I am amazed at this kind of mails. Is this the way to promote Open source? Is CDAC Mumbai (ex-NCST) the only place with Windows machines? How long has NCST been around? How long has it been since Linux machines got to be comparable in user friendliness? How much of industry is using Linux even today? Does the guy posting know why we use the particular setup for work? It has nothing to do with his "smart" observation.
Bashing some institution is not the way to promote Open source.
- Sasi
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:07:13 +0530 From: Anurag anurag@hbcse.tifr.res.in To: fsf-friends@gnu.org.in Subject: Re: [Fsf-friends] [Fwd: Proforma for membership records]
V. Sasi Kumar wrote:
Indian Institute of Science asks alumni to fill up their details in
a>document in MS Word format. This is a mail I sent them more than two
weeks back. No response as yet.
For that matter, I'd like to point out the infrastructure that is available at C-DAC Mumbai (formely NCST). They have something like 75 computers with Windows 2000 installed. Now the irony is that, for writing programs and compiling them, students are supposed to connect to a GNU/Linux server using a proprietary SSH client and write/compile programs there... This is called higher education!
-Anurag
Dear Shri M. Sasikumar,
M Sasikumar wrote:
I am amazed at this kind of mails.
I am surprised that you have taken time to reply. Thanks.
Is this the way to promote Open source?
Please avoid using the expression "Open Source" because it cannot help to distinguish between free software and non-free software intelligibly without elaborate definitions. "Free Software" is the correct expression to use and promote.
Please help us to promote Free Software more widely. Could the CDAC publish a list of Free Software used by the organisation? Since promotion of education is one of the objectives of CDAC, could the CDAC make available the source code of Free Software programs that have been tried and tested at CDAC? What are the free and open standards that are used by CDAC?
Is CDAC Mumbai (ex-NCST) the only place with Windows machines? > How
long has NCST been around? How long has it been since Linux
machines got to be comparable in user friendliness? How much of industry is using Linux even today?
Private individuals and entities may choose to waste valuable resources for no particular reason or merely out of ignorance. I am sure the "industry" is not the example to be followed. Please take examples from Universities and other more responsible institutions around the world that have taken an active role in making the free software movement possible. Even if the "industry" is slow or incapable of understanding the merits of Free Software, it cannot give excuses to public bodies to follow the mistakes of others.
The so called user friendliness promoted by proprietary software often do not make any sense. Could you please list the features that you consider as "user friendly"? Many free software programs aim at the highest automation possible without unnecessary interference or interruption during execution.
Does the guy posting know why we use the particular > setup for work? It
has nothing to do with his "smart" observation.
Please give the reasons. I do hope that some research to provide interoperability between operating systems is the reason.
Bashing some institution is not the way to promote Open source.
Free software has evolved by staying focused on issues, and sticking to those traditions should help everyone :)
Thanks and Regards, Ramanraj.
Hi,
I understand the values of free software, open source and the so-called proprietary software. But I am not one to take a religious stand on these. If these are what we claim these are, then they are capable of finding their own defense. They do not need to be pushed down someone's throat, least of all, by general bashing and cribbing.
We must understand that the growth in IT industry and the vast number of applications we see today are to a large part due to the so called proprietary software and the associated companies. Even the growth of good desktop environments on Linux came out of the need to counter Windows. Today, it is easy for someone to stand up and say "goto hell" to commercial institutions "selling" software. Remember that everything has its own place. Let us also not forget that FOSS movement itself caught on its momentum largely after big "commercial" industries started supporting it. It does not take a lot of research to figure out why they are doing this.
I am all for supporting FOSS and encouraging it. We are doing it on our own way. But having some Windows machine in the premises is not a sin. Teaching Windows to students is also not a sin. The students we teach are meant for the industry out there. So we cannot separate education completely from industry. I agree, we need a balance. We are doing that. As the world changes, we will also change. In some cases we change before the world - but we cant be too ahead of the world, particularly when it comes to education and industry interaction.
Thank you for your time.
- Sasi
On Thu, 2004-09-23 at 08:39, Ramanraj K wrote:
Dear Shri M. Sasikumar,
M Sasikumar wrote:
I am amazed at this kind of mails.
I am surprised that you have taken time to reply. Thanks.
M Sasikumar wrote:
I understand the values of free software, open source and the so-called proprietary software. But I am not one to take a religious stand on these. If these are what we claim these are, then they are capable of finding their own defense. They do not need to be pushed down someone's throat, least of all, by general bashing and cribbing.
The fsf-friends mailing list exists to promote Free Software, and I guess most of us here have volunteered to contribute, without wasting time on needless prattle. It is rather strange that many are willing to swallow non-free software down their throats but raise objections to savouring free software freedom :)
Complaints, even if dubbed as bashing or cringing, help to remedy the malaise before more harm or damage is done. A majority assume that someone somewhere would be attending to these issues, but as it often turns out, none may be paying attention. Thank you very much for paying attention and I hope this interaction can help to bring in changes that may be of use to one and all.
We must understand that the growth in IT industry and the vast
number of
applications we see today are to a large part due to the so called proprietary software and the associated companies. Even the growth of good desktop environments on Linux came out of the need to counter Windows. Today, it is easy for someone to stand up and say "goto hell" to commercial institutions "selling" software. Remember that everything has its own place. Let us also not forget that FOSS movement itself caught on its momentum largely after big "commercial" industries started supporting it. It does not take a
lot of
research to figure out why they are doing this.
Many books like "Free For All" narrate the history of free software interestingly and give a clear picture about the co-operation between various institutions and entities. Negative pressure from certain commercial entities have helped to strengthen the resolve.
When I opted to use a computer for work, I dumped the manual typerwriter that I had been using for more than 10 years with a heavy heart, because it never let me down even once during its life time. The manual typewriter probably got recycled into a printer and got a fresh lease of life. Migrating to free software is probably more easy than anything else. Getting rid of non-free software that frequently crash, fail, invite virus, almost impossible to fix because the source code is a secret, apart from costing a fortune, should be fairly easy to forget as a terrible nightmare. Don't worry about the proprietary companies: they will quickly change their ways and learn to live life in the new environment.
BTW, the X Server was designed to be used in a networked environment, with a client/server model in mind in 1980's, before MS Windows came. The concepts behind X Server are original and not found in other other operating systems. It is the X Server concept that makes possible several very different desktop environments - like KDE, gnome, failsafe, fvwm2, icewm, mwm, olwm, twm, DyDe, Enlightenment and others, with each environment having their own wide range of themes. This is an innovative idea that makes a lot of sense, giving flexibility and usability to support a wide range of users and uses. Therefore, trite comments about Gnu/Linux desktops are only amusing.
Free software gives users of computers maximum freedom in using, copying, studying, sharing and improving software. All other considerations are extraneous, and not really germane here. Many proprietary companies have wisely supported these ideas, not only in their own interest, but also understanding the efficiency and productivity that could be achieved by using these principles and philosophy. Many proprietary companies have found niches to earn profits without taking away the computing freedoms of users.
RMS founded and led the free software movement, struggling for more than 20 years now, and your, "Today, it is easy for someone to stand up and say 'goto hell'", is a true complement for the success of the movement. We certainly can do without non-free software or those who insist upon imposing artificial restrictions to undermine computers.
I am all for supporting FOSS and encouraging it. We are doing it on our own way. But having some Windows machine in the premises is not a sin. Teaching Windows to students is also not a sin. The students we teach are meant for the industry out there. So we cannot separate education completely from industry. I agree, we need a balance. We are doing
that.
As the world changes, we will also change. In some cases we change before the world - but we cant be too ahead of the world, particularly when it comes to education and industry interaction.
When free software based on open standards is available, it does become meaningless to teach non-free software based on secrecy with no clues about how the software works or functions. It is unscientific to rely upon such tools for general use. Migration from non-free software to free software is much desirable. Please frame courses that would encourage migration from using non-free to free software. If such courses are already offered, please give wide publicity to such programs.
When austerity measures are called for every now and then, spending public funds on non-free software ignoring availability of free software could only be seen as sinful by right thinking people. As it has been point out here, even very rich and affluent nations like the US have framed strict guidelines asking public authorities to use free software, and I hope atleast some of the higher institutions spearheading development and training efforts here have the vision to take the right steps forward.
-
M Sasikumar -
Ramanraj K