On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Philip S Tellis wrote:

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I've been disheartened by the drop in quality of this list. It used to be a `look what I found' attitude, now it's turned into a `I'm using linux so you must help me!' attitude.

....

Too many good members of this list have left or turned inactive because they are fed up. If things don't change, there'll be very few left.

Time for me to repeat what I'd asked for long time back! ;-)

Why not fork the list!? I really long for a techies-only list. Not that I won't subscribe to the newbies list, where I can read and answer at will, but I am not hit by something unexpected!

regards, jaju

Philip S Tellis [Sun Oct 28, 2001 at 03:03:28PM +0530]:

On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Ravindra Jaju wrote:

...

Time for me to repeat what I'd asked for long time back! ;-)

Why not fork the list!? I really long for a techies-only list. Not that I won't subscribe to

To break my stand, I vote in favour of a fork.

This is long, you have been warned :-)

Okay, so the list forks, one for newbies and one more techie oriented. Can you really say this will be for the good of Linux in Mumbai, or elsewhere ? How does one define a newbie ? Someone who doesn't know he should RTFM ? Heck, do you realise, he may not know that TFM actually exists ? I did not know when I started using linux in the days when this list had just started up (that is circa when pcq gave out rh 5.2) and John Fernandes (Hi John you still around pal ?) actually walked me through the entire insatllation and setup *over the phone* one sunday afternoon. Later Satya was my telephonic benefactor.

So why relegate someone to an essentially second class list because he's a newbie ? What stops anyone from having a techie discussion on this list itself ? All you need is to put a say [tech] tag to the subject and use procmail to put all these in a seperate folder that you can read first and then if you want to, you could browse the rest of the list mails. The list forks and most people will only subscribe to one or the other. The chances of having a query answered on the newbie list will definitely dwindle. Then how do you propose stopping *newbies* from subscribing to the techie list and firing their queries there because they got no answer on the newbie list ? Unsub them for asking, or keep the techie list open only by invitation ?

Nobody stops you from a techie discussion on this very list, most newbies will probably not read the stuff at all, but you know, one or two might benefit from it and take it a little further. There hasn't been *any* technical discussion here anyway for quite some time since Philip sent in his write up on going around vsnl's idiotic *anti-spam* measures. And Philip seems mighty upset, he even forgot to change the subject line this time :) no offence meant but that's how it is.

The list has been maxing out at a couple of (or three) dozen posts per day give or take a few. So ignore the mails that don't interest you.

Sure, nothing stops you from just setting up a techie list, it's actually just a matter of a few mouse clicks at groups.yahoo.com and if you can tolerate the yahoo sig, it is free as in beer. Yes I know mouse clicks sounds like heresy in a mail about a linux *techie* list but the list I had to set up last fortnight was for a group of chaps whose average age is 60+ and all use windows, but with a little pushing I will get atleast a few of them to give linux a try. Then they can choose for themselves. But we digress from the discussion. Sorry. Just that I was in the Boy Scouts and we were expected to do one good deed a day; I enjoy using linux and I'd like to give something back even if it is only by convincing a few people to give it a try.

Not all computer users are tech savvy, so not all are bothered as to the nuances of the OS. If he can exchange his email, browse the net and maybe print out a letter or two, he is going to be satisfied. You cannot change this attitude. Not every car owner can repair his own car if it breaks down. That does not mean he can't drive a car or should not be issued a driving license.

The call for a techie list smells, at least to me, as being very elitist. I am sure I have stepped on a few toes so I think I'll leave off here with an apology to all such bearers of stepped-on toes; and besides you know, all of us doctors suffer from a God-complex, so there :)

regards,

Sharukh.

all follow-ups to the list. death threats to personal mail :-)

Ravindra Jaju [Sun Oct 28, 2001 at 05:00:37PM +0530]:

On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Dr . Sharukh K . R . Pavri . wrote:

...

This is long, you have been warned :-)

(This is short).

This probably longer :-)

Your mail is based on wrong assumptions.

Is it ?

1] No one stops newbies from subscribing to the techies' list.

But it seems the very reason to start a *techie* list was to avoid reading (okay, I'll give you this -- the same old) newbie mails. Do correct me if I am wrong. I remember when every alternate email asked about how to configure X on the Sis cards :-) and peolpe did get pointed to links even then. And which newbie would automatically subscribe to the techie list ?

2] Newbies ask all newbie questions on the newbies' list.

Where said queries *may* not find an answer. Yes, I fully agree with whoever said that he/she is not obliged to answer any query. But are we not forgetting the fact that we are all social animals and open source is essentially based on peer review. If Linus Torvalds had not open sourced and shared Linux, would it be such a success story ? Knowledge is the only commodity that actually doubles on sharing. The call for a seperate techie list comes from people who are undoubtedly far advanced in their knowledge of matters computing, and for whom such things may seem trivial, but are there not *some* things that leave them foxed ? I know my simile of the non mechanical minded car owner is not fully correct, but what does one do if the car mechanic told you to dig out the car user manual and fix the differential yourself :-(.

3] The so-called elitist .... nah! There, you are actually smelling like a politician, trying to create a divide! ;-)

I thought it was the other way around, I was trying to avoid the divide, or am I missing the boat completely ? And believe me I hate poiticians and politics. I only vote because I think it is the correct thing to do.

There's no such thing in anyone's mind. Just that all those who care and want to help need not do it all the time!

How true !! And I am not even remotely suggesting that people *must* help and that too all the time.

How can I make sure that everyone follows the rules and uses proper tags in his/her subject line, thus letting procmail do the stuff for me?

Ahh...but there lies the root of our problem does it not :-). Of course someone will not put the right tag on his mail but then if that bothers you, you can choose to ignore the mail in it's entirety because anyway the mail won't get filtered to your priority folder. One would assume that a techie mail would come from someone *responsible*, as opposed to which, I think a newbie should be given the benefit of the doubt; though YMMV.

And, as I said, normally everyone in the techies' list will also subscrbe to the newbies' list.

I should most certainly hope they do.

Linux and the Open Source concept is about sharing and helping. How can you even get terms like elitist etc. into the picture!?

Alright I take it back; I used the word for want of another, maybe more apt, to convey what *I* felt. I already apologised in advance in my initial mail. But then I would still suggest putting in abeyance any thoughts of forking the list. Just my 2 paisa.

cheers!

-- jaju

regards,

Sharukh.

I once again would like to point out that this or my previous mails are not in any way personal attacks on anyone whatsoever.

Dr . Sharukh K . R . Pavri wrote on Sunday, October 28, 2001

This is long, you have been warned :-) Okay, so the list forks, one for newbies and one more techie

oriented. Can [snip]

The list has been maxing out at a couple of (or three) dozen

posts per day

give or take a few. So ignore the mails that don't interest

you.

I think what Sharukh is saying is fairly right. I read each and every mail that I receive from ILUG, so that I learn maximum out it. Sometimes the contents go like a McGrath bouncer, but most of the times, I get some top class info from the mails. Now suppose, the list forks, then the biggest sufferers will be the newbies like me. Another question, as Sharukh pointed out, what will be the selection criteria for the Techie list? I toltally agree to what Sharukh said in this matter. At the same time, I agree with Philip that things are not as good as it used to be previously, but that's part of life. Some humble suggestions to improve the situation.

-> A couple of months back I was assigned the work of compiling Mail Archives to FAQs. But then I cud not manage time becoz of one or the other reason. Someone else with lesser work pressure can voluteer to share the work with me, then I can again start the work. But how the ppl will know abt the requirements? The moderators or the List-Admin can mail list periodically abt such requirements. Similar situation regarding the db.ilug-bom.org.in happened recently, which has actually triggered this thread.

-> Monthly meets has virtually been stopped since 3-4 months or so. I think it's an excellent way to improve overall communication. We had online version of the monthly meets. Atleast that can be continued.

-> A more informative footer/header for the mails. I've seen this idea working great wonders at India-linux-help mailing list. Recently they've started putting Linux related tips in a unique way. They call it *Linux One Stanza Tips*. Many of the list members have so many valuable tips regarding linux which can be spread like this.

-> Similarly, we can include some more( and may be better) info in the monthly reminder mail that we receive from the list regarding general settings of our account at the ILUG.

-> We can also force the members to follow rules in proper manner. I certainly don't think that every new subscriber reads and follows the basic rules & etiquette in posting the mail to the list. As philip pointed out, banning mails with no subject line or mails with HTML contents or something similar. It can really put a sense of discipine in the members.

I hope everyone on the list will take +vely. I don't have disregard for anyone's views and I fully respect them.

Waiting for replies.

regards, Sharukh.

Warm Regards, $ sonpal -kj