On Sunday 27 November 2011 22:50:09 Dinesh Shah wrote:
Disclaimer: Long post with lots of in-line reply.
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 8:51 PM, jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
On Sunday 27 November 2011 17:06:57 Dinesh Shah wrote:
On Nov 27, 2011, at 9:33, Binand Sethumadhavan binand@gmail.com wrote:
On 26 November 2011 23:09, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
and I suppose that you also believe that you need to know how to drive in order to get a driving license?
Kill the wrong process not the purpose of it.
This is what we should do. Kill the wrong process, and implement a right one. Not build another process that is equally if not more flawed on top of it and then hope that these two wrong processes will cancel out each other.
Good. Now we should be able to make some headway. Experts here please suggest appropriate solution to this identity problem?
If we can provide an alternative and "correct" solution no one can deny to adopt that one!
Oh. Is the problem defined? Or do we proceed on the brain dead assumption that people dont have identities. Identity is one that I choose to identify myself as.
Agreed. But the identity YOU choose to be identified with should be acceptable to others with whom you would like to transact.
The state has no say in the matter.
What is state? The government? the geographically bounded region of earth? The Constitution? Laws? Customs? Culture? People?
Very well defined: The government.
The problem the state is trying to solve is wholly of it's own invention. Which is to selectively channelise resources to it's choosen ones.
Agreed. Caste/Religion based reservation is shining example of that.
Total rubbish. Caste based reservations is to ameliorate discriminatory conditions caused by society over long periods of our history. There are no religious reservations that I am aware of.
Why does one need a freaking ration card to buy ration when trillions of tons of food lies rotting. Not to mention the cattle quality starvation quantity dished out in he PDS.
Agreed.
Why do I need proof of identity to open a bank account with my money, on which the bank profits.
Will you allow me to open a bank account in your name and do any kind of transactions in that account?
There are innumerable bank accounts that have common names. They are diffrentiated by a account number. So someone opening an account as jtd cant affect my account. And yes he can do any type of transaction in that account because it is his money. When the bank has to give me a loan od etc the bank has to perform due diligence. That there are various vicarious caveats like foreign exchange imposed with wholly ulterior motives by the state is a different matter and has nothing at all to do with identity.
Why does a small borrower need hundreds of docs to borrow from a bank, when trillions of Rs. of loans to sakhar karkhanas are written off?
Precisely. You literally need tons of paper to get any thing done in this country.
You read half the line. You dont need tons of paper to get your loans written off if you are a politico. And 2 tons of paper wont writeoff a penny if you arent a politico. Everything to do with a certain type of identity, but definetly not the sort you think.
Why do I need proof of identity to enter a death trap known as public health service, as though the government was conferring luxury services.
Without this how will you recover your health insurance money? you have a health insurance right? :-)
Health insurance in KEM hospital? which universe are you living in? Public health service is free.
Why do I need proof to buy a freakin cell phone connection. OH oh Security.
So is it OK to buy a cell phone in your name make obscene calls to these cute girls in my neighbourhood? :-)
Please spare me cheapskate statements that has no basis in facts and figures. Those calls will be a number to the 10th decimal place. And follows the exact same flawed logic of jailing everyone because of a few madcaps.
Never mind that bombs go off as and when the bombers please and the cops get rapped in court for fake encounters.
Agreed.
Talk of manufacturing solutions to non existent problems. Cart, horse etc.
???
Just get off this nonsense of people not having identity. The state wants to target selectively groups it may wish to confer benefits on or supress. Hence this manufactured need.
That already exist in the form of caste and religion based reservation system so why complain against UID?
Rubbish. Read my earlier statement.
At least they are not saying they will only issue ID to select people of select caste and/or religion or economic groups.
WOW. what a wonderfully gutter level bench mark.
The so called leakages stem from the fact that the qualification criteria for PDS, health and other entitlements are pegged so low that huge swathes of our people who should be actually entitled to these services are denied that.
Agreed.
Not because they dont have identity,
Well?
but because the state chooses to play a cynical vote / power channelling game.
Agreed.
The ones who can "afford" better services already avail of them by paying top dollars. The utterly inhumane Rs.32/- per day per person is a case in point.
Indeed. This is most ridiculous thing to do.
It angers me no end that the richest professionals in the country along with the government are riding on the backs of the poor, without the slightest thought to the above mentioned reasons.
Are you referring to UAIDA or all other professionals?
The UIDAI and their supporters who think that a dog tag number is a fine identity tool.
Foisting a wholly artificial and manufactured "identity crisis", and plastering onto that all sorts of panaceas for corruption, poverty elevation, rural employment, banking etc.
That is the mis-sell on part of the Govt. and UAIDA. They should have limited their scope and role to just providing the Unique ID.
Not a single study has been undertaken to show that identity is the problem.
But do you agree that having plethora of IDs is a problem?
Nobody has a plethora of ids, again with a miniscule minority who will easily be able to obtain multiple ids in a any new system. And i fail to see how having a plethora of documents (if that is what you are referring to) is a problem. If anything it is actually dividing the problem.
Or even no study have been conducted for that issue either?
Many many studies on multiple ids within a particular documents context. Guess what? atleast in the case of pds the number of duplicates was less than 8% and was easily corrected.
Infact existing studies show that it is the native power structures and arbitrary rules that have caused the problem. Yet we insist on keeping the arbitrary rules in place and spending humongous amounts of money to climb those artificial barriers, instead of demolishing and flattening those barriers, providing equal universal access to basic neccessities of food clothes, medicine, education etc.
Agreed. How can we help remove those arbitrary rules?
Lobbying by NGOS and civil rights activists.
Remember that all existing rules and laws are framed and passed by our "honourable" elected representatives. (MPs, MLAs, etc.)
And we are playing right into their hands with this UID business.
One does not need a name to eat or learn or be nursed back to health.
Agreed. But in a society we need more than that and you can not avail (lawfully) of any if people in your society/community does not know you.
People know each other very well. Infact the identity problem is non existent in our daily lives precisely because of this - relationships and trusted referrals. It is only when we bring in artificial KYC and entitlement norms that we begin to have problems. Instead of correcting these artificial barriers, tax payers money is being blown up. More importantly what ever it is that the state profeers, must be available to all without having to run through the entitlement gauntlet. Kerala state has made the PDS system universal. Everyone can avail of PDS food. Without an artificial scarcity, there is no market for corruption.
But one does require steely resolve to bring ones self out of ones glass tower and stand with the poorest of the poor.
How? By becoming poor?
Not by actually becoming poor permanently, but by living with them on the same resources and constraints, so that the real underlying reasons can be understood. Rather than glass house telescopic observations, that grandiously and gratuosly concluded that people dont have identities.
The last few persons to do that were M. K. Gandhi and Dr. B. R. Ambedkar. One would do well to read carefully their views on our society and understand the burden of identity amongst the poor.
I have sure read MKG but not Dr. BRA. May be it's time I pick some books by/on Dr. BRA.
However, we are still not near providing any "concrete" solution in place of UID.
There is no problem of identity in the first place.
At least they claim they have some goal and vision to reaching out to those poorest of poor and help them.
LAMAO. Those liars have taken all of you for a real 150000Cr ride. Well at last count Rs.1500Cr + 750Cr ride. HAHAHA.
What are we offering? (except spending time on discussing endlessly the futility of UID)?
As i said The problem to all of the "poor", "corruption", "banking", "inclusion", "exclusion" etc is not identity. What we are doing is trying to prevent spending tax payers money on a stupid scheme which has no definition, ill thought goals and wholly fake promises. That in itself will be a commendable achievement.
There are a whole plethora of problems that have a large number of diverse and regionally localised causes. One cannot ask a pointless question of "What is the solution?" without defining each of these problems and causes. Then one can answer with a number of specific solutions.
Not this snake oil, cure all "identity is the root of everything", based on a simple simon question and c grade movie inspired technology.
Can we, as community (Free/Open Source) offer something credible?
Sure. Define the problems.
Even for the case of verifying identity, a web of trust based on signed keys would be utterly trivial to implement, cost perhaps 400 cr for a 100% coverage, keeps control with the individual and has none of the vulnerabilities and threats inherent in a centralised system. Dr. Nagarjuna already has most of it in place.
Of course this system does not make fancy claims of crating heaven on earth. Merely establishes a web of trust.