List,
I wanted to bounce some thoughts off your collective minds. I recently saw an ad for a cheap laptop launched by HCL - probably trying to compete with the XO and the Eee, with a 7" LCD. Contrary to their image so far of being friendly to FOSS, they seem to be preloading MS-ware (discount versions?) on this PC. I think FOSS starts with a big handicap when manufacturers offer preloaded Windows even in case of computers intended for home or educational use.
Should the community start the two following, connected initiatives?
1. Lobby local computer makers like HCL and Zenith to offer an option for loading Linux or selling systems without a pre-loaded OS (and with a tiny little discount). The pre-installed OS can be on a secondary partition, to allow Windows to be installed on a primary partition at the user's option later. I know, the manufacturers would risk paying the Microsoft Tax (TM) heavily if they tried to do anything like this, but this could at least help bring an unfair practice out into the open.
2. Build up an effort to force Microsoft to let its boot loader recognize and (hopefully) accommodate other operating systems that have been installed previously. This would at least keep them intact instead of being overwritten / rendered unusable when the user inevitably installs Windows, licensed or unlicensed, thus keeping up the possibility that it will get used sometimes, even out of curiosity.
Your constructive comments please.
I wanted to bounce some thoughts off your collective minds. I recently saw an ad for a cheap laptop launched by HCL - probably trying to compete with the XO and the Eee, with a 7" LCD. Contrary to their image so far of being friendly to FOSS, they seem to be preloading MS-ware (discount versions?) on this PC. I think FOSS starts with a big handicap when manufacturers offer preloaded Windows even in case of computers intended for home or educational use.
Should the community start the two following, connected initiatives?
- Lobby local computer makers like HCL and Zenith to offer an option
for loading Linux or selling systems without a pre-loaded OS (and with a tiny little discount). The pre-installed OS can be on a secondary partition, to allow Windows to be installed on a primary partition at the user's option later. I know, the manufacturers would risk paying the Microsoft Tax (TM) heavily if they tried to do anything like this, but this could at least help bring an unfair practice out into the open.
- Build up an effort to force Microsoft to let its boot loader
recognize and (hopefully) accommodate other operating systems that have been installed previously. This would at least keep them intact instead of being overwritten / rendered unusable when the user inevitably installs Windows, licensed or unlicensed, thus keeping up the possibility that it will get used sometimes, even out of curiosity.
Your constructive comments please.
A good idea,but we need good influence and enough people in the respective good books of the manufacturers we intend to influence.The second suggestion needs a world-wide movement,which looks like a task for the FSF.Kenneth? Also,the manufacturer might not mind paying the MS tax if either 1]he is actually interested in FOSS or 2]the community(since FOSS lacks a company/firm which can be dealt with directly) reimburses him for the loss.
Problem is case 1 is very rare while case 2 is almost impossible.Best way is that whenever FOSS supporters buy a new box,they should insist on either a clean HDD or a FOSS OS.Customer demand will eventually goad manufacturers into action.But,problem again is that we hardly ever need to change our boxes due to GNU/Linux' inherent properties of running on really old h/w just as good as on the bleeding edge.We need to solve this conundrum first.
Regards, Easwar
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Nishit Dave wrote:
| 1. Lobby local computer makers like HCL and Zenith to offer an option | for loading Linux or selling systems without a pre-loaded OS (and with | a tiny little discount).
For what it is worth, HCL (especially) and Zenith do have a significant number of models with Linux preloaded (desktop/workstations and laptops)
~sankarshan
On Feb 19, 2008 2:22 PM, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay sankarshan.mukhopadhyay@gmail.com wrote:
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Nishit Dave wrote:
| 1. Lobby local computer makers like HCL and Zenith to offer an option | for loading Linux or selling systems without a pre-loaded OS (and with | a tiny little discount).
For what it is worth, HCL (especially) and Zenith do have a significant number of models with Linux preloaded (desktop/workstations and laptops)
True, but this has more to do with the new launch, which should ideally have been with Linux preloaded. Which led to the question of whether we could ask for a blank HDD and a refund for Windows, and the probable answer would be "No". Ergo, the train of thought about possible routes for a long term solution.
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Nishit Dave wrote:
| True, but this has more to do with the new launch, which should | ideally have been with Linux preloaded. Which led to the question of | whether we could ask for a blank HDD and a refund for Windows, and the | probable answer would be "No". Ergo, the train of thought about | possible routes for a long term solution.
That does run Ubuntu (or Edubuntu) if I know correctly. Amit Karpe (cc: ed) should be able to respond
- --
You see things; and you say 'Why?'; But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?' - George Bernard Shaw www.linkedin.com/in/sankarshan
On Tuesday 19 February 2008 12:46 pm, Nishit Dave wrote:
Should the community start the two following, connected initiatives?
- Lobby local computer makers like HCL and Zenith to offer an
option for loading Linux or selling systems without a pre-loaded OS (and with a tiny little discount).
These hardware manufacturers get a fat kickback for all the freeadware loaded on to your machine, none of which are required on linux.
Also any callcenter zombie can tell u to click this and that on doze. But would be unfamiliar with linux.
- Build up an effort to force Microsoft to let its boot loader
recognize and (hopefully) accommodate other operating systems that have been installed previously.
They have been taken to court and lost / settled for peanuts on this count. You think they care about you? Forget about an entire os, they are being sued for not allowing other apps on their os. Besides loading two oses raises many other issues starting with the need for a bigger disk.
Your constructive comments please.
You cant coexist with the beast of redmond. Just try getting back the money for the preinstalled OS that you will never use. After a class action suit filed in the usa by lindows (linspire) vended it's way thru the courts, the decision was that only individuals can get back the money. The hassle is so great that few bother.
There is a deadly nexus between processor maker, M$, box sellers, app providers and service providers to lock users into a upgrade treadmill.
The best thing you can do is get rid of the M$ rubbish from your IT setup.
Nishit Dave wrote:
- Lobby local computer makers like HCL and Zenith to offer an option
for loading Linux or selling systems without a pre-loaded OS (and with a tiny little discount). The pre-installed OS can be on a secondary partition, to allow Windows to be installed on a primary partition at the user's option later. I know, the manufacturers would risk paying the Microsoft Tax (TM) heavily if they tried to do anything like this, but this could at least help bring an unfair practice out into the open.
There are not many FOSS engineers available to service FOSS based computers. It brings to my mind a question for all:-
How much does a FOSS service provider charge to install GNU/Linux on a computer? What would be the annual maintenance cost per year per FOSS based system? Any average figures?
Another problem is that FOSS is ready for the people, but people are not ready for FOSS. Both users as well as programmers/developers. A guy working for one of the biggest software companies in India told me that FOSS programmers are few and too expensive. Windows based pros are available in lots. Software giants that make banking software use things like dot net for banking solutions. How can such software be expected to run on FOSS? Everyone is looking at the economical side of hiring cheaper programmers who are available by the dozen.
- Build up an effort to force Microsoft to let its boot loader
recognize and (hopefully) accommodate other operating systems that have been installed previously. This would at least keep them intact instead of being overwritten / rendered unusable when the user inevitably installs Windows, licensed or unlicensed, thus keeping up the possibility that it will get used sometimes, even out of curiosity.
This need not be a major issue if a handy CD is made available that a user simply pops in and restores the GRUB boot loader by simply clicking Yes in a dialog box.
All ths talk of supporting laptops with foss is well and fine, but I wonder how many of many of us would *actually* buy a laptop just because it has FOSS installed in it (i know i wont) because most of these comanies use non MS os just to make cheap laptops even cheaper. Also if i was going to have just one laptop i would rather pay a bit more and buy something which i *know* comes with good and reliable after sales service.
On 2/19/08, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
Nishit Dave wrote:
- Lobby local computer makers like HCL and Zenith to offer an option
for loading Linux or selling systems without a pre-loaded OS (and with a tiny little discount). The pre-installed OS can be on a secondary partition, to allow Windows to be installed on a primary partition at the user's option later. I know, the manufacturers would risk paying the Microsoft Tax (TM) heavily if they tried to do anything like this, but this could at least help bring an unfair practice out into the open.
There are not many FOSS engineers available to service FOSS based computers. It brings to my mind a question for all:-
How much does a FOSS service provider charge to install GNU/Linux on a computer? What would be the annual maintenance cost per year per FOSS based system? Any average figures?
Another problem is that FOSS is ready for the people, but people are not ready for FOSS. Both users as well as programmers/developers. A guy working for one of the biggest software companies in India told me that FOSS programmers are few and too expensive. Windows based pros are available in lots. Software giants that make banking software use things like dot net for banking solutions. How can such software be expected to run on FOSS? Everyone is looking at the economical side of hiring cheaper programmers who are available by the dozen.
- Build up an effort to force Microsoft to let its boot loader
recognize and (hopefully) accommodate other operating systems that have been installed previously. This would at least keep them intact instead of being overwritten / rendered unusable when the user inevitably installs Windows, licensed or unlicensed, thus keeping up the possibility that it will get used sometimes, even out of curiosity.
This need not be a major issue if a handy CD is made available that a user simply pops in and restores the GRUB boot loader by simply clicking Yes in a dialog box.
-- Regards,
Rony.
GNU/Linux ! No Viruses No Spyware Only Freedom.
Hi,
these comanies use non MS os just to make cheap laptops even cheaper.
and why are cheap laptops a problem? I couldnt afford a laptop 2 years ago..now I can..as far as I am concerned cheaper laptops are a good thing..
Also if i was going to have just one laptop i would rather pay a bit more and buy something which i *know* comes with good and reliable after sales service.
If this is with regards to software I dont really understand what do you mean? I bought my laptop with windows vista..my comp kept getting shutdown for no apparent reason with nothing in the logs..can i call MS and they will provide support for free..given that I have already paid extra for this OS??
Puneet Lakhina wrote:
If this is with regards to software I dont really understand what do you mean? I bought my laptop with windows vista..my comp kept getting shutdown for no apparent reason with nothing in the logs..can i call MS and they will provide support for free..given that I have already paid extra for this OS??
Was it a Compaq laptop?
On Feb 20, 2008 11:54 PM, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
Puneet Lakhina wrote:
If this is with regards to software I dont really understand what do you mean? I bought my laptop with windows vista..my comp kept getting shutdown for no apparent reason with nothing in the logs..can i call MS and they will provide support for free..given that I have already paid extra for this OS??
Was it a Compaq laptop?
Nopes..dell..
Puneet Lakhina wrote:
If this is with regards to software I dont really understand what do you mean? I bought my laptop with windows vista..my comp kept getting shutdown for no apparent reason with nothing in the logs..can i call MS and they will provide support for free..given that I have already paid extra for this OS??
Was it a Compaq laptop?
Dear Gaurav,
On Feb 20, 2008 12:09 AM, gaurav chaturvedi gaurav.p.chaturvedi@gmail.com wrote:
All ths talk of supporting laptops with foss is well and fine, but I wonder how many of many of us would *actually* buy a laptop just because it has FOSS installed in it (i know i wont) because most of these comanies use non MS os just to make cheap laptops even cheaper. Also if i was going to have just one laptop i would rather pay a bit more and buy something which i *know* comes with good and reliable after sales service.
I bought an IBM ThinkPad without OS last year. You wouldn't call an IBM ThinkPad cheap laptop? And I saved almost 5 K. :-) I had a choice between Toshiba and IBM. I choose IBM because there are willing to give me laptop without OS. Toshiba insisted I buy with default OS.
Vote with your money!
I installed Ubuntu 6.04 on the laptop and it works for me. I have yet not given to temptation of upgrading to Ubuntu 7.10. :)
With regards,
On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 12:09:31AM +0530, gaurav chaturvedi wrote:
All ths talk of supporting laptops with foss is well and fine, but I wonder how many of many of us would *actually* buy a laptop just because it has FOSS installed in it (i know i wont) because most of
Don't top post. I agree on not buying the cheap stuff. what you need to do is ask for Linux to be preinstalled on the higher end ones (and refuse to buy hardware with Windows preinstalled).
these comanies use non MS os just to make cheap laptops even cheaper. Also if i was going to have just one laptop i would rather pay a bit more and buy something which i *know* comes with good and reliable after sales service.
Good hardware doesn't need much service.
Devdas Bhagat
On Feb 20, 2008 10:54 AM, Devdas Bhagat devdas@dvb.homelinux.org wrote:
what you need to do is ask for Linux to be preinstalled on the higher end ones (and refuse to buy hardware with Windows preinstalled).
Now you're talking my language. Is there anybody out there right now looking to buy a new laptop, who is willing to bite the bullet and ask the vendor to sell him one without an OS and getting a discount for it? We would like to know about your experience, time taken etc.
If it fails, the next step would be to lobby the manufacturer. If Green Peace can force Wipro / HCL etc. to change their polluting ways, why can't we?
On Tue, Feb 19, 2008 at 09:27:31PM +0530, Rony wrote:
Nishit Dave wrote:
- Lobby local computer makers like HCL and Zenith to offer an option
for loading Linux or selling systems without a pre-loaded OS (and with a tiny little discount). The pre-installed OS can be on a secondary partition, to allow Windows to be installed on a primary partition at the user's option later. I know, the manufacturers would risk paying the Microsoft Tax (TM) heavily if they tried to do anything like this, but this could at least help bring an unfair practice out into the open.
There are not many FOSS engineers available to service FOSS based computers. It brings to my mind a question for all:-
Computer servicing needs a technician, not an engineer. Given good hardware, and reasonable maintainance (like installing needed upgrades), Unixy solutions work _very_ well. Given bad hardware, it's just easier to fix Windows temporarily.
How much does a FOSS service provider charge to install GNU/Linux on a computer? What would be the annual maintenance cost per year per FOSS based system? Any average figures?
That would depend on the profile, but you could look at the charges for RedHat as the higher end of the spectrum. Actually, if you keep a few standard hardware profiles, it would be easiest for you to simply keep one machine running and serving up network booting and installation services.
Literally plug the host into the network, power it on, and take it off the network when installation is done. No need to look at the screen, no clicking needed ...
Another problem is that FOSS is ready for the people, but people are not ready for FOSS. Both users as well as programmers/developers. A guy working for one of the biggest software companies in India told me that FOSS programmers are few and too expensive. Windows based pros are
FOSS programmers are exactly as expensive as Windows programmers. Actually, except for those who need to work at the really low end, the skills needed are pretty much the same.
available in lots. Software giants that make banking software use things like dot net for banking solutions. How can such software be expected to run on FOSS? Everyone is looking at the economical side of hiring cheaper programmers who are available by the dozen.
Average programmers are more expensive. It is actually cheaper to hire a few good programmers than to hire a hundred average ones. There is plenty of stuff in the computing management literature about this. (Ref: Facts and fallacies of software engineering - Robert Glass, Peopleware - DeMarco and Lister, The Mythical Man Month - Fred Brooks for example).
Devdas Bhagat
Devdas Bhagat wrote:
On Tue, Feb 19, 2008 at 09:27:31PM +0530, Rony wrote:
There are not many FOSS engineers available to service FOSS based computers. It brings to my mind a question for all:-
Computer servicing needs a technician, not an engineer. Given good hardware, and reasonable maintainance (like installing needed upgrades), Unixy solutions work _very_ well. Given bad hardware, it's just easier to fix Windows temporarily.
Computer maintainence involves a sound knowledge of installed software. Plain hardware is of no use to the customer.
Another problem is that FOSS is ready for the people, but people are not ready for FOSS. Both users as well as programmers/developers. A guy working for one of the biggest software companies in India told me that FOSS programmers are few and too expensive. Windows based pros are
FOSS programmers are exactly as expensive as Windows programmers. Actually, except for those who need to work at the really low end, the skills needed are pretty much the same.
I got the information from a programmer working for a giant Indian software company.
available in lots. Software giants that make banking software use things like dot net for banking solutions. How can such software be expected to run on FOSS? Everyone is looking at the economical side of hiring cheaper programmers who are available by the dozen.
Average programmers are more expensive. It is actually cheaper to hire a few good programmers than to hire a hundred average ones. There is plenty of stuff in the computing management literature about this. (Ref: Facts and fallacies of software engineering - Robert Glass, Peopleware - DeMarco and Lister, The Mythical Man Month - Fred Brooks for example).
Agreed. Since closed platforms are popular, training and learning is concentrated in that area, so getting programmers for that platform is easier.
On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 12:29 AM, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
Devdas Bhagat wrote:
On Tue, Feb 19, 2008 at 09:27:31PM +0530, Rony wrote:
There are not many FOSS engineers available to service FOSS based computers. It brings to my mind a question for all:-
How about community support? Can we all get together and start advertising installation / troubleshooting support for a cup of tea?
Nishit Dave wrote:
On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 12:29 AM, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
Devdas Bhagat wrote:
On Tue, Feb 19, 2008 at 09:27:31PM +0530, Rony wrote:
There are not many FOSS engineers available to service FOSS based
computers. It brings to my mind a question for all:-
How about community support? Can we all get together and start advertising installation / troubleshooting support for a cup of tea?
Those who receive community ( free-of-cost ) support do not have much value for it. A professional approach is necessary or it will end up as demo sessions.
On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 10:46 PM, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
Those who receive community ( free-of-cost ) support do not have much value for it. A professional approach is necessary or it will end up as demo sessions.
Well, I don't know about you, but I value the free support from the community very highly, and hold it in good esteem. If we start to prefer a 'professional' approach, we might be defeating the very purpose of this movement. Let those that have invested the most in FOSS development (read: large companies) charge for supporting it, but when it comes to really doing simple things like installation and minor trouble-shooting, why can't we organize it? Almost all here would agree that they have, at least some of the time, enjoyed setting up Linux on somebody's computer as a matter of proselytizing?
Nishit Dave wrote:
On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 10:46 PM, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
Those who receive community ( free-of-cost ) support do not have much value for it. A professional approach is necessary or it will end up as demo sessions.
Well, I don't know about you, but I value the free support from the community very highly, and hold it in good esteem. If we start to prefer a 'professional' approach, we might be defeating the very purpose of this movement.
What I have observed is that free help is considered a demo. After all your efforts and hard work in installing GNU, the user may simply knock it off after some time or keep using windows in dual boot. Plus there are still some grey areas in linux ( not linux's fault ) for latest hardware. Laptops use latest hardware and keep changing specs every few months so all of it may not get working unless a few months pass and the linux drivers are available. Individually we can manage for some time if a few devices don't work but a general buyer may not be patient.
Let those that have invested the most in FOSS development (read: large companies) charge for supporting it, but when it comes to really doing simple things like installation and minor trouble-shooting, why can't we organize it? Almost all here would agree that they have, at least some of the time, enjoyed setting up Linux on somebody's computer as a matter of proselytizing?
This list is meant to do that.
On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 11:11 PM, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
This list is meant to do that.
..and that is what I feel should be developed further - community-based support in your locality. It sounds like so much idealism, but it is the same idealism that has made the FOSS universe possible.
The other thing to do is to start educating people about the 'goodness of FOSS' when they're young - around high school time. We should also focus on making wine run a larger set of windows software, and much more easily, than it does now.
Nishit Dave wrote:
The other thing to do is to start educating people about the 'goodness of FOSS' when they're young - around high school time.
A good start would be your school where you studied as a kid.
We should also focus on making wine run a larger set of windows software, and much more easily, than it does now.
Wine requires a legal copy of Windows.
On Sunday 24 Feb 2008, Rony wrote:
[snip] Wine requires a legal copy of Windows.
It does? Not to the best of my knowledge.
-- Raju
On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 8:42 PM, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
A good start would be your school where you studied as a kid.
Yeah, good suggestion. Maybe I could go on a vacation, travel overnight and camp there. I am talking about local LUGs taking up the challenge and making it a group effort.
Wine requires a legal copy of Windows.
Is it so? You perhaps meant it is required for Wine developers. Read this: http://wiki.winehq.org/FAQ and http://www.winehq.org/site/myths - read #4 specifically
On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Nishit Dave stargazer.dave@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 8:42 PM, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
A good start would be your school where you studied as a kid.
Yeah, good suggestion. Maybe I could go on a vacation, travel overnight and camp there. I am talking about local LUGs taking up the challenge and making it a group effort.
M$ is also targeting the very same audience,to get them hooked *before* we can wean them away.It was there in a newspaper(IIRC,DNA Tech section,a 2-3 days ago).If we are going to do anything,it's to be fast since M$ is directly approaching the Univs.I'm quoting Billy "to enable us to know what's the next generation of software required"or something thereabouts.
AND IF we are going to do this seriously,we just have to search this list's archives for a draft letter some guys long ago(not so long ago,1999-2000 abouts) wrote which we can present to our respective principals.
Regards, Easwar
Nishit Dave wrote:
On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 8:42 PM, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
Wine requires a legal copy of Windows.
Is it so? You perhaps meant it is required for Wine developers. Read this: http://wiki.winehq.org/FAQ and http://www.winehq.org/site/myths - read #4 specifically
If you use even a single dll or other file from Windows, you need to use a legal copy. If wine runs independently of any dose files then no problem. What I recollect was that it needed a few dll files or would work on an installed windows partition. Maybe wine has come a long way.
On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 9:57 PM, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
Nishit Dave wrote:
On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 8:42 PM, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
Wine requires a legal copy of Windows.
Is it so? You perhaps meant it is required for Wine developers. Read this: http://wiki.winehq.org/FAQ and http://www.winehq.org/site/myths - read #4 specifically
If you use even a single dll or other file from Windows, you need to use a legal copy. If wine runs independently of any dose files then no problem. What I recollect was that it needed a few dll files or would work on an installed windows partition. Maybe wine has come a long way.
It has,it doesn't NEED native dlls but native dll CAN be used(for which as you mentioned,a legal copy of Doze is required)which MIGHT(usually does) improve performance.
Regards, Easwar
On Feb 19, 2008 9:27 PM, Rony gnulinuxist@gmail.com wrote:
Nishit Dave wrote:
- Build up an effort to force Microsoft to let its boot loader
recognize and (hopefully) accommodate other operating systems that have been installed previously. This would at least keep them intact instead of being overwritten / rendered unusable when the user inevitably installs Windows, licensed or unlicensed, thus keeping up the possibility that it will get used sometimes, even out of curiosity.
This need not be a major issue if a handy CD is made available that a user simply pops in and restores the GRUB boot loader by simply clicking Yes in a dialog box.
Typical scenario:
Yooser: "Hey, I've bought this new laptop, and they've given me one with this thing called Lainux installed on it. It's weird and I can't find Word or Excel, or play my games on it."
Geekish fiend: Here, let me install Windows and Office for you. Forget that Lainux. It does not even play mp3s, I've heard. The best things in life are for free.
Typically, it does not even get escalated to the friend. There would be other friendly technicians at some of the vendors willing to help you.
What we really need is a situation where Microsoft would be willing to accept Windows' position as a secondary OS installed at the user's choice. A very difficult point to concede, I accept, but rather than wishing for a miracle solution, I would like to hear what people suggest we can do to move it forward.
Nishit Dave wrote:
Typical scenario:
Yooser: "Hey, I've bought this new laptop, and they've given me one with this thing called Lainux installed on it. It's weird and I can't find Word or Excel, or play my games on it."
Geekish fiend: Here, let me install Windows and Office for you. Forget that Lainux. It does not even play mp3s, I've heard. The best things in life are for free.
A friend of mine had bought a desktop pre-loaded with Vista, but Vista drivers for his Tata FWP were not available so I introduced him to Ubuntu. We had a nice time together and I was at his place for over 6 hours, chatting, loading, gossip and demonstrating. Next morning, in less than 24 hours he called me up to say that after I left, his other tech savvy friend visited him, wiped out the linux and installed xp.
-
Devdas Bhagat -
Dinesh Shah -
Easwar Hariharan -
gaurav chaturvedi -
jtd -
Nishit Dave -
Puneet Lakhina -
Raj Mathur -
Rony -
Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay