hi,
we keep hearing about projects like mentioned by Kush below done by various organisations. But these are isolated cases. what is slowing down the impact of open source in e-governance especially, is the lack of coordination and sharing of knowledge. Its ironic actually. to some extent there is coordiantion, but then why arent successful projects shared or talked about in forums like this one? will someone from Pune LUG tell us what they have done for e-governance? Likewise will someone from Bangalore LUG share their knowledge with Delhi LUG? I am not implying that there is no sharing at all, there is, however, how many of them are working on e-governance projects? there is nothing to quantify this fact.
Point is that vaious groups tend to go thru the same cycle of planning and working out an e-governance project which can be just cloned and enhanced or modified for customised use.
While Indian developer community is being noticed and praised for its work, there is still a big void of contribution to the public sector. And this is not just my opinion, but the feeling of most leading companies who are continually encouraging student community, and asking for more public sector development.
We would like to know why?
Malovika.
I think we will have to take multiple different approaches with respect to the govt adopting open source. The problem is not that conscientious officers in govt don't understand that open source is better but they are reluctant to act as they are frequently bypassed or interfered in day to day working thru vested interests lobbying the political people. Open source gives the organised civil society an opportunity and a challenge to start becoming an alternative to organised government. Once civil society makes alternative information systems and methods of collaboration for the general populace, the existing govt structure will be forced to start reducing the establishment costs by giving value for money to citizens for govt services (as citizens will start demanding them) thru adoption of cost control technologies such as open source. This is something which has started to happen in Mumbai now specially for the municipal govt. Organised civil society is now taking up the IT component of the municipality (praja.org etc). Their system is not open source fully but by bypassing the govt IT machinery (which is liable to political interference) things have changed. Creation of new bureaucracy has been stalled and existing bureaucracy is being forced to act.
Praja is also working in Bangalore. They are bypassing the formation of new govt structures such as NIC, CDAC etc which till now had a stranglehold on every aspect of egovernance.
Kush
"Things work out best for the people who make the best out of the way things work out."
Malovika, Please use Free Software on this list, or atleast FOSS. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Open
Why ``Free Software'' is better than ``Open Source'' http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html
-Krishna
malovika roy malovika@gmail.com wrote: hi,
we keep hearing about projects like mentioned by Kush below done by various organisations. But these are isolated cases. what is slowing down the impact of open source in e-governance especially, is the lack of coordination and sharing of knowledge. Its ironic actually. to some extent there is coordiantion, but then why arent successful projects shared or talked about in forums like this one? will someone from Pune LUG tell us what they have done for e-governance? Likewise will someone from Bangalore LUG share their knowledge with Delhi LUG? I am not implying that there is no sharing at all, there is, however, how many of them are working on e-governance projects? there is nothing to quantify this fact.
Point is that vaious groups tend to go thru the same cycle of planning and working out an e-governance project which can be just cloned and enhanced or modified for customised use.
While Indian developer community is being noticed and praised for its work, there is still a big void of contribution to the public sector. And this is not just my opinion, but the feeling of most leading companies who are continually encouraging student community, and asking for more public sector development.
We would like to know why?
Malovika.
I think we will have to take multiple different approaches with respect to the govt adopting open source. The problem is not that conscientious officers in govt don't understand that open source is better but they are reluctant to act as they are frequently bypassed or interfered in day to day working thru vested interests lobbying the political people. Open source gives the organised civil society an opportunity and a challenge to start becoming an alternative to organised government. Once civil society makes alternative information systems and methods of collaboration for the general populace, the existing govt structure will be forced to start reducing the establishment costs by giving value for money to citizens for govt services (as citizens will start demanding them) thru adoption of cost control technologies such as open source. This is something which has started to happen in Mumbai now specially for the municipal govt. Organised civil society is now taking up the IT component of the municipality (praja.org etc). Their system is not open source fully but by bypassing the govt IT machinery (which is liable to political interference) things have changed. Creation of new bureaucracy has been stalled and existing bureaucracy is being forced to act.
Praja is also working in Bangalore. They are bypassing the formation of new govt structures such as NIC, CDAC etc which till now had a stranglehold on every aspect of egovernance.
Kush
===================================== To Reflect, to Inspire and to Empower http://www.employees.org/~krishnap/ http://freeknowledge.dyndns.org/
The great moral question of the twenty-first century is: If all knowledge, all culture, all art, all useful information, can be costlessly given to everyone at the same price that it is given to anyone -- if everyone can have everything, everywhere, all the time, why is it ever moral to exclude anyone from anything? -Eben Moglen --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.
On 5/19/06, malovika roy malovika@gmail.com wrote:
we keep hearing about projects like mentioned by Kush below done by various organisations. But these are isolated cases. what is slowing down the impact of open source in e-governance especially, is the lack of coordination and sharing of knowledge. Its ironic actually. to some extent there is coordiantion, but then why arent successful projects shared or talked about in forums like this one? will someone from Pune LUG tell us what they have done for e-governance? Likewise will someone from Bangalore LUG share their knowledge with Delhi LUG?
There have been attempts like the little league
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/little_league/
I am not implying that there is no sharing at all, there is, however, how many of them are working on e-governance projects? there is nothing to quantify this fact.
Point is that vaious groups tend to go thru the same cycle of planning and working out an e-governance project which can be just cloned and enhanced or modified for customised use.
While Indian developer community is being noticed and praised for its work, there is still a big void of contribution to the public sector. And this is not just my opinion, but the feeling of most leading companies who are continually encouraging student community, and asking for more public sector development.
We would like to know why?
Malovika.
Hi Malovika Roy and others,
My thoughts below:
--- malovika roy malovika@gmail.com wrote:
is the lack of coordination and sharing of knowledge.
Lack of know-how on *collaboration*. Its very new to most Indians in India.
Also, people in India seldom market themselves. You really need to address people in radio/television to reach the masses. We _have_ to market free software.
coordiantion, but then why arent successful projects shared or talked about in forums like this one?
Most activities in FSUGs/GLUGs in India, that I have seen are with helping people with installation, software, Internet connectivity, local meets, troubleshooting etc. Creating awareness and helping newbies is the first priority.
there is still a big void of contribution to the public sector.
Even private sector for that matter, how many companies release their software under GPL?
* How many companies allow public e-mail access (google, yahoo and others) 24x7 to its employees to use/access mailing lists? You can use your official e-mail ID provided they don't attach nonsensical legal disclaimers which are against the philosophy of free software.
* How many of them allow FTP/IRC access?
* How many of them sponsore employees to participate in free software events?
Most of the Indian companies in India that I've seen are headed by folks who are from an older generation and were not introduced to FLOSS. Hence, *educating* them on how to work with the community is critical. Or, we have to wait for this generation to come up.
Just my thoughts,
SK
-- Shakthi Kannan http://www.shakthimaan.com
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Hi Malavika and others,
You are right in what you have brought out. There are some other aspects which also need to be taken into account with respect to the various govts' processes. Each govt deptt is a law unto itself--eg x state govt has slightly different laws and working processes than y state govt.
A case in point is land revenue computerisation projects or high courts.
High courts in the country have no standardisation --something i came to know from NIC people --most high courts have their own procedures which are different from the others (even terminology is different, rates and fees are different etc)--so we first need to get a common requirements specification made for the various govt departments. and Standardisation can only happen when there is more sharing of projects information--basically the top level requirements specs. But LUGs are more interested in the coding part of it--whereas the problem is at a higher level of abstraction.
So first we need 1--an education/ongoing debate in how the various systems really work and then [ THIS REALLY NEEDS TO BECOME MAINSTREAM --because without this aspect becoming common knowledge, things won't change in the way society functions) 2-- find the problems in the systems 3 then propose better and integrated standardised solutions (if everybody is willing to accept them, that is) 4 begin coding and demonstration projects for the more enlightened states or deptts 5 keep the historical knowledge from steps1,2,3,4 in the public domain for further improvements and assimilation
Also the LUGs in India are more of informal weak groups--they are not acting as part of a guild which has tentacles into formal companies and which can force the pace of standardisation and change in business, society and govt. Only the idealist people (active members in the forums/LUGs) share knowledge and thoughts/ideas --the rest are keeping mum (waiting to grab ideas). Indians also have a mentality of being uncommunicative rather than collaborative--each is suspicious of the other as if they are in some sort of competition or rat race. They do not understand --"less is more" concept. We need more team spirit which is what is lacking in our collaborative projects. There is very little handholding here --specially for people who are not computer literate or newbies or below the level of the elite geniuses. European, American and South American people are far more collaborative --we haven't got one single major INdian led project (which has majority indian/pakistani/bangladeshi/srilankan contributors).
Maybe if we set a goal--say standardised open source courts software for all courts--starting from the supreme court down to the lowest courts -- I have taken up the courts because they are very critical to the economy and the formation of social capital --more than 3 or 30 crore cases are pending and their non working has a multiplier effect on all sections of society.
Though the supreme court has its own software and is almost computerised, yet an academic exercise of replicating the processes in open source will not threaten the system in any way and yet be a very good demonstrator or alternative when it becomes equal or surpasses the present computer system in terms of quality and other features.
Our main problem is to get funding for such a demonstrator project and this could be arranged from ashoka.org or other funding agencies. The fundamental principle should be --not to take money for a project from the entity itself which is being improved (such as the govt) unless the people in the entity really want to change things and do not use the grant of funds to be used to sway the project implementors. Most of the time govt funded projects cause bitterness,loss of moral values and corruption because the fund releasing deptt itself is corrupt-- people lose their self esteem etc. Even well written contracts cannot be enforced as legal help (though available) has simply not been planned for.
I have also taken the courts--because they affect everybody and opensource is basically about improving social capital. The judicial system affects everybody and it will be the best hi profile demonstrator project in ushering the Indian subcontinent into an era of prosperity thru open source and other ways. Even if the Indian judiciary is not amenable to change towards computerisation, smaller countries like Nepal, Bhutan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh,Maldives etc will be very happy to get a boost in their governance processes and become preferred destinations to attract capital to their beleagured economies (much like Luxembourg, Switzerland etc in Europe)
Kush
malovika roy wrote:
hi,
we keep hearing about projects like mentioned by Kush below done by various organisations. But these are isolated cases. what is slowing down the impact of open source in e-governance especially, is the lack of coordination and sharing of knowledge. Its ironic actually. to some extent there is coordiantion, but then why arent successful projects shared or talked about in forums like this one? will someone from Pune LUG tell us what they have done for e-governance? Likewise will someone from Bangalore LUG share their knowledge with Delhi LUG? I am not implying that there is no sharing at all, there is, however, how many of them are working on e-governance projects? there is nothing to quantify this fact.
Point is that vaious groups tend to go thru the same cycle of planning and working out an e-governance project which can be just cloned and enhanced or modified for customised use.
While Indian developer community is being noticed and praised for its work, there is still a big void of contribution to the public sector. And this is not just my opinion, but the feeling of most leading companies who are continually encouraging student community, and asking for more public sector development.
We would like to know why?
Malovika.
I think we will have to take multiple different approaches with respect to the govt adopting open source. The problem is not that conscientious officers in govt don't understand that open source is better but they are reluctant to act as they are frequently bypassed or interfered in day to day working thru vested interests lobbying the political people. Open source gives the organised civil society an opportunity and a challenge to start becoming an alternative to organised government. Once civil society makes alternative information systems and methods of collaboration for the general populace, the existing govt structure will be forced to start reducing the establishment costs by giving value for money to citizens for govt services (as citizens will start demanding them) thru adoption of cost control technologies such as open source. This is something which has started to happen in Mumbai now specially for the municipal govt. Organised civil society is now taking up the IT component of the municipality (praja.org etc). Their system is not open source fully but by bypassing the govt IT machinery (which is liable to political interference) things have changed. Creation of new bureaucracy has been stalled and existing bureaucracy is being forced to act.
Praja is also working in Bangalore. They are bypassing the formation of new govt structures such as NIC, CDAC etc which till now had a stranglehold on every aspect of egovernance.
Kush
"Things work out best for the people who make the best out of the way things work out."
Fsf-friends mailing list Fsf-friends@mm.gnu.org.in http://mm.gnu.org.in/mailman/listinfo/fsf-friends
but then why arent successful projects shared or talked about in forums like this one?
I think, we need to develop one single mega site (preferably wiki based etc) for pooling all our talk/ideas of all our LUGs and sharing of successful,unsuccessful projects experiences for the time being. Later on (after an year or two), there will be differences of opinion and groups may make other sites for the same purpose or as offshoots of this major portal which is inevitable and also a good thing --the more the merrier.
There will need to be some solid editing/copy writing, website reviewing/rating etc since most of us are nerds and we need the strengths of others who are less technical minded etc. A case in point is the way the Ubuntu project has people from different backgrounds --eg Mathew East collaborates on the project by coordinating for the localisation team even though his speciality is that of a lawyer and that too across 2 or 3 countries (Italian, English and French).
I feel we hardly know each others strengths even in our own smaller groups and most nerds feel safer with people of similar types. But our real challenge is to be salesmen sometimes and increase our ability to appreciate others and convince them to hear us (by first improving our ability to listen to them). A big problem in adoption of open source is, I feel with our inability to get thru to teachers and the retired people and specially the poorer middle class. The critical mass is not happenning with respect to seeing open source as a prestigious way of making money. Open source projects are not talked about in the business magazines as something which a group of 15 year olds or 25 year old whizkids have accomplished and made money on or helped the business in any cost effective way. This is unlike the impetus given by the media in the US to whizkid stories at the start of the PC phenomena in the 70s or 80s.
Kush
On Fri, May 19, 2006 at 09:27:42AM -0400, Kush wrote:
Hi Malavika and others,
So first we need 1--an education/ongoing debate in how the various systems really work and then [ THIS REALLY NEEDS TO BECOME MAINSTREAM
Things are simple and easy if the government and other organistions insists on THE FOUR FREEDOMS, for computer softwares they use. Functionality is secondary, can be improved/modified as and when required.
With regards
M.Balakrishna Pillai
-
Krishna Pagadala -
Kush -
Laxminarayan Kamath -
M.Balakrishna Pillai -
malovika roy -
Shakthi Kannan