Hello guys, Well, we all know that there are ilugs/iglugs throughout the country. We can start FSUGS(Free Software User Group) in the main cities and invite people to join.
They can run parallelly along with the ILUGS/IGLUGS. Many people in the ILUGS don't believe in Free Software philosophy. Thus establishing FSUG in different cities will help us to create user groups supporting free software including GNU/Linux, BSD etc.
The coordinators of the mailing lists will be people from FSF=INDIA. That way we can set policies.
I think this will also help in strengthening FSF-INDIA and also in spreading FREEDOM MATTERS.
We can give URLS to them, like www.fsf.org.in/fsug/cal etc. This will enable us to create country wide user groups under our control.
I know that we already have a few FSUGs in the country, like in Chennai. We can invite them to join us.
Waiting for comments and suggestions.
Regards Arko
Arko Provo Mukherjee writes:
They can run parallelly along with the ILUGS/IGLUGS. Many people in the ILUGS don't believe in Free Software philosophy. Thus establishing FSUG in different cities will help us to create user groups supporting free software including GNU/Linux, BSD etc.
wonderful idea to bring all the FSUGs into one roof. But wasn't that the intended idea initially?
I know that we already have a few FSUGs in the country, like in Chennai. We can invite them to join us.
the FSUG in Chennai, now, mainly exists (rather few know that it does exists) just to help the Demo@Schools program. There is no active role played by FSUG-Chennai right now. But it will be very good for the sake of all freedom lovers in Chennai to have a full-fledged FSUG. A few volunteers from Demo@Schools are working on the FSUG site and it should be up soon (as in weeks given that they are all working part-time on this amidst their tight curricular schedules).
we would be very glad to join this effort.
-Suraj
Hello,
When we find the governments of different states and of India support prop. software, or find a magazine calling it Linux and not GNU/Linux, we can shout against it in this list, but can really do almost nothing. That is because we are still not a formidable group having only a few members. So first FSF-INDIA need to establish roots all over the country and strengthen itself. Forming FSUG will do just that. It will create state wise groups supporting FREE SOFTWARE MOVEMENT and can address specific issues concerning that city or state. They can arrange meetings, which is almost impossible in this list as it is an all India list. This list can simply back up the FSUGs by giving them support, like giving web-space etc.
That is why I suggest this. This group hasn't done anything specific yet.
If we can achieve it, and collect a few members in important cities, we will be on our way to establish FSF-INDIA firmly.
Regards Arko
They can arrange meetings, which is almost impossible in this list as it is an all India list. This list can simply back up the FSUGs by giving them support, like giving web-space etc.
That is why I suggest this. This group hasn't done anything specific yet.
If we can achieve it, and collect a few members in important cities, we will be on our way to establish FSF-INDIA firmly.
FSF india welcomes local activists groups from differn places. FSUG-Chennai/Demo@School project was the first to join with FSF India.
Arun.
When we find the governments of different states and of India support prop. software, or find a magazine calling it Linux and not GNU/Linux, we can shout against it in this list, but can really do almost nothing.
What we usually do is present people with the reasons and try to persuade them. Any shouting is normally done by people on the other side.
We don't need numbers to present the arguments any one person; one of us can do that. We could use numbers for two things:
* To use the term GNU/Linux publicly, so that people will get used to it.
* To be able to raise the issue easily to many people.
So first FSF-INDIA need to establish roots all over the country and strengthen itself. Forming FSUG will do just that.
Local user groups and action groups are a very useful way to promote the movement.
Dear Old RMS said:
What we usually do is present people with the reasons and try to persuade them. Any shouting is normally done by people on the other side.
We don't need numbers to present the arguments any one person; one of us can do that. We could use numbers for two things:
To use the term GNU/Linux publicly, so that people will get used to it.
To be able to raise the issue easily to many people.
We need to strengthen FSF-INDIA more and that will need active and official support of many people. If we are against some Gov. policy, and if we approach the Gov. about that, then the number of people in the group will matter a lot. Very few people in India know about FSF. They know about Linux but not about GNU/Linux or FSF. So I think that numbers are important. Hence have a chain of User Groups under FSF.
Regards Arko
It is useful to start FSUGs, whose activities could include users of the free *BSD systems as well as the variants of GNU. It is also useful to start GNU/Linux User Groups.
Right now the LUGs teach people to think of the system as "Linux" and teach them to think its sole purpose is its own success. (For example, ILUG-Delhu voted to endorse the non-free program KalCulate.) LUGs capture the energy that comes from enthusiasm for the system, and focus it in a direction that doesn't support liberty or GNU. We need GNU/Linux groups in order to direct some of this energy in a better direction.
On Thu, Apr 10, 2003 at 06:47:54PM -0400, Richard Stallman wrote:
We need GNU/Linux groups in order to direct some of this energy in a better direction.
Exactly for this reason, even after forming FSUG-Kochi, I still subscribe to ilug-kochi mailing list.
If we leave the LUGs, many newcomers will be misguided.
Regards
Richard Stallman writes:
Right now the LUGs teach people to think of the system as "Linux" and teach them to think its sole purpose is its own success. (For example, ILUG-Delhu voted to endorse the non-free program KalCulate.) LUGs capture the energy that comes from enthusiasm for
similar to ILUG-Delhi, ILUG-Chennai has been running on a high "enthusiasm-fever" and has been supporting users to run non-free software like Oracle and Opera under "Linux" and has also been supporting other non-free Unices like Solaris and such. The main misconception being, most think anything UNIX is "cool" and anything non-UNIX is non-cool (and, free Vs non-free does not sell much in there).
In a recent debate ILUG-Chennai has openly agreed that it would support _any_ software that runs under "Linux" hence making it a "software user group" and _not_ a free software user group. When I had been a sinning[*] webmaster of this group ILUGC-Chennai made a decision that it would claim that it supports free software that runs under GNU/Linux and other free operating systems. While this claim can still be seen on its website, the group does not do what it says. Nor does it say what it does. and people who come out looking for free software (not necessarily only free as in freedom but also free as in gratis) get confused by the endless enthusiasm about "Linux" that they see in this list.
-Suraj
[*] Oh prophet, this was before your lotus feet touched Chennai soil and made the "other MIT"[**] a holy-shrine (yes, really... i tell students "look, thats the hall where rms spoke"). Having been the webmaster of a 'software users group' that does not care about the importance of free software, I understand I _am_ a sinner by large, now. and I hope the prophet's grace would shower and wash my sins away... and oh prophet, what is my penance? I'm already not using vi!
[**] RMS refers to Madras Institute of Technology as the "other MIT" in his speech.
similar to ILUG-Delhi, ILUG-Chennai has been running on a high "enthusiasm-fever" and has been supporting users to run non-free software like Oracle and Opera under "Linux" and has also been supporting other non-free Unices like Solaris and such. The main misconception being, most think anything UNIX is "cool" and anything non-UNIX is non-cool (and, free Vs non-free does not sell much in there).
This is what tends to happen with Linux User Groups, and there are systematic reasons for the tendency.
There is no necessary logical connection between the group's choice of values and the name it calls the system. It is certainly possible to call the system "Linux" and believe as strongly in freedom as any of us do. But the values usually associated with the name "Linux" don't give priority to freedom, and people who hear, think, and talk about "Linux" tend to pick up those values. Any group that uses the name "Linux" will have to make strenuous efforts not to be carried away by this tendency.
(Even if the group uses the name "GNU/Linux", it will still require an effort to resist the tendency. But mentioning GNU will help.)
[*] Oh prophet, this was before your lotus feet touched Chennai soil and made the "other MIT"[**] a holy-shrine (yes, really... i tell students "look, thats the hall where rms spoke").
I hope that these words are meant as satire. To seriously think such a thing (about anyone) is dangerous for your mental equilibrium, and if it happens in sufficient quantity, threatening for mine as well.
On Fri, 2003-04-11 at 04:17, Richard Stallman wrote:
It is useful to start FSUGs, whose activities could include users of the free *BSD systems as well as the variants of GNU. It is also useful to start GNU/Linux User Groups.
So what do you guys suggest?
Should we or should we not go ahead in forming FSUGs around the country?
GNU/Linux user groups can still become places where people will support programs running on GNU/Linux whether it is FREE or PROP. It can also leave out BSD Systems.
FSUG can be places to support FREE SOFTWARE, be it GNU/LINUX or BSD.
But either iGLUG or FSUG must be formed to counter ILUGS in the country.
Regards Arko
On Fri, Apr 11, 2003 at 10:53:01AM +0530, Arko Provo Mukherjee wrote:
On Fri, 2003-04-11 at 04:17, Richard Stallman wrote:
It is useful to start FSUGs, whose activities could include users of the free *BSD systems as well as the variants of GNU. It is also useful to start GNU/Linux User Groups.
So what do you guys suggest?
Should we or should we not go ahead in forming FSUGs around the country?
GNU/Linux user groups can still become places where people will support programs running on GNU/Linux whether it is FREE or PROP. It can also leave out BSD Systems.
FSUG can be places to support FREE SOFTWARE, be it GNU/LINUX or BSD.
But either iGLUG or FSUG must be formed to counter ILUGS in the country.
In places like Delhi, Bangalore and Chennai where the LUGs have taken explicit positions not to actively promote free software (they wish to do it incidentally because they mainly cater to the business interests) it is important to have FSUGs. However in some places where promoting free software has been the main objective, which gets reflected by the way the user groups are shaped and formed then one may continue with GLUGS. In Mumbai e.g., we can do with GLUG (one of the oldest GLUGS in the country) unless there is a serious differnece of opinion.
Nagarjuna
In places like Delhi, Bangalore and Chennai where the LUGs have taken explicit positions not to actively promote free software (they wish to do it incidentally because they mainly cater to the business interests) it is important to have FSUGs. However in some places where promoting free software has been the main objective, which gets reflected by the way the user groups are shaped and formed then one may continue with GLUGS. In Mumbai e.g., we can do with GLUG (one of the oldest GLUGS in the country) unless there is a serious differnece of opinion.
Nagarjuna
Are we then going to do form groups?
We are not going against GLUG if we form FSUG. We can go hand in hand with them. If it is FSF, it should be FSUG.
Moreover having FSUG in some places and GLUGS in some other places doesn't bring the user groups under one roof. So the first question to be answered is whether we want to create a set of User Groups directly under FSF which can run parallel to the existing LUG/GLUGs in the country.
Regards Arko
Are we then going to do form groups?
We are not going against GLUG if we form FSUG. We can go hand in hand with them. If it is FSF, it should be FSUG.
As pointed out what we need is local activists groups. They can be GLUG, FSUG what ever. Aslong as they are willing to follow the policy of FSF India. Its better to start working.
Moreover having FSUG in some places and GLUGS in some other places doesn't bring the user groups under one roof. So the first question to be answered is whether we want to create a set of User Groups directly under FSF which can run parallel to the existing LUG/GLUGs in the country.
If GLUGs are interested in joining FSF then there need not be another group. To many groups wont be ideal.
Arun.
On Fri, Apr 11, 2003 at 04:48:56PM +0530, Arko Provo Mukherjee wrote:
In places like Delhi, Bangalore and Chennai where the LUGs have taken explicit positions not to actively promote free software (they wish to do it incidentally because they mainly cater to the business interests) it is important to have FSUGs. However in some places where promoting free software has been the main objective, which gets reflected by the way the user groups are shaped and formed then one may continue with GLUGS. In Mumbai e.g., we can do with GLUG (one of the oldest GLUGS in the country) unless there is a serious differnece of opinion.
Nagarjuna
Are we then going to do form groups?
We are not going against GLUG if we form FSUG. We can go hand in hand with them. If it is FSF, it should be FSUG.
Moreover having FSUG in some places and GLUGS in some other places doesn't bring the user groups under one roof. So the first question to be answered is whether we want to create a set of User Groups directly under FSF which can run parallel to the existing LUG/GLUGs in the country.
This can be resolved like this: A group, either an FSUG or GLUG will pass a resolution in one of their meetings and announces on their web page that it is affiliated to FSF India and will act as a nodal active group for FSF. Such groups will not encourage the promotion of non-free software under any free operating system, while promoting the use of free software anywhere. Any such explicit promotion in either the meetings or mailing lists will make such a group disqualify being a group under the FSF India banner.
GLUG Mumbai is meeting tomorrow, and this issue will be discussed.
Nagarjuna
On Sat, 2003-04-12 at 09:39, Nagarjuna G. wrote:
This can be resolved like this: A group, either an FSUG or GLUG will pass a resolution in one of their meetings and announces on their web page that it is affiliated to FSF India and will act as a nodal active group for FSF. Such groups will not encourage the promotion of non-free software under any free operating system, while promoting the use of free software anywhere. Any such explicit promotion in either the meetings or mailing lists will make such a group disqualify being a group under the FSF India banner.
GLUG Mumbai is meeting tomorrow, and this issue will be discussed.
Then we need to pin point a group in each city and send an official letter to them requesting them to come under FSF-INDIA. The letter should convey the points they have to follow if they join us.
But there will be places from where no response will come. There we need to form the groups. Do you agree?
Cheers Arko
----- Original Message ----- From: "Arko Provo Mukherjee" arkoprovo@peacefulaction.org To: rms@gnu.org; "fsf-friends" fsf-friends@gnu.org.in Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [Fsf-friends] Re: Forming FSUGs in the country
On Fri, 2003-04-11 at 04:17, Richard Stallman wrote:
It is useful to start FSUGs, whose activities could include users of the free *BSD systems as well as the variants of GNU. It is also useful to start GNU/Linux User Groups.
Arko Spake:
So what do you guys suggest?
Should we or should we not go ahead in forming FSUGs around the country?
GNU/Linux user groups can still become places where people will support programs running on GNU/Linux whether it is FREE or PROP. It can also leave out BSD Systems.
FSUG can be places to support FREE SOFTWARE, be it GNU/LINUX or BSD.
But either iGLUG or FSUG must be formed to counter ILUGS in the country.
More groups to get the message clear? Maybe we should try thinking from the user's POV here. It will be more confusion.
Even I think it will be better to form a central GNU/Linux group and have local flavours. But we must give the people out there an option to align to our policies and principles rather than simply fork().
I trying to look at a model that amplifies the common interests in the community at large while being aligned with our principles. We wouldn't want duplication of efforts and thinning of members. And if we ever do scout for members... we should be looking at colleges and students. Whoever said "catch them young" wasn't wrong at all :)
Regards,
Amol Hatwar.
Should we or should we not go ahead in forming FSUGs around the country?
Please go ahead forming FSUGs and GLUGs all around India and elsewhere.
-
Amol Hatwar -
Arko Provo Mukherjee -
Arun M -
Dileep M. Kumar -
Nagarjuna G. -
Richard Stallman -
Suraj Kumar