Im submiting papers to my admin authority for usage of FLOSS.To start the battle , i want to convince them to use GNU/Linux instead of WinXP. Can someone through light on cost estimate for single machine using WinXP + Office and another using GNU/Linux
WinXP cost somewhere around Rs 6000 single machine licensing ( im not sure ) .Can someone point to some relevant data. Google dint helped me much...
any other points for paper is most welcomed
Raj
Cost of windows xp: 1) OS cost is Rs. 7,000 for first copy and 5,000 for paper licenses 2) Office 2003 isn't free!! it costs Rs.17,490 1 user license!!!!! 3) With windows you MUST use Antivirus/Spyware/Adware removing tool it costs --> Rs. 1,675.00 for Norton AV 2005 1 user license
for costs go to http://ebay.in
and remember the post-installation and setup costs too. Windows needs frequent format-installations too, Most virus screw your system
Revant wrote:
Cost of windows xp:
- OS cost is Rs. 7,000 for first copy and 5,000 for paper licenses
If you are talking volume license (any office with over 20 pcs can otp for it), you will get WinXP for 5-5.5k, not OEM, but corporate floating license (can move from one pc to another when you change / discard pc).
- Office 2003 isn't free!! it costs Rs.17,490 1 user license!!!!!
can go as low as 11K per pc. But this comes without access database. However, comes with MSDE / SQLServer desktop edition.
- With windows you MUST use Antivirus/Spyware/Adware removing tool it
costs --> Rs. 1,675.00 for Norton AV 2005 1 user license
for costs go to http://ebay.in
and remember the post-installation and setup costs too. Windows needs frequent format-installations too, Most virus screw your system
I have been using winxp for 3 years now and we dont need to do format installtation. That is the excuse normally given by hardware vendors who dont know what they are doing. The only 2 times I did a format and install was once when i did something really stupid with the service manager configuration and messed up the entire thing (will also happen on linux if you play around with config files or kernel without knowing what you are doing.) and once after I installed service pack 2 and then realised that i didnt want the changes it made.
Virus attacks are a different ball game. Here again, if the users are careful and sensible, most virus will not have an impact. If the user is stupid (like running linux desktop as root), then you are in for hell even on linux. There are some free antivirus software on windows, AVG being popular among them.
Also remember that if you are willing to use Open Office in place of MsOffice, then you can also do it on WinXP. There are similar tools for other things. It can come to this actually that you only pay for WinXP platform (5.5K per user) and use everything else free.
Please know all these arguments since there will always be someone who will come up with them. If you have not explained these possibilities in your presentation, once they get a different view, the management will simply classify you as biased and ignore the rest of your paper irrespective of its merit in other aspects.
Make sure you talk of support and cost of support. If anyone says that windows is supported by microsoft please be ready for details on that. Microsoft does not provide support on windows (except to very large companies) and they will charge you for all support calls made, even if the problem was due to their software bug. There is very little documentation available on windows per se. Most support, documentation and newsgroup / usergroup help is only on programming.
Also explain that support on windows from the hardware vendor or the neighbourhood computer shop is a bad idea. Most of them have no idea except to reinstall the software, or solve absolutely basic problems. In most cases, they are really useless. I speak from experience.
Be very clear on what support you need on Linux, where it can be obtained from (how much you can provide on your own, how much it will cost them to get from someone else if you leave the job), how much support will cost, what learning curve will be faced and finally, what happens to customised softwar that the company may be using.
The managemnet will want to ensure that they do not get into a situation where they are dependennt on you and therefore subject to commercial blackmail / bargainng leverage. So make it clear in the paper that there are people who can do it (apart from you) and that there are commercial support companies.
<< Shameless Plug of commercial opportunity === We can also provide support, we have a linux team in our company === >>
You will have only one chance to get your message accross. ensure it does not show bias and has full disclosure of cost, benefit, opportnity, threat and potential problems. Have a separate section in your paper for "CounterPointer" and your reply to each.
Regards Saswata
On 29/03/05 21:25 +0530, Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote: <snip>
I have been using winxp for 3 years now and we dont need to do format installtation. That is the excuse normally given by hardware vendors who
I recommend formatting and reinstalling if you get a virus infection. This is the same advice that I give for r00ted Unix systems.
You may be able to avoid getting virus infections with proper use of non administrative accounts, filesystem ACLs, registry edits and ACLs, not using IE (which means that nothing should use IE), staying patched, updated, firewalled (including a full fledged application layer gateway for HTTP content scanning), and then some luck.
But without all that, you really aren't defended against viruses/worms/rootkits/other malware.
Devdas Bhagat
Raj Shaz wrote:
WinXP + Office and another using GNU/Linux
Before you go for it, please do a compatibility check for your existing hardware and software. Will the Linux do all that you are currently doing in Windows, including the use of peripherial/pluggable devices. If possible, test the system with your new OS.
Windows XP Home is about 3K5 and Pro is 6K2. Both these prices are for OEM packs only, which legally speaking cannot be loaded now in your existing system, however you can atleast keep your system uptodate with all security updates. XP Home does all your win98 type of work so you may not need Pro. For Office, you can use OpenOffice for windows.
Proprietery versions of Linux are not free so keep that in mind too. The free versions may not have all features, so take care. Try out some flavours before making the final decision.
Regards,
Rony.
On 28/03/05 22:16 +0530, Rony Bill wrote: <snip>
Proprietery versions of Linux are not free so keep that in mind too. The free versions may not have all features, so take care. Try out some flavours before making the final decision.
Which distribution of Linux is proprietary? RedHat and Novell sell support for their enterprise/professional versions. The source is still there, if you want it.
There is no major difference in the free (unsupported) stuff and the supported stuff in terms of available features. The unsupported versions generally have far more features than the ones that ship with support contracts.
Features are a function of packages (and versions) and their compile time options. The difference between most different distributions is package management tools, frontends and default settings. Not a very big thing for a good administrator, a major thing for a bad one.
As for advocacy, there is an advocacy howto on http://www.tldp.org/
Devdas Bhagat
On 28/03/05 22:16 +0530, Rony Bill wrote: <snip>
Proprietery versions of Linux are not free so keep that in mind too. The free versions may not have all features, so take care. Try out some flavours before making the final decision. Which distribution of Linux is proprietary? RedHat and Novell sell support for their enterprise/professional versions. The source is still there, if you want it.
There is no major difference in the free (unsupported) stuff and the supported stuff in terms of available features. The unsupported versions generally have far more features than the ones that ship with support contracts.
Dear Devdas, I think you are not entirely accurate here. The reason being most enterprise Linux suppliers such as RedHat and Suse, provide a revised Linux kernel and utility enhancments over this customised kernel.
These technical enhancements would require a lot of insight into the Linux kernel, and is something which is not economical or academically exciting to the average Linux System administrator.
However yes I do accept that the average Linux user may not need all those nifty features, which makes Fedora Core 3 as good as a Red Hat Ent server.
Take care, Paul Alapatt
Features are a function of packages (and versions) and their compile time options. The difference between most different distributions is package management tools, frontends and default settings. Not a very big thing for a good administrator, a major thing for a bad one.
As for advocacy, there is an advocacy howto on http://www.tldp.org/
Devdas Bhagat
On Monday 28 Mar 2005 10:16 pm, Rony Bill wrote:
free versions may not have all features, so take care.
for example?
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Monday 28 Mar 2005 10:16 pm, Rony Bill wrote:
free versions may not have all features, so take care.
for example?
RedHat Enterprise Linux is free, or atleast I got it officially free but it does not have ftp, dns, dhcp servers. Some of the other branded linux distros too have some features removed from their free versions. This information is available on their websites.
Regards,
Rony.
Rony Bill wrote:
RedHat Enterprise Linux is free, or atleast I got it officially free but it does not have ftp, dns, dhcp servers. Some of the other branded linux distros too have some features removed from their free versions. This information is available on their websites.
Regards,
Rony.
Sorry, I forgot to mention, RHEL Work Station Edition was given free.
Rony.
On 30/03/05 17:04 +0530, Rony Bill wrote:
Rony Bill wrote:
RedHat Enterprise Linux is free, or atleast I got it officially free but it does not have ftp, dns, dhcp servers. Some of the other branded linux distros too have some features removed from their free versions. This information is available on their websites.
Regards,
Rony.
Sorry, I forgot to mention, RHEL Work Station Edition was given free.
Workstations are meant for desktop usage. Desktops in a corporate environment do not need to normally run FTP/DNS/DHCP servers. This is like saying that Windows XP Home edition does not ship with AD support on (IIRC).
You can always download, compile and install those RPMS from the source RPMs on the RedHat site.
Devdas Bhagat
Devdas Bhagat wrote:
Workstations are meant for desktop usage. Desktops in a corporate
environment do not need to normally run FTP/DNS/DHCP servers. This is like saying that Windows XP Home edition does not ship with AD support on (IIRC).
You can always download, compile and install those RPMS from the source RPMs on the RedHat site.
Devdas Bhagat
I know the difference. I am not highlighting any individual problem. The point being highlighted was about how popular names in linux have become commercialised. Earlier there was one distro that gave the choices of different installations like my Red Hat 8 which had a desktop, workstation and server installation choices in it and it was free. Now these companies distribute software in different packages and price them accordingly. Debian is definately a promising distro that is recomended by many experts but those who are switching over from windows know more about brands like RedHat, Mandrake and SuSe.
Regards,
Rony.
From: Rony Bill ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk
I know the difference. I am not highlighting any individual problem. The point being highlighted was about how popular names in linux have become commercialised. Earlier there was one distro that gave the choices of different installations like my Red Hat 8 which had a desktop, workstation and server installation choices in it and it was free. Now these companies distribute software in different packages and price them accordingly. Debian is definately a promising distro that is recomended by many experts but those who are switching over from windows know more about brands like RedHat, Mandrake and SuSe.
These companies too need to generate revenue. They can't do that by giving away their software for free ;). Fedora which is a testing ground for new technologies is a great free distro. SuSE being a bit more commercialized does give away certain editions for free...
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On Wednesday 30 Mar 2005 4:55 pm, Rony Bill wrote:
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Monday 28 Mar 2005 10:16 pm, Rony Bill wrote:
free versions may not have all features, so take care.
for example?
RedHat Enterprise Linux is free, or atleast I got it officially free but it does not have ftp, dns, dhcp servers. Some of the other branded linux distros too have some features removed from their free versions. This information is available on their websites.
ive used redhat from 4.2 to 9 and all had the above servers, so have the versions of mandrake, debian and suse that i have tried - i thought rhel was a paid for thingie. In fact i find your post extremely weird. And why would anyone buy 'branded distros' whatever they are?
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
ive used redhat from 4.2 to 9 and all had the above servers, so have the versions of mandrake, debian and suse that i have tried - i thought rhel was a paid for thingie. In fact i find your post extremely weird. And why would anyone buy 'branded distros' whatever they are?
I was refering to the present situation, not the past. SuSe's site has a free version as well as other paid versions. RHEL as you mention is a paid distro. The free versions are like 'personal' editions whereas the ones for businesses are more featured and paid for. Is SuSe Professional 9 or above, a freeware software like SuSe personal? By branded distros I am refering to popular brands like RedHat, SuSe, Mandrake and the likes. Is it legal to copy and use as many times, paid-for linux versions?
Rony.
On Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 05:42:02PM +0530, Rony Bill wrote:
I was refering to the present situation, not the past. SuSe's site has a free version as well as other paid versions. RHEL as you mention is a paid distro. The free versions are like 'personal' editions whereas the ones for businesses are more featured and paid for. Is SuSe Professional 9 or above, a freeware software like SuSe personal? By branded distros I am refering to popular brands like RedHat, SuSe, Mandrake and the likes. Is it legal to copy and use as many times, paid-for linux versions?
Look, get Debian or FreeBSD, they have "everything". If either doesn't have something you consider critical, say what it is.
On Wednesday 30 Mar 2005 5:42 pm, Rony Bill wrote:
9 or above, a freeware software like SuSe personal? By branded distros I am refering to popular brands like RedHat, SuSe, Mandrake and the likes. Is it legal to copy and use as many times, paid-for linux versions?
i bought mandrake10.1 cds for rs 180 (including courier charges) It has everything needed to run practically anything. Do you mean to say that this is a 'pirated' thingie and i need to pay mandrake for it?
From: Rony Bill ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk
RedHat Enterprise Linux is free, or atleast I got it officially free but it does not have ftp, dns, dhcp servers. Some of the other branded linux distros too have some features removed from their free versions. This information is available on their websites.
That may be because you have a RHEL Workstation or Desktop edition.
Dinesh.
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Raj
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 21:46:21 +0530, Raj Shaz rajshas@gmail.com wrote:
Im submiting papers to my admin authority for usage of FLOSS.To start the battle , i want to convince them to use GNU/Linux instead of WinXP. Can someone through light on cost estimate for single machine using WinXP + Office and another using GNU/Linux
WinXP cost somewhere around Rs 6000 single machine licensing ( im not sure ) .Can someone point to some relevant data. Google dint helped me much...
any other points for paper is most welcomed
For cost of actual windows and maintenance you sud call Microsoft India and get correct pricing +91-22-22844000
About Linux OS pricing and TCO may be you want to talk to someone from Novell, you can call on 91-22-28342244. I remember they doing some work on TCO etc.
Linux is free ( free as in freedom ) not zero cost. You to make that to be very clear your management. Coz usually its taken in free as in free beer context which is incorrect.
You can download Debian / Fedora / etc install and use for free , works great if you are geek and love to fix problems yourself. In case you are an enterprise and its more important for your business to be always on its better you opt in for support options from companies like Novell / Redhat etc. afaik some of novells linux offerings are based on support / upgrade etc and not on license fees .
apart from the cost may be you want to focus on security, flexibility, managebility, no vendor lockin etc ...
maybe you want to refer to some of these http://www.novell.com/linux/migrate/ and http://www.novell.com/linux/truth/
HTH Regards Harsh
Raj
Debian is as good as Any other Retail "Business" Linux because as fedora and RHEL are seperated, Debian has been dividing itself from birth as - Satble, Unstable and testing V/s redhat just divided packages into stable and unstable, RHEL and Fedora respectively, and fedora is assumed testing ground.
and heres a Debian based Business Linux (debian 3 woody will work same) http://www.userlinux.com/
Correct me, if wrong revant
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Devdas Bhagat -
Dinesh Joshi -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
Paul Alapatt -
Raj Shaz -
Revant -
Rony Bill -
Saswata Banerjee & Associates -
Satya -
SeekingGyan