, et al are doing a marvellous job at the cost of fragmentation, which is the holy grail of Software Configuration Management (which I learnt in Semester 7). In any case, the end-user as you said does not _care_ whether software is Free. (but whether it is free matters to them a lot.) In that case, wouldnt it better to make Free software, than merely free software ? The usefulness, flexibility, usability etc of software is a totally seperate consideration from whether software is Free or not. The former is measured by the way the artifact operates (ie, engineering values and metrics), and latter considers the means of distribution, utilization and improvement (ie, social values and social perception of the process of engineering) > > So you mean to say that if the software come for > FREE I should not expect it > to be good. What a foundation "WE" (FSF evangalists) > are laying down for > others to follow. > I still wonder whether you are arguing on the side of Free or free software. > Let me remind you I am not talking about "you", the > IT guy. I am talking > about the end user for whom computers is a tool to > do his work. And trust me > he values "RICH USER EXPERIECE" more than getting a > free software. IS THIS > WHAT YOU CALL FREEDOM? > > FREEDOM for who? You or the MASSES? I repeat lets > move from "PHILOSOPHICAL > MINORITY" to "MASS MAJORITY" and for masses your so > called "SHALLOW" user > experience matters. > > Windows market share is a testimony to this SHALLOW > concept. windows market share is due to the inferiority of the masses: they are not fit to evaluate the choices available to them (I am also making a point abt democracy here). windows market share is due to heavy marketing ... when was the first time you saw a GNU/Linux ad on TV ? (I saw the IBM ad about 2 weeks ago) I saw the Microsoft "1 degree seperation" .NET ad about a year back (if i remember correctly). However, look at the technical market for OSs and professional software ... almost every one of those runs on Unix and variants. The technical market knows their options, and more importantly understand them. This is the method I take the side on - make every company on Earth dependent on Linux, and the rest (your so-called shallow tool-Lusers) will follow. Morover i dont see anything "RICH" about about the dry packages that comes with an MS-XP install (Solitaire, Minesweeper, Notepad, Wordpad, anything else ? oh yeah regedit). Whereas the basic install of PCQLinux .... I really LOVE gnofract4d and Celestia and OpenOffice ... that pretty much makes for a VERY rich user experience than XP could hope for (then again i'm talking from the viewpoint of a _legal_ basic installation :) ) > > I remind you again ... i am not decrying linux .... > of FSF. I am myself a > strong supporter and have followed linux from its > nacence. > On a side note, a "strong" supporter would call it GNU/Linux not merely linux ;) just joking ... Rajeev J Sebastian Stendek R&D Kochi __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover

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:)
by Tarun Gaur 28 Apr '04

28 Apr '04

Hi Friends, I understand and respect your confidence and am myself a staunch follower of FSF and open source. Infact the company where i am working is a live example where i have ensured that they have moved to linux rather than win 2003 and .NET. But Dear Rishi and Anivar, Let me give you a backgrounder. Mr. Ram Reddy is the editor at "The Hindu" and has been referred to me through another friend of ours at FSF. The reason I sent a copy of what he wrote about Linux is to initiate a debate and i am happy that we are discussing this further. Now, he is a live example of an END USER PERSPECTIVE on Linux Desktops. Let me remind you I am not talking of Linux as a Server. If you were at Microsoft or even IBM and giving statements like "I care a Damn on what Mr. Ram Reddy" thinks .... you know the result. Now I have a question for you ... are "Diversity" and "Flexibility" synonyms of "Complexity" and "Non-Rich User Experience"?? No! You can be as flexible as you want and still be Flexible and diverse. And I am not decrying Linux, i know we are reaching there slowly but surely and we all know Microsoft is struggling to retain 2 million Windows NT base. So, when the competetion picks up it is the BUYERS market and you have to be very agile to pick up a market share. And we have to behave very responsibly and look at the world from customer's perspective. We have a big resposibility here. Remember we are not a market leaders but intend to be. You like it or dislike it Microsoft is still there on 94% of wold's desktops. You know why .. because they dont ignore the suggestions of guys like Ram Reddy. Please do not look at this as a Developer, try looking at it as a business man or an end user. We have have done a lot to reach here, lets not assume that we are the best, lets plug each and every hole one by one ... cause thats the only way we can turn from a philosophical minority to MASS Majority. Please do not take this note as personal, it is for every Linux Evangalist who thinks we are the best. If you still think so, please read the mail sent by Mr. Ram Reddy (and you can be sure that he is a responsible guy giving genuine opinion) once again. Lets continue to improve, to end the note .. I am going to Mr. Ram Reddy's place this weekend and be sure we will win one more guy for FSF !! Hail FSF, regards, tarun >From: Rishi <rishi(a)gangfam.com> >To: "Anivar Aravind" <anivar(a)linuxmail.org>,"Tarun Gaur" ><gaur_tarun(a)hotmail.com>, fsf-friends(a)mm.gnu.org.in >Subject: Re: [Fsf-friends] I'll restore Linux and your confidence too !! >Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 09:18:03 +0530 > >On Tuesday 27 Apr 2004 9:25 pm, Anivar Aravind wrote: > > "Tarun Gaur" said on Mon, 26 Apr 2004 07:42:56 +0000 > > > > > I am sure i will be able to restore your confidence in Linux and open > > > source. On our front we will make every effort to ensure that the >Linux > > > is made easy for the end users. > > > > i have enough confidence on linux kernel. if u want to restore anyones > > confidence plz send personal mails to them. i dont want any mail in the > > class "opensource" through free software foundations list. > >Hi Anivar, > >I guess Tarun was just trying to get us to help Mr. Reddy. Maybe we could >be a >little helpful... what say? > > > Is FSF is alotted FSF friends list as Tarun Gaur's personal mail box? > > then rename it as gaur's-friends and unsubsribe me from it > >Just some thoughts on how to re-phrase the sentence above to achieve the >same >goal but with a more gentle approach. ;-) > >======================================================== >Hi Tarun, > >In future, could you forward the e-mail to the FSF list requesting for >assistance in helping you with getting Mr. Reddy to stay motivated with >using >free software, instead of BCC the fsf-friends list? >======================================================== > >Regards > >Rishi > _________________________________________________________________ Dont miss out on jobs that are not advertised. http://go.msnserver.com/IN/47510.asp Post your CV on naukri.com today.

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Re: PlayFair project
by Anand Babu 28 Apr '04

28 Apr '04

Hi RMS, ,----[ Richard Stallman <rms(a)gnu.org> ] | Whether PlayFair would be considered legal in the US is a hard | question, given the details of what it does. I think it is safer to | host it outside the US, in countries where there is really no law like | the DMCA. | | I am looking for help in the Brazilian government. | | If people interested in hosting the program want to talk with the | PlayFair developers, can you serve as an intermediary? `---- PlayFair author has already made me (Anand Babu) as official project-maintainer and I am part of the development team. So I will be the contact-person for this project. People from FSF-India are actively exploring possibilities to help PlayFair project, both in terms of hosting service and legal guidance. Fighting DMCA is no easy task. We would like to get as much help as possible. Thanks -- Anand Babu Free as in Freedom <www.gnu.org>

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I'll restore Linux and your confidence too !!
by Tarun Gaur 28 Apr '04

28 Apr '04

Hi Ram Sir, I am sure i will be able to restore your confidence in Linux and open source. On our front we will make every effort to ensure that the Linux is made easy for the end users. Infact the current state of Linux is that there are multiple initiatives going on to catch up with proprietry software (especially Windows), in the process you will come across multiple versions (distros) of Linux. Each one of them is unique and has its own features and set of specialization though all of them are now converging fast. These are some drawbacks of open source but the very spirit with which we have reached so far is worth acknowledging and trust me sir, the day is not far when you will see Linux replacing Windows not only on the server side, but desktops too. In your case i think the best version is Red Hat / Fedora. I will make sure that i carry them with me when i visit you. Or else if you have a special affinity towards the Mandrake magic, then we will bring that one too. regards, tarun >From: Rammanohar Reddy To: "Tarun Gaur" <gaur_tarun(a)hotmail.com> >CC: KG Kumar <kg(a)tug.org.in> >Subject: Re: Pleasure to help you Sir >Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 12:12:26 +0530 > >Thanks, Tarun > >Perhaps we should think of the next weekend -- it may otherwise be very >diffficult. > >But I must warn you that right now I am terribly disappointed with Linux -- >my attempt toload Mandrake for the 4-5 weeks have failed. And right now I >can say more Windows' reliability!! > >best > >Ram Reddy > _________________________________________________________________ Ready cash in just 72 hours. Apply Now !!! http://go.msnserver.com/IN/46922.asp

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[Fwd]: [Fsf-friends] "The free software option" by C. Rammanohar Reddy in "The Hindu"
by Mahesh T. Pai 28 Apr '04

28 Apr '04

----- Forwarded message from Ramanraj K <ramanraj(a)md4.vsnl.net.in> ----- > Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 10:12:19 +0530 > From: Ramanraj K <ramanraj(a)md4.vsnl.net.in> > Subject: [Fsf-friends] > "The free software option" by C. Rammanohar Reddy in "The Hindu" > To: fsf-friends(a)mm.gnu.org.in, rms(a)gnu.org > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.1a) Gecko/20020610 > > "The Hindu" newspaper has published in its issue dated 22nd November, > 2003, at page 10, an article titled > > "The free software option" > by > C. Rammanohar Reddy > > This is also available online at: > > http://www.hindu.com/2003/11/22/stories/2003112200721000.htm > ----- End forwarded message ----- -- +~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+ Mahesh T. Pai, LL.M., 'NANDINI', S. R. M. Road, Ernakulam, Cochin-682018, Kerala, India. http://paivakil.port5.com +~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

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