2009/11/23 jaykumar hs jaykumarhs@gmail.com:

But the word "Swatantra" doesnot give scope for such ambiguity. "Swatantra" symbolizes the freedom and have not come across any other such popular word in kannada to mean "Freedom".

It is my humble request to use the word "Swatantra" for "Freedom" in kannada.

+1

ರೇಣುಕ,

ಸ್ವತಂತ್ರ ಅಂದ್ರೆ ಸ್ವಾತಂತ್ರ್ಯ ನೀಡುವ ಎಂದಾಗುತ್ತೆ. ಫ್ರೀ ಸಾಫ್ಟ್ವೇರ್ ಕೊನೆಗೆ ಅದೇ ಅಲ್ವ? ಇಂಗ್ಲೀಷಿನಲ್ಲಿ ಫ್ರೀ (ಸ್ವಾತಂತ್ರ್ಯ) ಮತ್ತು ಫ್ರೀ (ಉಚಿತ) ನಡುವೆ ಇರೋ ಗೊಂದಲ ಕನ್ನಡದಲ್ಲಿಲ್ಲ! ನಮಗೆ ಅದಕ್ಕೆಂದೇ ಒಂದು ಪದ ಉಂಟಲ್ಲ. :-)

ಮುಕ್ತ ಅಂದರೆ ಮುಕ್ತವಾದದ್ದು ಅಥವ ಓಪನ್ ಸೌರ್ಸ್ ಎಂದು ಮಾತ್ರ ಆಗುತ್ತದೆ. ಸ್ವತಂತ್ರ ಎಂದರೆ ಅದನ್ನು ಬದಲಾಯಿಸುವ ಸ್ವಾತ್ರಂತ್ರ್ಯ ಕೂಡ ಸಿಕ್ಕಂತೆ.

- ಹರಿ ಪ್ರಸಾದ್ ನಾಡಿಗ್

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:45 PM, renuka prasad renukaprasadb@gmail.com wrote:

in brief could you all explain your point of thinking about using word swatantra for freedom in kannada

...

2009/11/23 renuka prasad renukaprasadb@gmail.com

2009/11/23 Hari Prasad Nadig hpnadig@gmail.com

ರೇಣುಕ,

...

ಸ್ವತಂತ್ರ ಅಂದ್ರೆ ಸ್ವಾತಂತ್ರ್ಯ ನೀಡುವ ಎಂದಾಗುತ್ತೆ. ಫ್ರೀ ಸಾಫ್ಟ್ವೇರ್ ಕೊನೆಗೆ ಅದೇ ಅಲ್ವ? ಇಂಗ್ಲೀಷಿನಲ್ಲಿ ಫ್ರೀ (ಸ್ವಾತಂತ್ರ್ಯ) ಮತ್ತು ಫ್ರೀ (ಉಚಿತ) ನಡುವೆ ಇರೋ ಗೊಂದಲ ಕನ್ನಡದಲ್ಲಿಲ್ಲ! ನಮಗೆ ಅದಕ್ಕೆಂದೇ ಒಂದು ಪದ ಉಂಟಲ್ಲ. :-)

ಮುಕ್ತ ಅಂದರೆ ಮುಕ್ತವಾದದ್ದು ಅಥವ ಓಪನ್ ಸೌರ್ಸ್ ಎಂದು ಮಾತ್ರ ಆಗುತ್ತದೆ. ಸ್ವತಂತ್ರ ಎಂದರೆ ಅದನ್ನು ಬದಲಾಯಿಸುವ ಸ್ವಾತ್ರಂತ್ರ್ಯ ಕೂಡ ಸಿಕ್ಕಂತೆ.

how about translating these sentences ?

India is free India got freedom India is Independent India has Independent Laws Indian society is a free society

Software is Free Software gives Freedom

Citizens are Free Citizens are having Freedom

Company gives freedom with thier product Companies product is free

When it tried to translate what happened was we got many contexts and another problem is that we feel something and to express that, sometimes we may not get exact words so we use words with contexts

then what is the basic problem with the translation what i felt is that we will not think in one language and write in one language , when we start thinking in different languages and write in different languages we mix up the things because of which we listen sentences and use sentences by mixing both the languages like the radio jockeys do .. resulting in a bit confused translations

so may be what we feel will be write and when i say that Free Software i will be knowing the context and many would be knowing the context that i am talking so i would use "ಮುಕ್ತ ತಂತ್ರಾಂಶ " to say "free software "

also i have no problem using in the following way "ಮುಕ್ತ / ಸ್ವತಂತ್ರ ತಂತ್ರಾಂಶ " to say "free software " and those who feel that the word ಸ್ವತಂತ್ರ could read that and those who want the other one ಮುಕ್ತ will also be happy

but i am not yet convinced to to not to use the word ಮುಕ್ತ anyways we will usually use many words while advocating about free software

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:29 PM, jaykumar hs jaykumarhs@gmail.com wrote:

*On Kannada translations:* In any language, there are many synonyms for any word. But, while doing translations into any other language, important aspect that needs to be kept in mind are: Usage of words in Literary and Colloquial world in that particular language to which translation to be done. one should select a word which easily conveys the intended meaning.

this rule could be applied for kanglissh ( mix of kannada and english ) is what i feel

*Example 1:* India is an independent country i,e She has got independence.

ಇಲ್ಲಿ ಇಂಗ್ಲಿಷೀನ ಫ್ರೀಡಂ ಎನ್ನುವುದು ಇಂಡಿಪೆಂಡೆನ್ಸ್ ಪದಕ್ಕೆ ಸಮಾನಾರ್ಥಕ ಪದ.

ಆದ್ದರಿಂದ ನಾವು ಸ್ವಾತಂತ್ರ್ಯ ದಿನವನ್ನು 'Independence day' ಎಂದು ಕರೆಯುತ್ತೇವೆ. The word 'Independent' is originated from 'Independence'. It is a matter of understanding Noun, Verb and Adjective of a word.

this is the problem what i too see many times .. analysing in mother tounge and writing in some other language makes to think so

*Translation into kannada:*

1. Popular and good translation: ಭಾರತ ಒಂದು ಸ್ವತಂತ್ರ ದೇಶ. (ಅಂದರೆ, ಭಾರತ

ಸ್ವಾತಂತ್ರ್ಯ ಹೊಂದಿದೆ. ) ಭಾರತವು ಸ್ವಾತಂತ್ರ್ಯವನ್ನು ಪಡೆದಿರುವುದರಿಂದಲೇ ಅದು 'ಸ್ವತಂತ್ರ' ದೇಶ. ಸ್ವಾತಂತ್ರ್ಯ= ಸ್ವತಂತ್ರ

ಈ ಪದಗಳ ತತ್ಸಮ ಮತ್ತು ತದ್ಭವ ನೋಡಿರಿ. ೨) Wrong Translation : ಭಾರತ ಒಂದು 'ಮುಕ್ತ' ದೇಶ. (ಅಂದರೆ, ಭಾರತ 'ಮುಕ್ತ' ವನ್ನು ಹೊಂದಿದೆ. )

this is your own interpretation, and ofcoure many others might be doing

*Some more examples:*

1. 'Independent Karnataka' is translated as: swatantra karnataka (i,e

Karnataka which has got freedom and hence independent)) 2) 'Independent India' is translated as : swatantra Bharatha (ie, Bharath which has got freedom and hence independent) 3) We never call 'mukta bharatha' but we call 'swatantra bharatha'. Hence why do you call 'mukta tantraamsha'?

The translation of the word 'Independence' (i,e freedom) into kannada as 'swatantra' is so much penetrated into the minds of the people and kannada literary world that 'Swatantra' (Freedom) doesnot give any ambiguity.

please give references

Even when some one is a dedicated free software activist, he/she would stand on the wrong side of the history when they fail to understand where his/her contribution is actually heading towards.

As a result of this, one should not forget the basic fact that Usage of 'Mukta' would surely mislead the common man in Karnataka.

i am still open to use the word "ಸತಂತ್ರ" but not just that word ( may be like "ಸತಂತ್ರ/ ಮುಕ್ತ" as i could not get a convincing answers , what is see here is more of those answer from a translator who would mix up thoughts which are coming from different languages . when we think in one language and write in one language while taking meanigs from the previous references this may not happen---

till i get a convincing answer i would continue to use "ಮುಕ್ತ" or "ಸತಂತ್ರ/ ಮುಕ್ತ" rather than just "ಸತಂತ್ರ"

Regards Jaykumar

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 9:36 AM, renuka prasad renukaprasadb@gmail.comwrote:

...

2009/11/23 renuka prasad renukaprasadb@gmail.com

...

2009/11/23 Hari Prasad Nadig hpnadig@gmail.com

ರೇಣುಕ,

...

ಸ್ವತಂತ್ರ ಅಂದ್ರೆ ಸ್ವಾತಂತ್ರ್ಯ ನೀಡುವ ಎಂದಾಗುತ್ತೆ. ಫ್ರೀ ಸಾಫ್ಟ್ವೇರ್ ಕೊನೆಗೆ ಅದೇ ಅಲ್ವ? ಇಂಗ್ಲೀಷಿನಲ್ಲಿ ಫ್ರೀ (ಸ್ವಾತಂತ್ರ್ಯ) ಮತ್ತು ಫ್ರೀ (ಉಚಿತ) ನಡುವೆ ಇರೋ ಗೊಂದಲ ಕನ್ನಡದಲ್ಲಿಲ್ಲ! ನಮಗೆ ಅದಕ್ಕೆಂದೇ ಒಂದು ಪದ ಉಂಟಲ್ಲ. :-)

ಮುಕ್ತ ಅಂದರೆ ಮುಕ್ತವಾದದ್ದು ಅಥವ ಓಪನ್ ಸೌರ್ಸ್ ಎಂದು ಮಾತ್ರ ಆಗುತ್ತದೆ. ಸ್ವತಂತ್ರ ಎಂದರೆ ಅದನ್ನು ಬದಲಾಯಿಸುವ ಸ್ವಾತ್ರಂತ್ರ್ಯ ಕೂಡ ಸಿಕ್ಕಂತೆ.

how about translating these sentences ?

India is free India got freedom India is Independent India has Independent Laws Indian society is a free society

Software is Free Software gives Freedom

Citizens are Free Citizens are having Freedom

Company gives freedom with thier product Companies product is free

When it tried to translate what happened was we got many contexts and another problem is that we feel something and to express that, sometimes we may not get exact words so we use words with contexts

then what is the basic problem with the translation what i felt is that we will not think in one language and write in one language , when we start thinking in different languages and write in different languages we mix up the things because of which we listen sentences and use sentences by mixing both the languages like the radio jockeys do .. resulting in a bit confused translations

so may be what we feel will be write and when i say that Free Software i will be knowing the context and many would be knowing the context that i am talking so i would use "ಮುಕ್ತ ತಂತ್ರಾಂಶ " to say "free software "

also i have no problem using in the following way "ಮುಕ್ತ / ಸ್ವತಂತ್ರ ತಂತ್ರಾಂಶ " to say "free software " and those who feel that the word ಸ್ವತಂತ್ರ could read that and those who want the other one ಮುಕ್ತ will also be happy

but i am not yet convinced to to not to use the word ಮುಕ್ತ anyways we will usually use many words while advocating about free software

---

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---

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On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 3:57 PM, jaykumar hs jaykumarhs@gmail.com wrote:

It is really a good work, though translation needs some correction.

But I beg to differ with one term.

In Kannada we should use the word "Swatantra tantraamsha" to mean "Free Software". In the present translated work, another kannada word "Mukta" has been used in place of "Swatantra". In Kannada, Mukta conveys two meanings based on the context we use:

1. Open and 2) Freedom.

Hence usage of this word lands us into trap to mean both Open software and Free Software. Open Source Industry surely seeks such ambiguity to further the confusion among common folks of kannada language.

But the word "Swatantra" doesnot give scope for such ambiguity. "Swatantra" symbolizes the freedom and have not come across any other such popular word in kannada to mean "Freedom".

A kannada-english dictinary, by Rev F Kittel, mangalore,basel mission book

and tract depository 1894 says ಮುಕ್ತ - mukta -- s,a Loosened,let loose, unloosed, let loose, set free, quitted; relaxed;-discharged, shed thrown, cast, shot;- abandoned, quitted, left, put off, laid aside; (ended) given up;- released, liberated,emancipated, ( from transmigration,personal existence, requiring freedom, etc ); to be emancipated, requiring freedom ( from worldly existence etc )

ಸ್ವತಂತ್ರ - sva-taNtra : self dependence,self-reliant, independent, free absolute, self-willed,unrestrained,unruly,libertine.. no longer subject to parents, of age. independence, etc.

ಸ್ವಾತಂತ್ರ್ಯ - svaataNtrya : the power of following one's own will, freedom of will, independence free will..

---------------------------------------------------------------

II edition, revised and enlarged by Prof.Christanuja Watsa, chiefly based on the labours of Dr.F.Kittel ( kannada-English Dictionary), by Rev.J Bucher ( Jan, 1923 )

ಸ್ವತಂತ್ರ swatantra -- s,n self-independence; independence,Independent, free;self-willed,unruly

ಸ್ವತಂತ್ರಿಸು - swataMtrisu --s,v,t To take liberty, make oneself free

ಮುಕ್ತ mukta -- s,a Loosened,let loose,set free,quitted; released,liberated,emancipated, discharged as a weapon

ಸ್ವಾತಂತ್ರ್ಯ swaataMtrya --s,n Independence; free will, freedom

--------------------------------------------------------------------

beyond all these, when you refer Mysore university's prasaraanga kannada dictionary , that is english to kannada dictionary, we will not get any definition similar to what the meaning we saw above. that is freedom has the meaning of the kannada word "svaataNtra'' ಸ್ವಾತಂತ್ರ್ಯ not "sva-tantra'' ಸ್ವತಂತ್ರ

then when we look at the "kaanada saahithya parishath dictionary" for kan-kan dictionary then we get the meaning of freedom for swatantra but again this dictionary will give more close meaning to the svaatantrya ಸ್ವಾತಂತ್ರ್ಯ when they talk about 'freedom"

also another dictionary "standard dictionary", d k bharadvaj's (english -english- kannada) has a bit of mixed up meanings or rather i should say that they are interchanigingly used

------------------------------------------------- now coming to the usage of the kannada translated word "open' has a clear meaning that something is opened .

free has the closer meaning to liberated , free from all and then comes to the the meaning "free of cost ' depending upon the context

--------------------------------------------------- some more contexts to mean open university in kannada the word 'mukta' is used to say that university is open , my understanding is that when it was used to say so ,has meant that the university is giving some freedoms or has some less restrictionsI found that here it was not a word to word translation were done

next -- about he usage of the word 'svatantra' and 'svaatantryaa' ( ಸ್ವತಂತ್ರ , ಸ್ವಾತಂತ್ರ್ಯ , is very clear first one is about independent and second one is about independence or freedom but of-course it is true that they are used with interchanged meanings at several contexts by many

--- when we just talk about svatantra -- may be some of your thoughts and many would say that we are having a freedom which is again a context

now when we attach some feelings to certain contexts with the words that the language provides then it is a mere abstraction of the feeling that we actually wanted to talk about.

so depending upon on the context we will be using the word is what you and many of us are feeling

also i spoke to many professional translators like ravindranath, dr yoganada and also dicussed with many lecturers and professors of few universities

majority of them say that we can use either mukta or svatantra ( to talk about freedom (with context only) and when it comes to using the word svatantra it is not very close to freedom by looking at all the references that i went through

even though i used the word swatantra while translating the RMS Selected essays, now i am feeling that both the words could be used interchangingly that is either mukta( ಮುಕ್ತ ) or swatantra (ಸ್ವತಂತ್ರ) and we all know the context that we are talking about

-- if some body has more explanation/references/ comments please send

i would prefer to use "ಮುಕ್ತ ತಂತ್ರಾಂಶ " to say "free software " till i get more proper references that would convince me to use any other words