* Here is the initial design document for FOSSDevConf , Please feel free to contact us.
Date of document : 30 March 2010
What is FOSSDevConf ? *FOSSDevConf is the yet another conference for Free and Open Source Developers. This is a true Developer to Developer Conference. *Who can speak at FOSSDevConf ? * Developer and FOSS contributors (Activist, Supporter, Business using FOSS etc) provided they follow Rules and Guidelines of FOSSDevConf. If you are working on any un-finished FOSS project, you are most welcome to show it to get more developers. You can put your stall. There is no fees needed for speakers. *Who can attend this ? * Any one. All you need to pay fees of conference if any. *What is difference between FOSSDevConf and other workshop ?* Basically we trying to show a true spirit of Open World = (Open Content, Open Innovations, Open Standards, Open Source/Free Software). For this we are imposing some guidelines on everybody who are part of it. *What are Strict Rules and Terms of Workshop ?
*
- *For Audience* - no rules applied. but we expect tweets and blog to get real feedback. - *For Speakers*
- *ODF/HTML5 : *Presentation must be shown using ODF (Open Office format) Or other Open Technology like HTML5. - *NO-DOC , NO-DOCx : *Any speaker who use Microsoft /MAC technology will be disqualified to present. - *OGG : *You are only allowed to use Ogg music/video for demo. Any video with .mp4 Or other format will disqualify your selection. - *GNU/Linux : *You are allowed to carry Any Laptop with Any Operating System over it But you can only plug your laptop to projector if you have GNU/Linux OS over it. If you do not carry such laptop then you can ask organiser to arrange one for you. - *Copyright Policy : *Every Speakers are advised to make a account on main FOSSDevConf Server. They must submit their presentation Or videos before the timeline. However your presentation will be made public during workshop. All your presentations and other stuff will be licensed under "CC-By-SA" Or public domain. You have to choose either of two license. - *NO-MONO : *You cannot show your product/demos which are made using mono technology. - *NO-FLASH : *We are not entertaining Flash/Flex or other related technology. Please use SVG. - *No-Patents : *You cannot show any technology for which you have applied patent. - *For Organiser* - *Video Recording : *You must provide video recording for all speaker. All Video Recording must be uploaded to our common server using Ogg format - *Images : *All the Images must be uploaded to our common server using PNG format. - *GNU/Linux : *All the Software needed for conducting workshop must be Open Source/Free Software. You must not use Windows or Mac for workshop. - *Free-of-Cost to Speaker : *you can only charge fees to audience but you cannot charge to speaker. we advice you to pay money for - *Free Lunch* : You must provide free lunch and evening snacks to all. - *No-Coke : *You must not use Cocacola during workshop. - Please do not become organiser if you do not know the whole philosophy of Open World. - *Copyright Policy : *Please make sure that all the presentation or other stuff goes under "CC-By-Sa" license, for these copyright holder must be the original author. The uploaded video of workshop which is recorded by FOSSDevConf team must be copyrighted by FOSSDevConf and released under CC-By-Sa License. - *NO-nonfree Distribution* : you must not help any speaker or Organiser to distribute any non-free software or content. Anything which you can distribute in FOSSDevConf must have either CC-By-SA license Or FOSS license. - *NO-FLASH, NO-MONO : *you must not use flash or mono Or any technology - *T-Shirt* : You must provide TShirt to all audience. - Tshirt may or may not contain all sponsors but it should not highlight a particular sponsors in misleading ways - The Design of Tshirt must be uploaded in SVG/PNG format using CC-By-SA license. - *Gift to Speaker : *You must provide gifts to speakers. - *Free Stall* : you must provide free of cost space to stall for the project which are meant for non-profit. Selling FOSS goods like Tshirt other things are treated as non-profit. - *For Sponsors* - *No Interference :* You are not allowed to make inference in FOSSDevConf specially on rules and guidelines. - *No Brandmixing :* any company which have their name similar to FOSSDevConf like FOSSDevCenter, FOSSDevGroup etc are not allowed to sponsor the event.
*Why these rules and guidelines ? *Basically a true FOSS lover who is well aware of all issues in Open World and he/she has these rules in his/her mind. but I have seen some new conference which ignore one or other layer. So basically we are trying to show a true Open Conference. most of the developers are happy to see such guidelines. * How Can I organise FOSSDevConf in my City ?* You are allowed to use FOSSDevConf brand in any city provided you can impose these rules and guidelines on yourself and on speaker. We are totally open people who strongly believe in full freedom. We are just providing a medium. We are working on this isssue ! *Suggestion :* Yup, current contact me, narendra.sisodiya AT gmail.com
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 5:50 PM, narendra sisodiya narendra.sisodiya@gmail.com wrote:
[snip]
- *No-Patents : *You cannot show any technology for which you have applied patent.
Amongst other things this is a red herring. The scope of patents sometimes extends much beyond the realm of the individual contributor, even if they are involved in their day-job on technology development and contribution that is under FOSS.
How do you propose to audit applications for such stuff ?
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 6:00 PM, sankarshan < sankarshan.mukhopadhyay@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 5:50 PM, narendra sisodiya narendra.sisodiya@gmail.com wrote:
[snip]
- *No-Patents : *You cannot show any technology for which you have applied patent.
Amongst other things this is a red herring. The scope of patents sometimes extends much beyond the realm of the individual contributor, even if they are involved in their day-job on technology development and contribution that is under FOSS.
How do you propose to audit applications for such stuff ?
This is speakers responsibility. not to show any such technology which has
patent retrictions. For example, Facebook do have patent on newsfeed but anyone can come and show their code of facebook addons etc. But If somebody make a addon and try to get patent over it. they fossdevconf is not a right place. Yup I agree process is difficult.
-- sankarshan mukhopadhyay
http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog/
Hi,
--- On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 5:50 PM, narendra sisodiya narendra.sisodiya@gmail.com wrote: | - *GNU/Linux : *All the Software needed for conducting workshop must | be Open Source/Free Software. You must not use Windows or Mac --
There is Free/Open Source Software for Windows and Mac as well. Gimp for example, has a Windows and Mac port:
http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/stable.html
http://www.gimp.org/macintosh/
SK
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 6:29 PM, Shakthi Kannan shakthimaan@gmail.comwrote:
Hi,
--- On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 5:50 PM, narendra sisodiya narendra.sisodiya@gmail.com wrote: | - *GNU/Linux : *All the Software needed for conducting workshop must | be Open Source/Free Software. You must not use Windows or Mac --
There is Free/Open Source Software for Windows and Mac as well. Gimp for example, has a Windows and Mac port:
http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/stable.html
http://www.gimp.org/macintosh/
Yes, But I will suggest that do not use such software over window, Use
total open stack. Its a experiment to make totally open workshop (up to extend possible) ,, If Someone use windows for these purpose, I do not care. Such guys will be provide GNU/Linux laptops for demo.
Hi,
I think some of these are fairly arbitrary ...
On 03/30/2010 05:50 PM, narendra sisodiya wrote:
- *OGG : *You are only allowed to use Ogg music/video for demo. Any video with .mp4 Or other format will disqualify your selection.
This should possibly be revised to allow for any Open media format[1].
- *GNU/Linux : *You are allowed to carry Any Laptop with Any Operating System over it But you can only plug your laptop to projector if you have GNU/Linux OS over it. If you do not carry such laptop then you can ask organiser to arrange one for you.
Again too restrictive. There are plenty of FOSS Operating Systems out there besides GNU/Linux.
- *Copyright Policy : *Every Speakers are advised to make a account on main FOSSDevConf Server. They must submit their presentation Or videos before the timeline. However your presentation will be made public during workshop. All your presentations and other stuff will be licensed under "CC-By-SA" Or public domain. You have to choose either of two license.
It's ok to mandate a license (as an organizer) but you might want to include a few more Open content licenses, like for instance: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Licensing:Main#Content_Licenses
- *For Organiser* - *Video Recording : *You must provide video recording for all speaker. All Video Recording must be uploaded to our common
server using Ogg format - *Images : *All the Images must be uploaded to our common server using PNG format.
See above comment on multimedia formats.
- *Free Lunch* : You must provide free lunch and evening snacks to all. - *No-Coke : *You must not use Cocacola during workshop.
I think this is random. What have these things got to do with FOSS ?
- *T-Shirt* : You must provide TShirt to all audience.
Same as above.
- Tshirt may or may not contain all sponsors but it should not highlight a particular sponsors in misleading ways
Too general. What do you mean by highlighting ? Also, to take a step back, why is this restriction there in the first place ? If for example FSF-India becomes the largest sponsor for an event, I would think it fair for them to have the largest logo on the event tshirt. I think you might want to distinguish between 'rules' and 'guidelines'.
- The Design of Tshirt must be uploaded in SVG/PNG format using CC-By-SA license.
See above comment on content licenses.
- *Gift to Speaker : *You must provide gifts to speakers.
Random. See comment on rules Vs guidelines.
[...snip...] cheers, - steve
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_file_format#Examples_of_open_formats
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 10:20 PM, steve steve@lonetwin.net wrote:
Hi,
I think some of these are fairly arbitrary ...
On 03/30/2010 05:50 PM, narendra sisodiya wrote:
- *OGG : *You are only allowed to use Ogg music/video for demo. Any video with .mp4 Or other format will disqualify your selection.
This should possibly be revised to allow for any Open media format[1].
- *GNU/Linux : *You are allowed to carry Any Laptop with Any
Operating
System over it But you can only plug your laptop to projector if you
have GNU/Linux OS over it. If you do not carry such laptop then you can ask organiser to arrange one for you.
Again too restrictive. There are plenty of FOSS Operating Systems out there besides GNU/Linux.
Example ? we are basically want to deny for window and mac.
- *Copyright Policy : *Every Speakers are advised to make a account
on
main FOSSDevConf Server. They must submit their presentation Or
videos before the timeline. However your presentation will be made public during workshop. All your presentations and other stuff will be licensed under "CC-By-SA" Or public domain. You have to choose either of two license.
It's ok to mandate a license (as an organizer) but you might want to include a few more Open content licenses, like for instance: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Licensing:Main#Content_Licenses
Thanks I will prepare a list out of it., Thanks
- *For Organiser*
- *Video Recording : *You must provide video recording for all speaker. All Video Recording must be uploaded to our common
server using Ogg format - *Images : *All the Images must be uploaded to our common server using PNG format.
See above comment on multimedia formats.
- *Free Lunch* : You must provide free lunch and evening snacks to
all. - *No-Coke : *You must not use Cocacola during workshop.
I think this is random. What have these things got to do with FOSS ?
basically coke has trade secret , that is why Open-Cola exist.
- *T-Shirt* : You must provide TShirt to all audience.
Same as above.
- Tshirt may or may not contain all sponsors but it should not
highlight a particular sponsors in misleading ways
Too general. What do you mean by highlighting ? Also, to take a step back, why is this restriction there in the first place ? If for example FSF-India becomes the largest sponsor for an event, I would think it fair for them to have the largest logo on the event tshirt. I think you might want to distinguish between 'rules' and 'guidelines'.
Yes, This is valid point, Ok, this point will left on organisers, I have not think about this !!
- The Design of Tshirt must be uploaded in SVG/PNG format using
CC-By-SA license.
See above comment on content licenses.
- *Gift to Speaker : *You must provide gifts to speakers.
Random. See comment on rules Vs guidelines.
[...snip...] cheers,
- steve
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_file_format#Examples_of_open_formats
random new spiel: http://lonetwin.net/ random old spiel: http://lonetwin.blogspot.com/ what i'm stumbling into: http://lonetwin.stumbleupon.com/
Hi,
On 03/30/2010 11:02 PM, narendra sisodiya wrote:
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 10:20 PM, steve <steve@lonetwin.net
- *GNU/Linux : *You are allowed to carry Any Laptop with Any Operating System over it But you can only plug your laptop to projector if you have GNU/Linux OS over it. If you do not carry such laptop then you can ask organiser to arrange one for you. Again too restrictive. There are plenty of FOSS Operating Systems out there besides GNU/Linux.
Example ? we are basically want to deny for window and mac.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open_source_operating_systems
of those, I believe there is a substantial presence of *BSD and Haiku users in India.
- *Free Lunch* : You must provide free lunch and evening snacks to all. - *No-Coke : *You must not use Cocacola during workshop. I think this is random. What have these things got to do with FOSS ?
basically coke has trade secret , that is why Open-Cola exist.
The presence of Open Cola aside, the fact of the matter is almost everything that we depend on these days has some level of protection of information.
I think applying FOSS principles to Cola is going too far. Anyone who does that is being a hypocrite unless they are also running systems that are not made from closed hardware (ie: various hardware vendor's ^trade secrets^) and are not using closed BIOSes to boot 'em up !!
The entire /reason/ for the FOSS movement is because the people who started it, believed that /software/ ie: the _source_ is something to be shared. If these people also say the same thing about colas, engine designs, business practices, drug research or any other sort of information, that is only incidental. Those additional beliefs should not just be blindly adopted nor be mandated in a ^Software^ Conference.
hth, cheers, - steve
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 11:29 PM, steve steve@lonetwin.net wrote:
Hi,
On 03/30/2010 11:02 PM, narendra sisodiya wrote:
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 10:20 PM, steve <steve@lonetwin.net
- *GNU/Linux : *You are allowed to carry Any Laptop with Any Operating System over it But you can only plug your laptop to projector if you have GNU/Linux OS over it. If you do not carry such laptop then you can ask organiser to arrange one for you.
Again too restrictive. There are plenty of FOSS Operating Systems out there besides GNU/Linux.
Example ? we are basically want to deny for window and mac.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open_source_operating_systems
of those, I believe there is a substantial presence of *BSD and Haiku users in India.
- *Free Lunch* : You must provide free lunch and evening snacks to all. - *No-Coke : *You must not use Cocacola during workshop.
I think this is random. What have these things got to do with FOSS ?
basically coke has trade secret , that is why Open-Cola exist.
The presence of Open Cola aside, the fact of the matter is almost everything that we depend on these days has some level of protection of information.
I think applying FOSS principles to Cola is going too far. Anyone who does that is being a hypocrite unless they are also running systems that are not made from closed hardware (ie: various hardware vendor's ^trade secrets^) and are not using closed BIOSes to boot 'em up !!
The entire /reason/ for the FOSS movement is because the people who started it, believed that /software/ ie: the _source_ is something to be shared. If these people also say the same thing about colas, engine designs, business practices, drug research or any other sort of information, that is only incidental. Those additional beliefs should not just be blindly adopted nor be mandated in a ^Software^ Conference.
Thanks again for valuable inputs.
On Tuesday 30 Mar 2010 11:02:09 pm narendra sisodiya wrote:
- *No-Coke : *You must not use Cocacola during workshop.
I think this is random. What have these things got to do with FOSS ?
basically coke has trade secret , that is why Open-Cola exist.
you forgot to add that the organisers *must* provide sufficient numbers of hammers and chisels to remove the windows keys on all laptops brought to the event.
you forgot to add that the organisers *must* provide sufficient numbers of hammers and chisels to remove the windows keys on all laptops brought to the event.
A better and /*more*/ violent way to do this is : http://bit.ly/cpUM7F
On Wednesday 31 March 2010 12:00:29 Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Tuesday 30 Mar 2010 11:02:09 pm narendra sisodiya wrote:
- *No-Coke : *You must not use Cocacola during workshop.
I think this is random. What have these things got to do with FOSS ?
basically coke has trade secret , that is why Open-Cola exist.
you forgot to add that the organisers *must* provide sufficient numbers of hammers and chisels to remove the windows keys on all laptops brought to the event.
No trade secrets in the key.
But coca cola, they are so secretive they never tell you that it is great for http://members.tripod.com/barefoot_lass/cola.html
I am sure they will unveil these secret new products when everbody has leached out all the calcium from bone and become a pile of shapeless fat.
On Wednesday 31 Mar 2010 12:42:41 pm jtd wrote:
you forgot to add that the organisers must provide sufficient numbers of hammers and chisels to remove the windows keys on all laptops brought to the event.
No trade secrets in the key.
yes and we will need sandpaper also to remove all brand names from the various parts of the laptops - and inspectors to make sure none of the laptops have any patented or proprietary hardware. Also non-GNU/Linux cellphones will be confiscated and destroyed.
On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.orgwrote:
On Wednesday 31 Mar 2010 12:42:41 pm jtd wrote:
you forgot to add that the organisers must provide sufficient numbers of hammers and chisels to remove the windows keys on all laptops brought to the event.
No trade secrets in the key.
yes and we will need sandpaper also to remove all brand names from the various parts of the laptops - and inspectors to make sure none of the laptops have any patented or proprietary hardware. Also non-GNU/Linux cellphones will be confiscated and destroyed.
The only point I was making that if speaker come to present something
he/she must use Full Open Platform. One can carry non-free mobile/pda, (like me, reliance cdma), but when it come to display/demonstrate a software as speaker, all we want he/she must use Full Open Platform. I think my points has been mistaken ,,.,.,.,
On Wednesday 31 Mar 2010 3:53:24 pm narendra sisodiya wrote:
yes and we will need sandpaper also to remove all brand names from the various parts of the laptops - and inspectors to make sure none of the laptops have any patented or proprietary hardware. Also non-GNU/Linux cellphones will be confiscated and destroyed.
The only point I was making that if speaker come to present something
he/she must use Full Open Platform. One can carry non-free mobile/pda, (like me, reliance cdma), but when it come to display/demonstrate a software as speaker, all we want he/she must use Full Open Platform. I think my points has been mistaken
that is not enough - everything proprietary must be banned and burnt on the spot (even the speakers underwear should be open)
On 31 March 2010 16:04, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
that is not enough - everything proprietary must be banned and burnt on the spot (even the speakers underwear should be open)
@Narendra
I can feel the state of confusion you are in right now :)
yes and we will need sandpaper also to remove all brand names from the various parts of the laptops - and inspectors to make sure none of the laptops have any patented or proprietary hardware. Also non-GNU/Linux cellphones will be confiscated and destroyed.
Just wondering what's wrong in expecting that speaker should not use non-GNU laptop in giving he presentation.We are not those guys who are working for Microsoft's competent whose only motive is to kill open source.
Do you like to step on *two boats ( Proprietary + FOSS ) at a time* ?
You can allow others to use any OS (it depends on their choice /* A lot of open source developer especially those working with python use M$ as their primary OS* , their is nothing wrong with that ) , but atleast they should use GNU laptop for giving the presentation/talks/workshops.
On Wednesday 31 Mar 2010 4:42:22 pm Gaurav Paliwal wrote:
You can allow others to use any OS (it depends on their choice /* A lot of open source developer especially those working with python use M$ as their primary OS* , their is nothing wrong with that ) , but atleast they should use GNU laptop for giving the presentation/talks/workshops.
what is a GNU laptop? something that has complete open hardware? Something that has not a single patented part?
what is a GNU laptop? something that has complete open hardware? Something that has not a single patented part?
It is really hard to find a laptop with complete open hardware and not even a single part patented but it is very easy to have a laptop with GNU operating system installed.
For me a GNU laptop is a laptop with atleast a GNU OS installed on it (complete open hardware is an added advantage).
Practically it is possible to have a laptop with GNU OS installed.
Hello
On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 5:25 PM, Gaurav Paliwal < gaurav.paliwal1989@gmail.com> wrote:
what is a GNU laptop? something that has complete open hardware?
Something
that has not a single patented part?
For me a GNU laptop is a laptop with atleast a GNU OS installed on it (complete open hardware is an added advantage).
Exactly what advantage comes with 'open' hardware ?
rajeev
Exactly what advantage comes with 'open' hardware ?
http://www.edn.com/article/CA6676166.html http://www.tech-no-media.com/2009/08/open-source-many-advantages-beyond.html
On Wednesday 31 Mar 2010 5:30:30 pm Rajeev Nair wrote:
For me a GNU laptop is a laptop with atleast a GNU OS installed on it (complete open hardware is an added advantage).
Exactly what advantage comes with 'open' hardware ?
this whole discussion reminds be of the raging war between environmentalists and developers. I read somewhere that a developer is defined as a person who wants to build resorts/cottages in the jungle and an environmentalist is a person who already has a resort/cottage in the jungle. So you define GNU laptop as what you have - Narendra does not have a openmoko phone so he allows reliance phones.
the whole thing is ridiculous - if the person is describing open source or demoing it, what does it matter what tools he uses? suppose he uses a white board and marker pens - I am sure every pen in the market is patented, and so is every whiteboard.
On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 5:49 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.orgwrote:
On Wednesday 31 Mar 2010 5:30:30 pm Rajeev Nair wrote:
For me a GNU laptop is a laptop with atleast a GNU OS installed on it (complete open hardware is an added advantage).
Exactly what advantage comes with 'open' hardware ?
this whole discussion reminds be of the raging war between environmentalists and developers. I read somewhere that a developer is defined as a person who wants to build resorts/cottages in the jungle and an environmentalist is a person who already has a resort/cottage in the jungle. So you define GNU laptop as what you have - Narendra does not have a openmoko phone so he allows reliance phones.
Yes, I am allowed to carry my reliance mobile phone but i am not allowed to
show it that how to create a new application on this mobile phone even thought i have released that application under GPL.
the whole thing is ridiculous - if the person is describing open source or demoing it, what does it matter what tools he uses? suppose he uses a white board and marker pens - I am sure every pen in the market is patented, and so is every whiteboard. -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Senior Associate NRC-FOSS http://certificate.nrcfoss.au-kbc.org.in -- http://mm.glug-bom.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
the whole thing is ridiculous - if the person is describing open source or demoing it, what does it matter what tools he uses?
It do matter on the stage of a FOSS Unconference/Conference but elsewhere I do agree with you it doesn't .
So, what are we all supposed to conclude regarding the original conditions laid ?
On 3/31/10, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
On Wednesday 31 Mar 2010 5:30:30 pm Rajeev Nair wrote:
For me a GNU laptop is a laptop with atleast a GNU OS installed on it (complete open hardware is an added advantage).
Exactly what advantage comes with 'open' hardware ?
this whole discussion reminds be of the raging war between environmentalists and developers. I read somewhere that a developer is defined as a person who wants to build resorts/cottages in the jungle and an environmentalist is a person who already has a resort/cottage in the jungle. So you define GNU laptop as what you have - Narendra does not have a openmoko phone so he allows reliance phones.
the whole thing is ridiculous - if the person is describing open source or demoing it, what does it matter what tools he uses? suppose he uses a white board and marker pens - I am sure every pen in the market is patented, and so is every whiteboard. -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Senior Associate NRC-FOSS http://certificate.nrcfoss.au-kbc.org.in -- http://mm.glug-bom.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 7:03 PM, shamoorthy shamoorthy@gmail.com wrote:
So, what are we all supposed to conclude regarding the original conditions laid ?
It will uploaded in 1-2 days, all will be notified ..
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
the whole thing is ridiculous - if the person is describing open source or demoing it, what does it matter what tools he uses? suppose he uses a white board and marker pens - I am sure every pen in the market is patented, and so is every whiteboard.
It helps prevent detractors from bragging that ultimately 'they' had to use a closed OS to demo FOSS.
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Wednesday 31 Mar 2010 12:42:41 pm jtd wrote:
you forgot to add that the organisers must provide sufficient numbers of hammers and chisels to remove the windows keys on all laptops brought to the event.
No trade secrets in the key.
yes and we will need sandpaper also to remove all brand names from the various parts of the laptops - and inspectors to make sure none of the laptops have any patented or proprietary hardware. Also non-GNU/Linux cellphones will be confiscated and destroyed.
I hope no one will be wearing any patented branded clothing. It can get quite chilly.