quasi spake thusly:

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Nikhil Joshi spake thusly:

...

6. You mean there is no VB for Linux? How do people write software then ??

Here's a similar one I was asked yesterday:

"I know a little what shell scripting is -- but what else can you do on Linux ? "

I should add that he was a MSc Computer Science student and had scored ~70% in his BSc Computer Science course.

this shows: #1 Apathy towards GNU/Linux in the education system #2 Complete ignorance of current state of affairs *in his own subject* by the student.

On 25/08/04 18:10 +0530, Binulal Narayanan wrote:

Quasi:

...

this shows: #1 Apathy towards GNU/Linux in the education system #2 Complete ignorance of current state of affairs *in his own subject* by the student.

Dear Friends: This is the case with 99% of the technical student community in India. :-( . Well, this will be more clear if you count the number of

In accordance with Sturgeon's law, that should be 90%.

GNU/Linux users in your class. I don't know what happens in Premier institutes; but u can see people (who are going to be the mighty engineers and scientists who's supposed to shape our nations future) using pirated software everywhere. The computer dealers who assemble

Well, if you remove the enforced Windows requirements from courses, then *some* people may be motivated to move to Linux/BSD/Unix.

Here, in my opinion, are the factors hindering Linux usage/adoption:

1> The prevalance of cheap, low quality hardware (eg, internal modems). 2> The lack of support for Linux from most assemblers/hardware vendors. This is a major issue when it comes to diagnosing hardware trouble. Given the very wide variety of hardware available for the x86 platform, support is far more complicated than for a simpler platform like the Mac.

PCs give pirated software. And most of our students BUY assembed PCs -

3> Because they /want/ support. What we really need is a Walmart equivalent offering cheap Linux desktops for 10K or less. Unlike the developed world, where 1K USD is a relatively small amount, the equivalent for an Indian is high.

4> Linux GUIs are not familiar to the end user. If you say KDE/Gnome, they need to run as fast as Windows in 128 MB RAM, which simply isn't happening.

5> I have found that most people I meet need to be "taught" how to use Linux and administer it. There is no quick way of learning to administer a Unix system. You either learn on the job, from someone who will walk you through it (this *will* take years), or you experiment around and teach yourself. The third easy choice is not to do this at all.

instead of assembling one. When projects come, they take it from Open Source or BUY it from PROJECT GUIDANCE AGENCIES. If you ask our "TECHNICALLY POWERED GRADUATE" such questions, s/he'll say it's out of syllabus. Nobody is ready to take the pain. If technical Students ignore technology so much, what about others. (Anyway they live better lives.)

Life? whats that?

So how long will we have to wait for the culture to evolve,
           where we use softwares giving the right RESPECT to its 

developers?

Respect? Most of the software developers are in it for the money, not respect. And money comes to those who can support Windows and develop for it faster than those who develop for Linux (state of the market).

           where people put back something to the  ocean of 

knowledge, from which they nourished ?

I know of very few people in India who share knowledge. Even knowledge is treated as something secret, sharing which will reduce your market value.

           where people share the knowledge with others who never 

got a chance to?

A chance to do what? Learn? Most of the people on this list who share knowledge have joined much earlier. They know enough to search for information on Google first. Given that they learnt at a time when the TLDP was young, Internet connections were expensive, and Google just didn't have the volume of information it does today, I would say that they have made enough contributions back in terms of the sheer volume of documentation.

So, when do the newbies on the list start posting answers? It doesn't matter if you aren't really clear on the topic, try helping and reading documentation to help out. You will learn far more that way.

Devdas Bhagat

On 25/08/04 23:06 +0530, Asit Vadhavkar wrote:

...

3> Because they /want/ support. What we really need is a Walmart equivalent offering cheap Linux desktops for 10K or less. Unlike the developed world, where 1K USD is a relatively small amount, the equivalent for an Indian is high.

For a common man in developed world 1K USD is lot of money dude..

Relatively? If your average income is ~ 24 K, then 1K is about 2 weeks of work.

Here, average income is closer to ~ 200 USD, so 1K is about 5 months.

Big difference.

Devdas Bhagat

On Thu, Aug 26, 2004 at 07:42:46AM +0530, Nikhil Joshi wrote:

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Devdas Bhagat wrote:

...

Well, if you remove the enforced Windows requirements from courses, then *some* people may be motivated to move to Linux/BSD/Unix.

ease of development provided by Visual Basic. Many of Open Source developers despise VB just because it is a Microsoft product. software to be delivered as fast as possible; Visual Studio comes to the rescue. the emergence of .NET technology J2EE I feel is certainly going to face some competition.

What was the last open source compiler / IDE that you used?

Given this scenario I feel the people who design the curriculum are obliged to include more of Windows content than Linux

Teach technologies like Visual Studio, .NET, J2EE in colleges? Is that what education is about? Ever heard of minor things like algorithms, data structures, software engineering, ToC, grammars, programming languages, OOT?

I remember there was an effort at cleaning up the curriculum mess that Nagarjuna was contributing to ... wonder what's up with that.

3-4 years ago when I started using Linux, I hoped I will see widespread use of Linux in Desktop environment, but alas, Linux has still remained in the domain of enthusiasts.The present if is indicative of future, I beleive Linux will continue to dominate the Server environment and Windows the Desktop environment.

What world are you living in? Where do you get your reports from? Come to IIT once and I'll show you where "the world" (not IIT) is going with Linux. The problem with typical city-graduates is that they think their city and their neighbourhood defines the world. They seriously think that a few PHBs sitting in their plush offices define the IT scenario. Dream of Linux in the mainstream? Linux is already mainstream, man!

I feel this debate is kinda two-three years too late. Linux penetration will soon cease to be a problem. The thing worth thinking about is how do LUG'ers and general enthu people create business opportunities for themselves. Whenever any road-side hussler says "Linux" the PHBs stop their Mercs and get down to listen to him. There's a lot of money in Linux training right now. I know, because I make some all the time! ;)

A couple of comments. IIT enforces linux for the first semester on all new students. Also, most assemblers today do provide PCs with only Linux pre-installed. If yours doesn't, throw him out the door with loads of ridicule.

When it comes to students not appreciating these things, I don't really care ... especially if they are engineering grads from city universities. Appreciation and contribution to open source is and always will be the domain of the enlightened few. Most students treat education as a means to job. The fact that they chose engineering is incidental, since that's what currently assures them a job. Nothing wrong with that ... everyone has a life to live. Just don't waste your time crying over lack of enthusiasm ... you're bloody looking at the wrong people! You don't need to be a CS guy, or even an engineer to appreciate open source and the hacker mentality! Ask Pamela Jones from Groklaw if you don't believe me.

Sameer.

Sameer,

On Thu, 2004-08-26 at 09:38, Sameer D. Sahasrabuddhe wrote:

I remember there was an effort at cleaning up the curriculum mess that Nagarjuna was contributing to ... wonder what's up with that.

Are you sure? You must be kidding. ;-)

Sameer.

Ducking and hiding. :-)

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Nikhil Joshi spake thusly:

As per my personal experience, development on Linux is far more tougher than in Windows. I recently worked on a live mini-ERP project and I was quite fascinated by the ease of development provided by Visual Basic.

That is a sweeping comment, and maybe you should consider the fact that you have been unlucky with your experience with GNU/Linux.

On Sunday Anand Banu showed us how he built a Supercomputer with a Free Software tool chain. That is one mammoth task. Yet all the components are simple and robust. This is a Unix trait, I know, and the Unix philosophy is far far superior to the M$ one as far as *getting work done* is concerned.

Leaving aside the ethical reasons for using GNU/Linux (and they are compelling enough) the GNU/Linux environment is simply elegant and beautiful for the problem-solver-cum-programmer. I dont know about the NIIT-Aptec-BE-type-programmer though.

It was the first time I was working on VB and before I knew I was writing VB modules!

VB as a RAD tool is not so bad. But it sux big time when it comes to developing non-trivial applications. BTW GUI building is not a non-trivial task.

Many of Open Source developers despise VB just because it is a Microsoft product.But I still feel that in real world situations where Managers are paranoid about ROI ( Return Of Investment ) and expect software to be delivered as fast as possible; Visual Studio comes to the rescue.

Oh, please. Time gets screwed up because of *unreliability*. What you speak is true if you are talking about minor tasks (in complexity, not size).

Also given the emergence of .NET technology I beleive Visual Studio is going to be a dominant development environment. J2EE I feel is certainly going to face some competition.

Given this scenario I feel the people who design the curriculum are obliged to include more of Windows content than Linux

Oh, please. Education, as in University courses -- not programming courses, should deal with /what goes behind/. Including specific software is plain stupid.

exactly . 3-4 years ago when I started using Linux, I hoped I will see widespread use of Linux in Desktop environment, but alas, Linux has still remained in the domain of enthusiasts.

Oh, please & eGawd! do you happen to live in Chandrapur or Patna, by any chance ?

The present if is indicative of future, I beleive Linux will continue to dominate the Server environment and Windows the Desktop environment.

You have some serious misconceptions which you should consult a GNU/Linux doctor about ASAP.

And, then again, why are you on this list ?

On Thu, Aug 26, 2004 at 12:20:06PM +0530, Rohit Baisakhiya wrote:

CAN WE STOP this thread here now.

Dude, are you new to this list??? :))

No, but seriously ... why stop this thread? FLOSS, Linux and cousins are all a community phenomenon. Its forums like ours and threads like this, that defines what our community stands for. If members of a Linux Users Group are not aware of Linux's position in today's world, how do you expect anyone else to be?

Sameer.

On 28/08/04 11:44 +0530, komal wrote:

...

A chance to do what? Learn? Most of the people on this list who share knowledge have joined much earlier. They know enough to search for information on Google first. Given that they learnt at a time when the TLDP was young, Internet connections were expensive, and Google just didn't have the volume of information it does today, I would say that they have made enough contributions back in terms of the sheer volume of documentation.

So, when do the newbies on the list start posting answers? It doesn't matter if you aren't really clear on the topic, try helping and reading documentation to help out. You will learn far more that way.

Devdas Bhagat

Great Devdas. I have been following your post since long time on Linux India, firewall wizard and innumerable other mailing lists. The amount of knowledge that I have gained is awe some.Linux and Open Source related mailing lists are alive and kicking only because of motivated and passionate people like you. I salute

Yikes! I'm one of the laziest people around. Come to think of it, that is one of the biggest reasons to like a Unixlike OS. Script everything once and then you are free to do what you want.

The biggest reason I contribute is because people helped me when I was a newbie, so I try to pass it on. Pass it forward is a good way of doing things.

your dedication .I hope to meet you one day and share my bear. Perhaps you

I understand Gujarat is still a dry state.

should consider writing for magazine like Linux For you or should I say if anybody from Linux For You is on list should contact you to enlighten community about what is Free/Open Source software is all about and motto of sharing knowledge.

Like I said, I am too lazy.

Please get some time to visit Gujrart.

I used to work in Surat.

Devdas Bhagat