Hi,
Is it a cultural issue? Do we need someone to tell us what to do? What are other reasons for not many Indians in the global FOSS scenery? Or are we shy to talk about what we are doing? See Suparna's example, most of us didn't know we had such an important contributor from India who could take Alan Cox's place at FOSS.IN and Alan Cox recognizing that we made the right choice?
We have started this debate at the FOSS.IN panel discussion on Day 2 and BoF the next day.
http://fci.wikia.com/wiki/Challenges This is the page you need to add your comments.
Also there is some discussion going on in ilug-goa now, and you can see the thread here http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ilug-goa/message/14878
Some comments from Sameer Kelekar, http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ilug-goa/message/14880
1) I think the big IT boom in India gives people jobs easily; and when you do a cosy job, you lose half of the motivation. It is a case of innovation being killed due to complacency.
2) As a society, there is a lot of pressure on people to be successful immediately; and success here means making money. This means that if one were to tread the road not taken, one has to withstand the pressure from friends, family, relatives blah blah blah. What adds to this is the lack of knowledge about FOSS and such things among the common folks (read one's parents, relatives etc).
3) The whole atmosphere around is counterproductive to innovation and risk taking. Those who fail are not looked upon well by the Indian society. What matters to the society in India is success; the means does not matter.
3) We also are not trained to think in a creative manner. Succumbing to authority comes more natural to Indians rather than being free and think freely. Of course there are exceptions, but in general as a rule.
We have a list of the Indian Contributers (just starting to collect all names) here http://fci.wikia.com/wiki/Contributors
So if you have contributed please add your name to the list and may be you could explain the motivations that brought to FOSS and the challenges you had to face ... in your page.
Also if you know a person who has contributed please add their name as well.
Regards Praveen
Hi,
My thoughts below:
--- à´ªàµà´°à´µàµà´£àµââ|Praveen pravi.a@gmail.com wrote:
What are other reasons for not many Indians in the global FOSS scenery?
Depends on what you are refering to as "global FOSS scenery".
I see two big communities in India: students and the industry.
1. Students in most institutions (exceptions are IITs, IISc, NITs, et. al.) live in their own shell, without any exposure to the real world or the industry. So, they don't have the technical know-how or skills for any development, let alone FOSS development.
2. Lot of companies in the Indian IT industry use FOSS. They service international clients from US, Europe, Asia, and Australia. Because they sign an NDA, they are not allowed to _name_ the clients. But, yes, there is tremendous contribution to FOSS, from an *industry* perspective.
There is a _huge_ gap between academia and the industry (exceptions are IITs, IISc, NITs, et. al.), so the academia folks have absolutely no idea what the industry is doing. Industry is more focused on servicing international clients, for obvious reasons.
People working in the industry also have a hectic schedule, sometimes working 7 days a week. So, it is very difficult for them to take time out, for their personal FOSS community contributions. There are exceptional people too.
Cheers,
SK
-- Shakthi Kannan http://www.shakthimaan.com
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On 12/10/06, Shakthi Kannan shakthimaan@yahoo.com wrote:
- Lot of companies in the Indian IT industry use
FOSS. They service international clients from US, Europe, Asia, and Australia. Because they sign an NDA, they are not allowed to _name_ the clients. But, yes, there is tremendous contribution to FOSS, from an *industry* perspective.
International clients, yes. But when it comes to local clients, the local clients still believe that if something is free it is obviously not that good. Also, the situation with techies does not improve that greatly in the industry as well. There was little or no exposure to Linux in academia. In the industry there is some exposure to Linux due to some reason or the other, but little or no awareness of FOSS/GPL etc. A guy in my office was shocked when I sent him the source code for lilo. "Where the hell do you get these from man" was his question. I've even had a former colleague (a senior DBA) say to me, "you don't get quality stuff for free now, do you".
People working in the industry also have a hectic schedule, sometimes working 7 days a week. So, it is
Very true. Staying at office more than 8 hours is equated to dedicated. Project plans are drawn up such that we have to spend the nights and weekends at office as well.
Regards,
On 10/12/06 10:13 -0800, Shakthi Kannan wrote:
Hi,
My thoughts below:
--- ???????????????????????????|Praveen pravi.a@gmail.com wrote:
What are other reasons for not many Indians in the global FOSS scenery?
Depends on what you are refering to as "global FOSS scenery".
I see two big communities in India: students and the industry.
- Students in most institutions (exceptions are IITs,
IISc, NITs, et. al.) live in their own shell, without any exposure to the real world or the industry. So, they don't have the technical know-how or skills for any development, let alone FOSS development.
*Shrug*. Anyone who is interested can find out and learn. I know quite a few people who did. Including a whole bunch of people on this list.
It wasn't easy and it wasn't cheap. The payoff is rather high though.
- Lot of companies in the Indian IT industry use
FOSS. They service international clients from US, Europe, Asia, and Australia. Because they sign an NDA, they are not allowed to _name_ the clients. But, yes, there is tremendous contribution to FOSS, from an *industry* perspective.
Are they contributing code back in? Is the code good enough to actually go into version control? Or are they mere users? From what I see on most mailing lists, most Indians have no clue on how to research information, STFW, RTFM, and all that stuff. They merely ask for information on how to get things done, without showing that they have put in an effort in the first place.
Funnily, these questions tend to come from people at $BIGNAME Indian companies.
Can you point me to public codebases where the contribution to FOSS is happening? Particularly by people from the $BIGNAME Indian companies, instead of people employed by multinationals.
There is a _huge_ gap between academia and the industry (exceptions are IITs, IISc, NITs, et. al.), so the academia folks have absolutely no idea what the industry is doing. Industry is more focused on servicing international clients, for obvious reasons.
Academia isn't there as a mere stepping stone to a job. IMHO, academia doesn't cover enough theory for students.
People working in the industry also have a hectic schedule, sometimes working 7 days a week. So, it is very difficult for them to take time out, for their personal FOSS community contributions. There are exceptional people too.
No one says you *have* to work those schedules. Or get it written into your contract that you can put code and/or documentation into the foss world using company resources. These are contracts, not laws. You *can* negotiate.
Devdas Bhagat
Hi Devdas,
--- Devdas Bhagat devdas@dvb.homelinux.org wrote:
They merely ask for information on how to get things done, without showing that they have put in an effort in the first place.
Agreed.
Can you point me to public codebases where the contribution to FOSS is happening? Particularly by people from the $BIGNAME Indian companies, instead of people employed by multinationals.
AFAIK, most of the work is service-based, not product-based. So, work done is internal to the company and involves customization for clients' needs, which is for servicing their clients. So, it is all internal. Releasing it out is not our choice, but the client's decision.
As I said earlier, signing an NDA and SLA doesn't allow you to fully reveal any details. Work that is outsourced is also mostly maintenance, testing, bug fixes etc.; very few core development projects, relatively.
IMHO, academia doesn't cover enough theory for students.
Indeed.
No one says you *have* to work those schedules.
The work is so much that it will keep you occupied, unless one is exceptionally good.
Cheers,
SK
-- Shakthi Kannan http://www.shakthimaan.com
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On 11-Dec-06, at 9:39 AM, Shakthi Kannan wrote:
No one says you *have* to work those schedules.
The work is so much that it will keep you occupied, unless one is exceptionally good.
one could take a year or two off and work for nrc-foss or similar organisations ;-) Then you get paid to code foss 24/7
On 11-Dec-06, at 9:13 AM, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
Depends on what you are refering to as "global FOSS scenery".
I see two big communities in India: students and the industry.
there are three communities in the world contributing to foss - students, employees in industry and the independent entrepreneur. And you will be surprised to see how large a chunk of the community is from the third category. Most of these make a living from writing foss code - and a surprising number of them release the source to their customers. And they are very enthusiastic in contributing back to the community too. Also a very large chunk of them are from non-IT backgrounds. The problem with people from IT backgrounds is that they are afraid that if FOSS becomes mainstream, they would lose their jobs. So they think of it as a time-pass or hobby. I once half jokingly said that the development of FOSS in India is too important to leave in the hands of IT professionals - there is a lot of truth in it.
On Monday 11 December 2006 09:49, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
I once half jokingly said that the development of FOSS in India is too important to leave in the hands of IT professionals - there is a lot of truth in it.
That is an absolute truth. Why on earth would anyone employ VB coders if it werent for that.
On 11-Dec-06, at 9:13 AM, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
- Lot of companies in the Indian IT industry use
FOSS. They service international clients from US, Europe, Asia, and Australia. Because they sign an NDA, they are not allowed to _name_ the clients. But, yes, there is tremendous contribution to FOSS, from an *industry* perspective.
Are they contributing code back in? Is the code good enough to actually go into version control? Or are they mere users?
the vast majority of indian companies that talk of being FOSS companies are mere endusers of foss. Their download pages are permanently 'under construction'. There is no difference between writing proprietary software with foss tools and with proprietary tools.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
Are they contributing code back in? Is the code good enough to actually go into version control? Or are they mere users?
L2C2 {Indranil|Sayamindu} Dasgupta : Koha and DSpace
- --
You see things; and you say 'Why?'; But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?' - George Bernard Shaw
On Monday 11 December 2006 09:13, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
On 10/12/06 10:13 -0800, Shakthi Kannan wrote:
Hi,
My thoughts below:
--- ???????????????????????????|Praveen
pravi.a@gmail.com wrote:
What are other reasons for not many Indians in the global FOSS scenery?
- Lot of companies in the Indian IT industry use
FOSS. They service international clients from US, Europe, Asia, and Australia. Because they sign an NDA, they are not allowed to _name_ the clients. But, yes, there is tremendous contribution to FOSS, from an *industry* perspective.
Funnily, these questions tend to come from people at $BIGNAME Indian companies.
Can you point me to public codebases where the contribution to FOSS is happening? Particularly by people from the $BIGNAME Indian companies, instead of people employed by multinationals.
TCS was the only one. Asterisk afair.
That apart even users are contibutors. since foss is highily effecient in it's usage of resources and fantastic in it's ability to make people productive, by merely using it u are freeing up resources for better usage. Eg power consumption, chewing lesser bandwidth, increasing the "jump distance" for virii, being very aware of the undelying security implications of net usage, forcing adherence to standards etc etc.
On 11/12/06 11:37 +0530, jtd wrote: <snip>
That apart even users are contibutors. since foss is highily effecient in it's usage of resources and fantastic in it's ability to make people productive, by merely using it u are freeing up resources for better usage. Eg power consumption, chewing lesser bandwidth, increasing the "jump distance" for virii, being very aware of the undelying security implications of net usage, forcing adherence to standards etc etc.
That assumes that the end user demands standards compliance. IMO, any user who assumes the responsibility for any stake in FOSS is contributing to it, whether by filing a bug report, providing feedback, writing code, merely answering questions on mailing lists or newsgroups, or by actually paying for products in hard cash.
On the other hand, the people who do not contribute in any way have no standing in the FOSS world, which is a meritocracy.
How many people actually use open document formats over MS Office formats?
Devdas Bhagat
On Monday 11 December 2006 12:53, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
How many people actually use open document formats over MS Office formats?
Quite a large no. even those using M$. Whnever u load Oo.o on a user's machine briefly explain the need for standards and show him the pdf icon for exporting. Also tell him the file is now not easily editable by whomever he is sending it to. From then on 95% of his docs will be exported as pdf. He also quickly notices the missing pdf converter in M$. And sloowly a new awarness seeps in.
On Tuesday 12 December 2006 12:25, jtd wrote:
editable by whomever he is sending it to. From then on 95% of his docs will be exported as pdf. He also quickly notices the missing pdf converter in M$. And sloowly a new awarness seeps in.
Then a friend comes along and shows the aweful loading times that OO.o has, the occasional page alignment mismatch in .doc files and also installs a pirated copy of Adobe distiller which puts a nice shiny PDF converter icon in M$ Word. The person never gives OO.o a second thought...
Point being, piracy has to be controlled to make people use FOSS solutions. But at the same time FOSS solutions should raise their standards.
Does anybody know what SQA activities FOSS have? How are the quality standards defined? What are the metrics?
On Tuesday 12 December 2006 12:47, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Tuesday 12 December 2006 12:25, jtd wrote:
editable by whomever he is sending it to. From then on 95% of his docs will be exported as pdf. He also quickly notices the missing pdf converter in M$. And sloowly a new awarness seeps in.
Then a friend comes along and shows the aweful loading times that OO.o has,
Repeat 10 times - I will always preload. Also on all my "clients" dual boot machines linux loads and works atleast 25% faster.
the occasional page alignment mismatch in .doc files
which was the whole point of exporting as pdf. U have killed the doc monster by exporting as pdf.
and also installs a pirated copy of Adobe distiller which puts a nice shiny PDF converter icon in M$ Word.
Ahh. But questions arise deep within - why pirate? why is it not available by default. why do i have to pay when the reader is free. Isn't someone fleecing me?.
The person never gives OO.o a second thought...
Point being, piracy has to be controlled to make people use FOSS solutions. But at the same time FOSS solutions should raise their standards.
Which again is the point of loading Oo.o
Does anybody know what SQA activities FOSS have? How are the quality standards defined? What are the metrics?
Eyeballs and public review. which is a lot better than most of the prop companies certification games. Eg. sify who cant get a logon correct but have approvals and certifications to fill a godown.
On 12/12/06, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday 12 December 2006 12:25, jtd wrote:
Then a friend comes along and shows the aweful loading times that OO.o has, the occasional page alignment mismatch in .doc files and also installs a pirated copy of Adobe distiller which puts a nice shiny PDF converter icon in M$ Word. The person never gives OO.o a second thought...
oh did I read aweful loading time? I never saw that happening in the recent versions. I think openoffice is pritty fast and stable right now. ubuntu 6.10 comes with one of the best versions. and I wont be surprised if debian 4 (can some one tell me when is it being released?) also ships the same or even a better version. I wont mind even if people use the windows kernel and desktop. I am not saying that switch to linux from day one after I show what crapware windows and its company gives or even for that matter most non-free software gives. but there is no harm in using open office, gimp, and other such tools, isn't it? once we realise the power of these tools, and once we know that they are not some strange "time pass " experiments done by students or "hackers", I don't find any reason to use tools like office. really I am surprised to here that open office is still slow. I was doing a demo of the linux based screen reader in the lug last sunday, and on a 256 mb average machine the spreadsheet and the word processor came up in pritty much the same time as $office would take. and don't forget I was using a screen reader that consumes a lot of resources. so I will request all other people to kindly check the information they post and correct me if I am wrong. regards. Krishnakant.
2006/12/12, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com:
On 12/12/06, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday 12 December 2006 12:25, jtd wrote:
Then a friend comes along and shows the aweful loading times that OO.o has, the occasional page alignment mismatch in .doc files and also installs a pirated copy of Adobe distiller which puts a nice shiny PDF converter icon in M$ Word. The person never gives OO.o a second thought...
oh did I read aweful loading time? I never saw that happening in the recent versions. I think openoffice is pritty fast and stable right now. ubuntu 6.10 comes with one of the best versions. and I wont be surprised if debian 4 (can some one tell me when is it being released?) also ships the same or even a better version. I wont mind even if people use the windows kernel and desktop. I am not saying that switch to linux from day one after I show what crapware windows and its company gives or even for that matter most non-free software gives. but there is no harm in using open office, gimp, and other such tools, isn't it? once we realise the power of these tools, and once we know that they are not some strange "time pass " experiments done by students or "hackers", I don't find any reason to use tools like office. really I am surprised to here that open office is still slow. I was doing a demo of the linux based screen reader in the lug last sunday, and on a 256 mb average machine the spreadsheet and the word processor came up in pritty much the same time as $office would take. and don't forget I was using a screen reader that consumes a lot of resources. so I will request all other people to kindly check the information they post and correct me if I am wrong. regards. Krishnakant.
Hi,
Sorry if you got another mail before this, caused by some wierd keyboard shortcuts.
2006/12/12, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com:
I think openoffice is pritty fast and stable right now. ubuntu 6.10 comes with one of the best versions. and I wont be surprised if debian 4 (can some one tell me when is it being released?) also ships the same or even a better version.
I think ubuntu 6.10 comes with Open Office 2.0.4. Debian 4.0 etch (currently in frozen sate and expected to be released by end of this month - as the debian's policy is "realeased when it is ready") will have the same version. Most of the release goals for Debian 4.0 including linux kernel 2.6.18, new graphical installer, SELinux support, LSB 3.1 compliance ... are in good shape to be released. Also other new changes includes better support for Desktops and laptops (soundcard detection & configuration, battery power ...) and improved co-ordination between various desktop environments (KDE, GNOME and XFCE will follow common default theme) ...
See the freeze announcement http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2006/12/msg00004.html
Regards Praveen
On 12/12/06 12:47 +0530, Dinesh Joshi wrote: <snip>
Does anybody know what SQA activities FOSS have? How are the quality standards defined? What are the metrics?
The metrics are what the contributors want them to be. Heavily arbitrary, but then, it does what I want it to do, the way I want to do it is the core metric. Some projects have public quality standards (GNOME/KDE), others don't (mutt).
For applications implementing open specifications, the reference point is how well the application follows the standard.
Devdas Bhagat
Hi,
On 12/12/06, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
Does anybody know what SQA activities FOSS have? How are the quality standards defined? What are the metrics?
http://scan.coverity.com/ (not free, but it scans a whole load of free software projects, including linux kernel, KDE and GNOME ). I can swear by it because people in KDE are really impressed by its results and have often blogged about it and its fine results since the day we joined it long time back. The output of its analysis is very good. I must say, that their service to the community project is just way to immense. http://www.englishbreakfastnetwork.org/ (KDE specific) http://www.sqo-oss.eu/ ( An EU project with loads of organisation and companies including KDE )
Cheers!
Pradeepto
On Tuesday 12 December 2006 12:25, jtd wrote:
On Monday 11 December 2006 12:53, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
How many people actually use open document formats over MS Office formats?
Quite a large no. even those using M$. Whnever u load Oo.o on a user's machine briefly explain the need for standards and show him the pdf icon for exporting. Also tell him the file is now not easily editable by whomever he is sending it to. From then on 95% of his docs will be exported as pdf. He also quickly notices the missing pdf converter in M$. And sloowly a new awarness seeps in.
Bingo! Happened to a few of my friends.
The only problem now, though, is that M$ Office 2007 kicks ass and most of them have the pirated copies.
hello, I know many schools get free m$ software and also training. they get support for very cheep (throw away ) cost. actually M$ is like a drugg vender who will give some doses of drugg free till a person becomes adicted. that's why I often raise this issue "should people not pay for free software given the quality and standards?" when people (at least a few) can pay for non-free crap ware which gives them no transperency, why should they not pay for some thing which gives them total freedom to do what ever with the copy they buy. for example if one buys a copy of debian gnu/linux and wishes to make copies and install on many computers he is free to do so and that's right. because "I paied for my copy so I have every right to do what ever I want with my copy". infact I feel it is just because many of us loudely banged our desks saying "reduced total ownership cost with foss", m$ has taken this new attitude of giving away free "LICENSED " cd of windows crapware. now when m$ starts to do this many others follow. for example I know a college in asam which has a course on gernalist based curriers. photoshop was given free to them by the respective company. now where does the issue of total ownership goes? so the point should not really be cost. the point should be what you get and what you can do with it. people must realise that gpl gives them every right including copying the cd and installation on various locations. and if there are computer experts in your enterprise, may be even modify the software. so firstly yes, anti piracy rules must be made strict so people will at least come to know how bad these rules are and what amount of restriction it puts on them. and secondly foss community should stop just talking about cost related issues. regards. Krishnakant.
krishnakant Mane wrote: Hi Krish,
when people (at least a few) can pay for non-free crap ware which gives them no transperency, why should they not pay for some thing which gives them total freedom to do what ever with the copy they buy. for example if one buys a copy of debian gnu/linux and wishes to make copies and install on many computers he is free to do so and that's right. because "I paied for my copy so I have every right to do what ever I want with my copy".
If you buy a Debian CD, you are paying for the media, not the software, so you are free to make copies. If you buy an RH Enterprise Linux CD, you cannot make copies and distribute the same.
now where does the issue of total ownership goes? so the point should not really be cost. the point should be what you get and what you can do with it. people must realise that gpl gives them every right including copying the cd and installation on various locations.
People will copy and install linux cds if they work and do what is expected from them. At present they don't.
Could you tell me how many PCs you installed with Ubuntu 6.06 can play VCDs with proper sound? Mine does not even after installing codecs and installing gstreamer plugins. I spent some harrowing days trying different settings, different distros, going to bed at 5 am, spending the whole day on the laptop going through google if any distro was up. Still sound is not available while playing VCDs. No company will do all this for a customer. I will simply advise him to buy a legal copy of Windows XP Home and download the drivers from the Laptop's website.
and if there are computer experts in your enterprise, may be even modify the software.
True.
so firstly yes, anti piracy rules must be made strict so people will at least come to know how bad these rules are and what amount of restriction it puts on them. and secondly foss community should stop just talking about cost related issues.
FOSS companies ( Not individual comtributors ) who make distros should make good distros that work in the user's environment, not their OSS labs. This point should not be confused with proprietary issues as the same distro brands have worked in their earlier versions and lower kernels. Does Ubuntu not realise that people will watch VCDs on their distros? Why, Debian 3.1 worked out of the box and played VCDs with proper sound and video.
Regards,
Rony. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
On 12/14/06, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
distros? Why, Debian 3.1 worked out of the box and played VCDs with proper sound and video.
I'm probably a bit short sighted on this one but I always thought Debian testing to be a lighter, more stable and often more functional Ubuntu. It's just that the word server gets tagged along almost all the time.
You made an excellent point about things working out of the box though. I never actually focussed on actually "using" an XP box to get a feel of it but now that I have to in my office, it seems to be quite a decent system. My impression (assuming that I was a lay user) was that the entire system seems to perform as one whereas with GNU/Linux, it's lots of parts working together (extremely well, might I add). I am not talking about pains like protected mode browsing in IE, the irritating firewall, etc. I'm simply talking about how various basic elements fit in to make a whole.
Desktop installations (goes even for Debain full installs) should try to provide this almost singular interface. Names like 'iceweasel', 'beagle' don't help either. Desktop versions may simply be called 'Internet Browser', 'Search', etc.
We already have a system that's more stable compared to Windows. We simply need to package it even better.
Regards,
On 14/12/06 22:55 +0530, Rony wrote:
krishnakant Mane wrote: Hi Krish,
when people (at least a few) can pay for non-free crap ware which gives them no transperency, why should they not pay for some thing which gives them total freedom to do what ever with the copy they buy. for example if one buys a copy of debian gnu/linux and wishes to make copies and install on many computers he is free to do so and that's right. because "I paied for my copy so I have every right to do what ever I want with my copy".
If you buy a Debian CD, you are paying for the media, not the software, so you are free to make copies. If you buy an RH Enterprise Linux CD, you cannot make copies and distribute the same.
You can make copies. You cannot redistribute because there is material copyrighted to RH which isn't distributable.
You are allowed to take all the RPMS, remove the RH specific stuff and make your own ISOs.
now where does the issue of total ownership goes? so the point should not really be cost. the point should be what you get and what you can do with it. people must realise that gpl gives them every right including copying the cd and installation on various locations.
People will copy and install linux cds if they work and do what is expected from them. At present they don't.
Mine do.
Could you tell me how many PCs you installed with Ubuntu 6.06 can play VCDs with proper sound? Mine does not even after installing codecs and
Mplayer works for me. <snip>
FOSS companies ( Not individual comtributors ) who make distros should make good distros that work in the user's environment, not their OSS labs. This point should not be confused with proprietary issues as the
They do have a list of supported hardware. If you can ensure that the devices are in that list, your applications should work. Don't blame the distro for not supporting the latest and greatest versions of hardware available in the Indian market.
Devdas Bhagat
On Friday 15 December 2006 00:39, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
They do have a list of supported hardware. If you can ensure that the devices are in that list, your applications should work. Don't blame the distro for not supporting the latest and greatest versions of hardware available in the Indian market.
With more hardware bugs than mosquitoes in the air. Not to mention stupid ndas that prevent u from publishing details of the hardware so that others can improve and debug your code.
Did u know that the bios in most machines sets up the hardware to operate at far lower than published performance levels so that it does not crash every few minutes. Ram, PCI irqs and dma. Video subsytems are in a special ditch of their own. You are being sucked into servitude a bit at a time.
Devdas Bhagat wrote:
On 14/12/06 22:55 +0530, Rony wrote:
If you buy a Debian CD, you are paying for the media, not the software, so you are free to make copies. If you buy an RH Enterprise Linux CD, you cannot make copies and distribute the same.
You can make copies. You cannot redistribute because there is material copyrighted to RH which isn't distributable.
Make copies and install them on more machines?
Could you tell me how many PCs you installed with Ubuntu 6.06 can play VCDs with proper sound? Mine does not even after installing codecs and
Mplayer works for me.
Are you able to play VCDs using Mplayer in Kubuntu 6.06?
FOSS companies ( Not individual comtributors ) who make distros should make good distros that work in the user's environment, not their OSS labs. This point should not be confused with proprietary issues as the
They do have a list of supported hardware. If you can ensure that the devices are in that list, your applications should work. Don't blame the distro for not supporting the latest and greatest versions of hardware available in the Indian market.
I have no issues with hardware. Its the software and the way its packaged. I get frustrated due to the inconsistency of installation methods over same distro brands with different versions or across different distros. In the case of Kubuntu 6.06 in the Acer 2428 laptop, all the hardware was detected and I can play open format video as well as audio files from the 'examples' folder. Its the VCDs that don't give any sound. Haven't tried mp3s or dvds. Even VLC player gives alternete clear and broken sounds when playing VCDs.
Regards,
Rony.
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Sometime Today, R cobbled together some glyphs to say:
Are you able to play VCDs using Mplayer in Kubuntu 6.06?
I can play VCDs using mplayer in FreeBSD 4.11, and believe me, if it works on FreeBSD 4.11, it will work on linux.
On 12/15/06, Philip Tellis philip.tellis@gmx.net wrote:
Are you able to play VCDs using Mplayer in Kubuntu 6.06?
I'm able to play VCDs with Debian sarge on Kaffeine. I don't even remember having to do any hanky-panky for it.
Although I personally prefer ripping the entire movie (both discs) on to the disc and then watching without having to change CDs ;-)
Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
On 12/15/06, Philip Tellis philip.tellis@gmx.net wrote:
Are you able to play VCDs using Mplayer in Kubuntu 6.06?
I'm able to play VCDs with Debian sarge on Kaffeine. I don't even remember having to do any hanky-panky for it.
Although I personally prefer ripping the entire movie (both discs) on to the disc and then watching without having to change CDs ;-)
Debian 3.1 was very good and I had posted a report on that called 'Debian 3.1 Rocks'. But it uses older kernels so I am not sure how it will handle wireless through gui. Kubuntu 5.10's 'kwireless' is buggy. Kubuntu 6.06 is very good for wireless.
Regards,
Rony.
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On 12/15/06, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Debian 3.1 was very good and I had posted a report on that called 'Debian 3.1 Rocks'. But it uses older kernels so I am not sure how it will handle wireless through gui. Kubuntu 5.10's 'kwireless' is buggy. Kubuntu 6.06 is very good for wireless.
Point your sources.list to testing/unstable and:
apt-get dist-upgrade -u
I'm on 2.6.18 with unstable. *ubuntu is generally patched up debian unstable (or is it testing?).
Siddhesh PS: Oops on my previous post. I quoted the right comment but the wrong email and author.
Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
Point your sources.list to testing/unstable and:
apt-get dist-upgrade -u
I'm on 2.6.18 with unstable. *ubuntu is generally patched up debian unstable (or is it testing?).
How did you upgrade from kernel 2.6.8 to 2.6.18 through apt? My dvd has kernel 2.4 and 2.6.8 using linux26 at boot prompt. My apt did not have higher kernels.
Regards,
Rony. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
On 12/15/06, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
How did you upgrade from kernel 2.6.8 to 2.6.18 through apt? My dvd has kernel 2.4 and 2.6.8 using linux26 at boot prompt. My apt did not have higher kernels.
apt-get install linux-image-2.6-486 OR apt-get install linux-image-2.6-686
The packages point to the latest 2.6 kernel image.
The installation also updates the grub menu.lst to include the latest kernel. Also note that the older kernel is never removed. So you can always revert if there's a problem.
On 15/12/06, Rony wrote:
How did you upgrade from kernel 2.6.8 to 2.6.18 through apt? My dvd has kernel 2.4 and 2.6.8 using linux26 at boot prompt. My apt did not have higher kernels.
There is another nice way to get this done. You can use Debian's kernel-package to compile a kernel for yourself using pristine kernel sources. In the process, you can choose to include new modules, remove unnecessary ones as well as add some patches. For example, You can add Con Kolivas' patches (for improved desktop performance), suspend2 or bootsplash. This is fun to do in Debian, and generates a deb file which is easy to install and remove.
HTH.
Kumar
On Friday 15 December 2006 23:22, Rony wrote:
Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
Point your sources.list to testing/unstable and:
apt-get dist-upgrade -u
I'm on 2.6.18 with unstable. *ubuntu is generally patched up debian unstable (or is it testing?).
How did you upgrade from kernel 2.6.8 to 2.6.18 through apt? My dvd has kernel 2.4 and 2.6.8 using linux26 at boot prompt. My apt did not have higher kernels.
while installing debian always check the help menus at the start for the kernel flavours and options. typing linux26 at the beginning of install would have installed a patched 2.6.8.1 kernel.
Philip Tellis wrote:
Sometime Today, R cobbled together some glyphs to say:
Are you able to play VCDs using Mplayer in Kubuntu 6.06?
I can play VCDs using mplayer in FreeBSD 4.11, and believe me, if it works on FreeBSD 4.11, it will work on linux.
I have played VCDs in linux, its just that I am having problems in Kubuntu 6.06. :) Before removing it to try other distros, I had downloaded mplayer, xine and whatever else I could see in the adept list but nothing gave sound. Only VLC Player gave sound but distorted. As mentioned earlier, open format files play well out of the box after re-installation.
Regards,
Rony. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
On 15-Dec-06, at 9:38 PM, Philip Tellis wrote:
Are you able to play VCDs using Mplayer in Kubuntu 6.06?
I can play VCDs using mplayer in FreeBSD 4.11, and believe me, if it works on FreeBSD 4.11, it will work on linux.
why?
On 15/12/06 20:30 +0530, Rony wrote:
Devdas Bhagat wrote:
On 14/12/06 22:55 +0530, Rony wrote:
If you buy a Debian CD, you are paying for the media, not the software, so you are free to make copies. If you buy an RH Enterprise Linux CD, you cannot make copies and distribute the same.
You can make copies. You cannot redistribute because there is material copyrighted to RH which isn't distributable.
Make copies and install them on more machines?
Nothing stops you, _as long as you remove the RedHat copyrighted material_. You won't get support, of course. You can always use CentOS.
Could you tell me how many PCs you installed with Ubuntu 6.06 can play VCDs with proper sound? Mine does not even after installing codecs and
Mplayer works for me.
Are you able to play VCDs using Mplayer in Kubuntu 6.06?
I don't use Ubuntu. At the moment, I am a Gentoo user.
<snip>
I have no issues with hardware. Its the software and the way its packaged. I get frustrated due to the inconsistency of installation methods over same distro brands with different versions or across
Inconsistency _across_ versions? apt-get for Debian (clones), yum for the RH derivatives, Yast on SuSE, emerge on Gentoo...
different distros. In the case of Kubuntu 6.06 in the Acer 2428 laptop,
Across distros, yes. But again, why would you want to use so many distros in the first place. Choose a limited, small set to support and support only those?
Devdas Bhagat
all the hardware was detected and I can play open format video as well as audio files from the 'examples' folder. Its the VCDs that don't give any sound. Haven't tried mp3s or dvds. Even VLC player gives alternete clear and broken sounds when playing VCDs.
Hmmm, got any reasonably old non Sony VCDs? Can you try those? I have had issues with a few newer ones (the VCD itself was bad), and I don't trust Sony to do the right thing with media.
Devdas Bhagat
On Saturday 16 December 2006 11:25, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
Hmmm, got any reasonably old non Sony VCDs? Can you try those? I have had issues with a few newer ones (the VCD itself was bad), and I don't trust Sony to do the right thing with media.
Speaking of which my latest Sony DVD writer has a region setting which can be reprogrammed 5 times. After which it will stay stuck on the 5th. Now u have the possibilty of bricking your hardware (particularly with closed drivers) or purchasing your content from the last region.
Devdas Bhagat wrote:
On 15/12/06 20:30 +0530, Rony wrote:
all the hardware was detected and I can play open format video as well as audio files from the 'examples' folder. Its the VCDs that don't give any sound. Haven't tried mp3s or dvds. Even VLC player gives alternete clear and broken sounds when playing VCDs.
Hmmm, got any reasonably old non Sony VCDs? Can you try those? I have had issues with a few newer ones (the VCD itself was bad), and I don't trust Sony to do the right thing with media.
They are non-Sony, Marathi movie CDs.
Regards,
Rony.
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On Thursday 14 December 2006 22:55, Rony wrote:
To get an idea of where the industry should be going
http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/blogs/the_free_computer_can_we_do_it
Do read the comments and follow the links in there.
Particularly for the project challenged. Can u imagine the strength of a link to opencores.org with your project / contributions to some project in your resumes?.
jtd wrote:
On Thursday 14 December 2006 22:55, Rony wrote:
To get an idea of where the industry should be going
http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/blogs/the_free_computer_can_we_do_it
Do read the comments and follow the links in there.
Particularly for the project challenged. Can u imagine the strength of a link to opencores.org with your project / contributions to some project in your resumes?.
I feel that hardware is not much of an issue in linux anymore, atleast for new kernels and distros. What I find strange is the way different distros of the same brand work on the same machine. I have used Fedora 3, 4 and 5 on my system but on installing Fedora 6, after the first installation reboot, the X crashed and put me into command line. It has the option to re-detect and create a new xorg.conf file but it could not recognize my PC hardware. What I get upset about is that instead of becoming better, it gets worse on some fronts. I must add that Fedora 6 is loaded with some nice packages like Festival and Orca but whats the use? It installed on the laptop but not before crashing during installation once. The media check is giving no errors. These are just some samples of how frustrating it gets.
Kubuntu 6.06 is most suited for the Acer 2428 laptop but Ubuntu 6.10 live gives a gnome crash error on run but still loads the desktop very slowly. However on clicking 'Install' it just shows non-stop HDD activity and does nothing. The lappy has to be forced shut-down. The same CD works and installs very fast on my PC which is older than the laptop and I am currently using this system. In both cases the distros come from the same company. Again, in Kubuntu 5.10, I was able to play VCDs after installing win32 codecs.
I can understand new hardware not getting detected but why so much difference in the same distro brand on already known hardware?
Regards,
Rony.
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hi Roni, problem in windows = no choice and mercy of bil gates. problem in one linux distro = another distro. remember there is monopoly and no transperent deals with windows. and if your sound etc. works out of the box in debian, then who is going to hang you for not using ubuntu? if debian suits you go ahead. and just wait for the debian 4 release, and find the installer the easiest thing in this world. I don't have problem with ubuntu 6.06.1 but may be you have and I don't deny that. infact even I am waiting for orca to become completely stable and thus gnome desktop and related applications completely accessible, but I don't grumble about it. if I am a programmer, I contribute in the development, and if the need is that urgent then I will hire a programming to do the job if I am a lay user. again the issue comes of cost. linux gives you complete freedom to do what ever you want with your copny wich windows crapware does not give. so I may as well pay for getting my job done and no m$ or their likes can come and catch me for "derivative work". this is the best thing in linux. so never grumble but either wait or pay. the system will do what you want.. and as you rightly said, people will pay for some system if it does what they want. so pay for getting what you want and still linux cd can be downloaded for free don't forget. Krishnakant.
krishnakant Mane wrote:
hi Roni, problem in windows = no choice and mercy of bil gates. problem in one linux distro = another distro. remember there is monopoly and no transperent deals with windows. and if your sound etc. works out of the box in debian, then who is going to hang you for not using ubuntu? if debian suits you go ahead. and just wait for the debian 4 release, and find the installer the easiest thing in this world. I don't have problem with ubuntu 6.06.1 but may be you have and I don't deny that. infact even I am waiting for orca to become completely stable and thus gnome desktop and related applications completely accessible, but I don't grumble about it. if I am a programmer, I contribute in the development, and if the need is that urgent then I will hire a programming to do the job if I am a lay user. again the issue comes of cost. linux gives you complete freedom to do what ever you want with your copny wich windows crapware does not give. so I may as well pay for getting my job done and no m$ or their likes can come and catch me for "derivative work". this is the best thing in linux. so never grumble but either wait or pay. the system will do what you want.. and as you rightly said, people will pay for some system if it does what they want. so pay for getting what you want and still linux cd can be downloaded for free don't forget.
I paid for my P4's Win XP pro Rs. 6,700/-. In my older machine, I paid for my Win Me full pack Rs. 5,250/-. All this in spite of not being well off. In order to convince my customers to use legal software, I practiced it first to see if I could do it before expecting it from them.
Did you play VCDs in Kubuntu 6.06 or Ubuntu 6.06?
Regards,
Rony. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
On 12/15/06, krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
problem in windows = no choice and mercy of bil gates. problem in one linux distro = another distro.
A slight correction. Problem with any linux distro = revert to the pirated win2k/xp
remember there is monopoly and no transperent deals with windows.
Users, especially in India don't care about it. Infact, monopoly is seen as "You see, they're THAT good!"
if I am a programmer, I contribute in the development, and if the need is that urgent then I will hire a programming to do the job if I am a lay user.
As a programmer (at heart) I would love to have a choice of being able to thinker with the source code of the program. But when I'm using a tool to get work done I expect it to simply work. And for a normal user the thought of programming simply doesn't come up. If it doesn't work then it's broken and nothing can fix it. Where's that Windows that I'm used to. Atleast I can get things to work by doing a Ctrl+Alt+Del and restarting.
again the issue comes of cost. linux gives you complete freedom to do what ever you want with your copny wich windows crapware does not give.
Users do not care about that freedom. Some programmers do, but that too not all the time.
Regards,
Kubuntu 6.06 is most suited for the Acer 2428 laptop but Ubuntu 6.10 live gives a gnome crash error on run but still loads the desktop very slowly. However on clicking 'Install' it just shows non-stop HDD activity and does nothing. The lappy has to be forced shut-down. The same CD works and installs very fast on my PC which is older than the laptop and I am currently using this system. In both cases the distros come from the same company. Again, in Kubuntu 5.10, I was able to play VCDs after installing win32 codecs.
Did you make a swap partition before loading the live CD?? It makes the whole process a hell lost faster! Maybe your PC has a swap partition from a previous linux install.
Sachin Nambiar wrote:
Kubuntu 6.06 is most suited for the Acer 2428 laptop but Ubuntu 6.10 live gives a gnome crash error on run but still loads the desktop very slowly. However on clicking 'Install' it just shows non-stop HDD activity and does nothing. The lappy has to be forced shut-down.
Did you make a swap partition before loading the live CD?? It makes the whole process a hell lost faster! Maybe your PC has a swap partition from a previous linux install.
Yes. And to make things faster I made a 1024 Mb swap for 256 Mb RAM.
Regards,
Rony.
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On Thursday 14 December 2006 22:55, Rony wrote:
People will copy and install linux cds if they work and do what is expected from them. At present they don't.
Could you tell me how many PCs you installed with Ubuntu 6.06 can play VCDs with proper sound?
And while we are clobbering nothing in particular here is a link for a possible business for u
http://www.debian.org/distrib/pre-installed
jtd wrote:
On Thursday 14 December 2006 22:55, Rony wrote:
People will copy and install linux cds if they work and do what is expected from them. At present they don't.
Could you tell me how many PCs you installed with Ubuntu 6.06 can play VCDs with proper sound?
And while we are clobbering nothing in particular here is a link for a possible business for u
I was planning to write to Acer and send them a Kubuntu 6.06 CD with instructions on how to install it so that they don't have to make stupid claims of linux having 'limitted functionality'. But my own system is not fully up yet.
Regards,
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On Friday 15 December 2006 21:12, Rony wrote:
jtd wrote:
And while we are clobbering nothing in particular here is a link for a possible business for u
I was planning to write to Acer and send them a Kubuntu 6.06 CD with instructions on how to install it so that they don't have to make stupid claims of linux having 'limitted functionality'. But my own system is not fully up yet.
U think Acer tech cant read or use google? Instead why not buy acer's / equviv chinese stuff install debian and sell. It might require some effort initially but subsequent installs are a breeze.
Regarding sound u have not installed some module or lib. Eg if u use alsa u need esd-alsa for using several progs that use esd libs. Selecting one may not neccessarily select the other.
Strange how i never have a problem with any hardware (except trashy closed video drivers).
On Saturday 16 December 2006 11:18, jtd wrote:
U think Acer tech cant read or use google? Instead why not buy acer's / equviv chinese stuff install debian and sell. It might require some effort initially but subsequent installs are a breeze.
Regarding sound u have not installed some module or lib. Eg if u use alsa u need esd-alsa for using several progs that use esd libs. Selecting one may not neccessarily select the other.
Just a passing thought, most of these laptops work nicely with bleeding edge distros such as Fedora, Ubuntu, Mandriva etc... But they require some fine tuning at times. Why not make new / modded distros adapted specifically for certain brand / line of laptops? The only difference between the original distro and the modded one will be ( possible ) inclusion of firmware ( which generally Ubuntu comes with but not Fedora ) and scripts to automate the fine tuning the process.
Alternatively, we can just provide a small "tune up" app ( for his particular distro and model of the laptop ) which the user can run after installing his distro and the app can fine tune the distro so that everything works smoothly.
The app will probably setup the wifi drivers and security ( WEP / WPA ) parameters, install the right Xorg drivers, configure the special laptop keys, configure modelines if needed etc...
Obviously we will need enthusiasts to provide us the inputs and for testing it on their machines!
Is there a project in existence which does the above?
On Friday 15 December 2006 21:12, Rony wrote:
U think Acer tech cant read or use google? Instead why not buy acer's / equviv chinese stuff install debian and sell. It might require some effort initially but subsequent installs are a breeze.
Acer! it is a big pain in the ass (roni very well knows why I say this). any ways why blaim linux for this? it it were windows it is ok to blaim because they have taken the control and if some thing is wront it is only m$'s falt. but linux means freedom so if you feel some thing is needed you can do any of the 3 things 1. if you are a good programmer, hack the kernel and write some thing new. 2. if you are not and still want it, hire a person to do it (like me) *smile* 3. search the web with some patience and you will find the result is positive. any ways I am having a lot of problems with acer and it is some thing to do with display itself. I am doing a mass installation for a gnu/linux awareness campain with a workshop these days.
Regarding sound u have not installed some module or lib. Eg if u use alsa u need esd-alsa for using several progs that use esd libs. Selecting one may not neccessarily select the other.
quite possible, I think I had worked around this problem some time back in a similar fassion. it was fedora core 4 with this problem on some IBM laptop.
Strange how i never have a problem with any hardware (except trashy closed video drivers).
strange indeed. even I never face other problems except display related once but it is frustrating never the less. as a note to bring this thread back on track, today I had extencive discussions with a lady related to media who herself will be turning her office computers totally into gnu/linux. she told me about 5 real stories which are very sad and will surely make people like me and jtd furious with anger. the moral was that "linux is an absolutely stupid system and the concept of free software is either fake or senceless or both." the people who were asked by some IT experts to go for gnu/linux for their organisations with the view of reducing cost and increasing quality just refused the idea saying "we can't put our data on stake for some stupid student from some college who thinks that he will bring the all mighty bil gates on the flore." they all claimed that linux is just a study tool and a "insect " to cause irritation and is born out of jullecy against the greatest man ever in the computer world, Bil gaits. I am putting these thoughts exactly as they have come to me.. there is one NGO which runs 17 schools in India. when they were asked to evaluate gnu/linux the response was "oh we can't gamble with our security, linux is so un standard and has no question of ever becoming a usable program let alone a stable system. don't give us an advice like an over inthuziastic student who just wants to prove that he is different." the general response was linux is just a toy os and is the most dirty thing to have on computer. if microsoft is doing such a good service to you why should one damage their computers with some unstable untested and non-standard software which microsoft has warned not to use? if any of you want to know the person who told me this sad story then contact me off the list. but when saying all this she was equally concerned and disappointed about it just like I was. for a monent I thought to myself "what an irony, the biggest spyware on a computer called windows is itself the most non-standard OS and look who is talking?" can some one tell me for example how I can open a word 95 file in m$ office 2003? I can do it in openoffice. can some one give me reason why my screen reader can't run on windows 98. older versions did? Krishnakant.
--- krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
Acer! it is a big pain in the ass (roni very well knows why I say this).
Luckily my Acer is working fine except for sound in VCDs. I was rumaging through my CDs for tomorrow and found a dvd with 2 Slackware 10.2 ISOs. I burned them and tried out the installation in my PC for practice and it loaded smoothly. I used the default 2.4.31 kernel and sound and video is up. VCDs played with sound. Sound was initially at minimum volume but I got it through kmix.
This distro also has a testing kernel 2.6.13 and if nothing works tomorrow, I will use this.
Regards,
Rony.
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On 12/18/06, Rony Bill ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Luckily my Acer is working fine except for sound in VCDs.
Did you try playing with the "CD" and "Video" controls in aumix?
. farazs
On Monday 18 December 2006 01:32, Rony Bill wrote:
--- krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
Acer! it is a big pain in the ass (roni very well knows why I say this).
Luckily my Acer is working fine except for sound in VCDs. I was rumaging through my CDs for tomorrow and found a dvd with 2 Slackware 10.2 ISOs. I burned them and tried out the installation in my PC for practice and it loaded smoothly. I used the default 2.4.31 kernel and sound and video is up. VCDs played with sound. Sound was initially at minimum volume but I got it through kmix.
Ok your problem is definetly esd. Kubuntu uses alsa. U have too load esd-alsa (or alsa-esd). with mplayer, xmms and several others u may have to select the appropriate plugin. U might also have to make a link from /dev/dsp0 to /dev/adsp0. If kmix runs on kubuntu, it's only the output plugins that need to be selected.
This distro also has a testing kernel 2.6.13 and if nothing works tomorrow, I will use this.
Why not stick to debian. with the latest hardware u will at best require a newer kernel. I use 2.6.17-3 and all my hardware works like a charm.
jtd wrote:
On Monday 18 December 2006 01:32, Rony Bill wrote:
--- krishnakant Mane researchbase@gmail.com wrote:
Acer! it is a big pain in the ass (roni very well knows why I say this).
Luckily my Acer is working fine except for sound in VCDs. I was rumaging through my CDs for tomorrow and found a dvd with 2 Slackware 10.2 ISOs. I burned them and tried out the installation in my PC for practice and it loaded smoothly. I used the default 2.4.31 kernel and sound and video is up. VCDs played with sound. Sound was initially at minimum volume but I got it through kmix.
Ok your problem is definetly esd. Kubuntu uses alsa. U have too load esd-alsa (or alsa-esd). with mplayer, xmms and several others u may have to select the appropriate plugin. U might also have to make a link from /dev/dsp0 to /dev/adsp0. If kmix runs on kubuntu, it's only the output plugins that need to be selected.
Sorry to cause this mix up of information.
The Slackware CDs were tried on my P4 system just for practice in case they were needed to be installed at the FOSS camp that Krish was organizing with his team, for an NGO. I was to visit the next day as they were facing problems.
It was there that 4 out of 6 laptops were refusing to load linux. Of those 2 were the same model as my Acer 2428 and 2 were HP. I loaded linux in 3 of the 4 stubborn ones but the last one an HP with a silly 'Intel Core Solo' logo could load only FC5 but that too got stuck on reboot. I had to come back home for the night so could not stay there with the campers. :(
This distro also has a testing kernel 2.6.13 and if nothing works tomorrow, I will use this.
Why not stick to debian. with the latest hardware u will at best require a newer kernel. I use 2.6.17-3 and all my hardware works like a charm.
I am definitely looking forward to Debian 4 once its released. :)
Regards,
Rony.
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Rony wrote:
I loaded linux in 3 of the 4 stubborn ones but the last one an HP with a silly 'Intel Core Solo' logo could load only FC5 but that too got stuck on reboot. I had to come back home for the night so could not stay there with the campers. :(
I just got news that the FC% machine booted properly after it was shut down. So all the machines got linux.
Regards,
Rony.
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if you want a short answer then here it is. "perfect job = government job and perfect computer means computer with windows". just as the indians believe that government job is the most perfect job and some thing well respected, they also believe that windows is the only operating system. ask 10 people about linux 4 will ask "what's that?" and 4 may perhaps say "well that is a very difficult thing and just used by students as either time pass or just to learn unix commands because it is in there college book so what to do". this is the situation. and yes success here means money so "why should I use linux? why should I give my source code under gpl?" the only technology that could break the dirty shackels of microsoft is java. again because there is huge money and big jobs in java as far as indian IT Industry is concerned. ask the programmers around you "do you know python and do you use zope?" again 7 out of 10 will say "python is a snake and in marathi zope means going to bed ". so the problem lies in excepting the long root of truth and reality. people in india think that good things can only happen in dreams and revolution is some thing for the leaders for doing politics. why should I leave the so called "WELL TESTED AND PERFECT WINDOWS " and take up what you call as "VIRUS FREE STABLE AND PERFECT SYSTEM THAT TO WITHOUT PAYING ANY THING?" people here believe that inovation is nothing but a hobby and waist of money and time.
even I am struggling on my way after I changed my business to free software. but I am earning some profits now and getting huge satisfaction and now I am more inovative. thanks, Krishnakant.
On 10-Dec-06, at 10:36 PM, പ്രവീണ്|Praveen wrote:
We have a list of the Indian Contributers (just starting to collect all names) here http://fci.wikia.com/wiki/Contributors
would be nice if it is specified somewhere *who* is running this wiki
2006/12/11, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org:
names) here http://fci.wikia.com/wiki/Contributors
would be nice if it is specified somewhere *who* is running this wiki
If you mean who registered the wiki, I did it. Other than that there is no single person or group controlling/running it. It is meant to connect various user groups and communities and track indian foss contributions/events.... anything related to foss. The wiki contributors run it. It also used for coordinating some of the localisation efforts.
Cheers Praveen
On 11-Dec-06, at 12:05 PM, പ്രവീണ്|Praveen wrote:
If you mean who registered the wiki, I did it. Other than that there is no single person or group controlling/running it. It is meant to connect various user groups and communities and track indian foss contributions/events.... anything related to foss. The wiki contributors run it. It also used for coordinating some of the localisation efforts.
put an 'about' page or a contact us page with at least two names on it - makes everyone more comfortable.
2006/12/11, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org:
On 11-Dec-06, at 12:05 PM, പ്രവീണ്|Praveen wrote:
put an 'about' page or a contact us page with at least two names on it - makes everyone more comfortable.
Done the about page, http://fci.wikia.com/wiki/About I don't think contact us page makes any sense. It is intended to act similar to a DNS server where you get the address by name - here you get mailing list and other details if you know the name say Mumbai just go to http://fci.wikia.com/wiki/Mumbai and know whom you can contact.
See a list of communities http://fci.wikia.com/wiki/Communities
Cheers Praveen
On 10/12/06 22:36 +0530, ???????????????????????????|Praveen wrote:
Hi,
Is it a cultural issue? Do we need someone to tell us what to do? What are other reasons for not many Indians in the global FOSS scenery? Or are we shy to talk about what we are doing? See Suparna's example, most of us didn't know we had such an important contributor from India who could take Alan Cox's place at FOSS.IN and Alan Cox recognizing that we made the right choice?
Connectivity. Contributing to FOSS in terms of code does require decent connectivity.
We have started this debate at the FOSS.IN panel discussion on Day 2 and BoF the next day.
http://fci.wikia.com/wiki/Challenges This is the page you need to add your comments.
Also there is some discussion going on in ilug-goa now, and you can see the thread here http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ilug-goa/message/14878
Some comments from Sameer Kelekar, http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ilug-goa/message/14880
- I think the big IT boom in India gives people
jobs easily; and when you do a cosy job, you lose half of the motivation. It is a case of innovation being killed due to complacency.
This is pretty much an irrelevant factor.
- As a society, there is a lot of pressure on people to
be successful immediately; and success here means making money. This means that if one were to tread the road not taken, one has to withstand the pressure from friends, family, relatives blah blah blah. What adds to this is the lack of knowledge about FOSS and such things among the common folks (read one's parents, relatives etc).
Also, the tendency of people to go in for big brand name companies rather than smaller ones. FOSS contributions come after you have satisfied your basic need for food and housing and material goods. Electronic toys are still more expensive in India in terms of PPP.
Connectivity to the Internet, even more so.
- The whole atmosphere around is counterproductive to innovation
and risk taking. Those who fail are not looked upon well by the Indian society. What matters to the society in India is success; the means does not matter.
This has to do with enterpreneurship, not necessairly FOSS. Nothing stops you from writing code (or documentation) in your off hours and contributing it back.
- We also are not trained to think in a creative manner. Succumbing
to authority comes more natural to Indians rather than being free and think freely. Of course there are exceptions, but in general as a rule.
That does require fixing, and the first rule of FOSS is that you need to volunteer. No one is going to tell you what to do.
Devdas Bhagat
On 11-Dec-06, at 8:59 AM, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
Hi,
Is it a cultural issue? Do we need someone to tell us what to do? What are other reasons for not many Indians in the global FOSS scenery? Or are we shy to talk about what we are doing? See Suparna's example, most of us didn't know we had such an important contributor from India who could take Alan Cox's place at FOSS.IN and Alan Cox recognizing that we made the right choice?
Connectivity. Contributing to FOSS in terms of code does require decent connectivity.
no no no. I know projects that have used email to develop. Biju Chacko made major contributions to XFCE on slow diallup. Bad connectivity makes things more difficult and time consuming, but if you want to do it, you will do it.
On 11/12/06 11:26 +0530, Philip Tellis wrote:
Sometime Today, Devdas Bhagat assembled some asciibets to say:
Connectivity. Contributing to FOSS in terms of code does require decent connectivity.
nonsense. it never stopped me and all I had was a VSNL student account. If you have any connectivity at all, that's sufficient.
Which was decent for those days. How many people here are dealing with metered downloads? Personally, I still would take dialup over a metered download (even the per minute billing is cheaper than the per MB stuff).
Devdas Bhagat
On Sun, Dec 10, 2006 at 10:36:41PM +0530, ???????????????????????????|Praveen wrote:
Hi,
Is it a cultural issue? Do we need someone to tell us what to do? What are other reasons for not many Indians in the global FOSS scenery?
Piracy plays a major role here in India. People prefer hiring and copying pirated CDs of movies, songs etc. The same thing holds for Windoze as well. I believe awareness about FOSS will increase the moment people are made to pay for their copies of proprietary software.
Regards, Aparna.
On 12/11/06, Aparna Appaiah aparna.appaiah@gmail.com wrote:
Piracy plays a major role here in India. People prefer hiring and copying pirated CDs of movies, songs etc. The same thing holds for Windoze as well. I believe awareness about FOSS will increase the moment people are made to pay for their copies of proprietary software.
The situation is actually quite ironic in this case. IT guys in India would not think twice before installing a pirated copy of Windows/Office, etc. But when it comes to their own software they want a price for it. The mere thought of giving away code sounds illogical as 'how the hell will you earn your bucks then?'
It can all be put into one phrase, very simple but perfectly apt -- gross ignorance.
Regards,
On 11/12/06, Aparna Appaiah aparna.appaiah@gmail.com wrote:
Piracy plays a major role here in India. People prefer hiring and copying pirated CDs of movies, songs etc. The same thing holds for Windoze as well. I believe awareness about FOSS will increase the moment people are made to pay for their copies of proprietary software.
dear aparna, I entirely agree with you but I just have an extention to this which slightly differs from your point of view. you say that people will realise the value of foss when they are made to pay for the non-free softwrae. right, well said! but why should people not pay for free software? I think free software must be charged quite well. firstly consider the following statement: "on 15th August 1947, India became free". does that mean that from that date, we get every thing in india without paying money? mukt or muft main farak hain. secondly, some gentelman on this thread I believe said that indians think that when some thing is offered for free, it has some thing wrong with it or is low on quality. sidesh was that you? I think it is perfectly right. so while people must realise that non-free softwares cost huge amount, they should also realise that free software must also be paied for although no one is forcing. it is the duty of programmers like me to charge for such software. and why not, more often than not free software is transparent and also of better quality and then if you aught to pay for some thing that takes away your freedom and give you all crap ware (e.g. windows), one should realise that free software developers also have a stomach to be filled. Krishnakant.
On Mon, Dec 11, 2006 at 11:09:30PM +0530, krishnakant Mane wrote:
dear aparna, I entirely agree with you but I just have an extention to this which slightly differs from your point of view. you say that people will realise the value of foss when they are made to pay for the non-free softwrae. right, well said! but why should people not pay for free software? I think free software must be charged quite well.
It is true that people can (and should) pay for services related to free software. I wanted to emphasise the fact that people do not have respect for copyright. So, using pirated software does not seem to affect their conscience.
Regards, Aparna.
On 12-Dec-06, at 3:20 PM, Aparna Appaiah wrote:
people not pay for free software? I think free software must be charged quite well.
It is true that people can (and should) pay for services related to free software. I wanted to emphasise the fact that people do not have respect for copyright. So, using pirated software does not seem to affect their conscience.
the same people have a hell of a respect for copyright when they own the copyright
On Tuesday 12 December 2006 15:20, Aparna Appaiah wrote:
It is true that people can (and should) pay for services related to free software. I wanted to emphasise the fact that people do not have
Aparna, people are ready to pay provided the cost is reasonable. Last I checked M$ charged 14000-18000 INR for their M$ office. Who in their right minds would afford it? The casual home user definitely wont! :P This is the root cause for piracy... People are/will use FOSS as long as it doesn't cost them a pretty penny ( reasonable cost is ok ) and gets their work done. The moment you start charging a whole lot for your software ( maybe it proprietary code or FOSS solution ), the same people will start "pirating" it ;)
On Tuesday 12 December 2006 17:26, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Tuesday 12 December 2006 15:20, Aparna Appaiah wrote:
It is true that people can (and should) pay for services related to free software. I wanted to emphasise the fact that people do not have
Aparna, people are ready to pay provided the cost is reasonable. Last I checked M$ charged 14000-18000 INR for their M$ office. Who in their right minds would afford it? The casual home user definitely wont! :P This is the root cause for piracy...
Aww..pleease cut out the rosy romantic hero robbing to provide for his ailing mom and marriageable sis. The above implies affordability which translates to disposable income. Most owners of PCs would fall into middle or uppermiddle class - disposable income >>20K per annum. Which would mean that even M$ stuff is affordable. And most of the pirates are not home users but edu institutions, sme's, banks, corporates and wealthy individuals with multiple pcs whose disposable incomes / capital investements are orders of magnitude more than the cost of the entire IT setup!!.
People are/will use FOSS as long as it doesn't cost them a pretty penny ( reasonable cost is ok ) and gets their work done. The moment you start charging a whole lot for your software ( maybe it proprietary code or FOSS solution ), the same people will start "pirating" it ;)
If there is no big stick, there is no compliance when it comes to costs. Even in the case of FOSS (near zero costs to the guilty), coporates with cash to burn did not comply until whacked with a legal clu stick.
jtd wrote:
On Tuesday 12 December 2006 17:26, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
Aparna, people are ready to pay provided the cost is reasonable. Last I checked M$ charged 14000-18000 INR for their M$ office. Who in their right minds would afford it? The casual home user definitely wont! :P This is the root cause for piracy...
And most of the pirates are not home users but edu institutions, sme's, banks, corporates and wealthy individuals with multiple pcs whose disposable incomes / capital investements are orders of magnitude more than the cost of the entire IT setup!!.
Very true. I had more success convincing middle class homes to buy a legal OS and use OO and other freeware.
People are/will use FOSS as long as it doesn't cost them a pretty penny ( reasonable cost is ok ) and gets their work done. The moment you start charging a whole lot for your software ( maybe it proprietary code or FOSS solution ), the same people will start "pirating" it ;)
If there is no big stick, there is no compliance when it comes to costs. Even in the case of FOSS (near zero costs to the guilty), coporates with cash to burn did not comply until whacked with a legal clu stick.
Even out of the FOSS world there is a lot of freeware (no-freedom, no-charge) available as alternative software.
Regards,
Rony.
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On Wednesday 13 December 2006 22:57, Rony wrote:
jtd wrote:
On Tuesday 12 December 2006 17:26, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
Aparna, people are ready to pay provided the cost is reasonable. Last I checked M$ charged 14000-18000 INR for their M$ office. Who in their right minds would afford it? The casual home user definitely wont! :P This is the root cause for piracy...
And most of the pirates are not home users but edu institutions, sme's, banks, corporates and wealthy individuals with multiple pcs whose disposable incomes / capital investements are orders of magnitude more than the cost of the entire IT setup!!.
Very true. I had more success convincing middle class homes to buy a legal OS and use OO and other freeware.
People are/will use FOSS as long as it doesn't cost them a pretty penny ( reasonable cost is ok ) and gets their work done. The moment you start charging a whole lot for your software ( maybe it proprietary code or FOSS solution ), the same people will start "pirating" it ;)
If there is no big stick, there is no compliance when it comes to costs. Even in the case of FOSS (near zero costs to the guilty), coporates with cash to burn did not comply until whacked with a legal clu stick.
Even out of the FOSS world there is a lot of freeware (no-freedom, no-charge) available as alternative software.
True. However most of these send out info. This is mostly unknown to the user, until he is put behind a restricted proxy. On a freshly proxied setup in a winblows shop unknown transmits are on the avg 40% of the total. Besides the usual continuation of bondage etc. Any software which does not show the code, paid or not, can never be trusted. That includes gems like symantec, mcafee, Nviia, ATI, Intel etc.
jtd wrote:
On Wednesday 13 December 2006 22:57, Rony wrote:
Even out of the FOSS world there is a lot of freeware (no-freedom, no-charge) available as alternative software.
True. However most of these send out info. This is mostly unknown to the user, until he is put behind a restricted proxy. On a freshly proxied setup in a winblows shop unknown transmits are on the avg 40% of the total.
The freeware I download is first tested in my system under an interactive firewall. After disabling automatic updates, if it still tries to access the net, its dumped. I also read user reviews before downloading.
Regards,
Rony.
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On Thursday 14 December 2006 22:17, Rony wrote:
True. However most of these send out info. This is mostly unknown to the user, until he is put behind a restricted proxy. On a freshly proxied setup in a winblows shop unknown transmits are on the avg 40% of the total.
The freeware I download is first tested in my system under an interactive firewall. After disabling automatic updates, if it still tries to access the net, its dumped. I also read user reviews before downloading.
Good practice - within the constraints u have to operate ;-).
On Monday 11 December 2006 15:21, Aparna Appaiah wrote:
On Sun, Dec 10, 2006 at 10:36:41PM
+0530, ???????????????????????????|Praveen wrote:
Hi,
Is it a cultural issue? Do we need someone to tell us what to do? What are other reasons for not many Indians in the global FOSS scenery?
Piracy plays a major role here in India. People prefer hiring and copying pirated CDs of movies, songs etc.
dont confuse software and content. The two are completely different. And much as the music industry would love to label consumers as crooks, they are in fact forcing consumers to become so. A few months ago my wife purchased a cd of "original" beatles. There were a few originals (i have cassetes of some of these) and the rest were remixes. Most cd compilations of music will be 80% full of crap. In effect u are paying through your nose to subsidise the music industry's inability to come up with viable business models. Then there is the case of public performance, radio broadcasts. etc etc.
The same thing holds for Windoze as well. I believe awareness about FOSS will increase the moment people are made to pay for their copies of proprietary software.
Wish granted. Install vista.
-
Aparna Appaiah -
Devdas Bhagat -
Dinesh Joshi -
Faraz Shahbazker -
jtd -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
krishnakant Mane -
Kumar Appaiah -
Mrugesh Karnik -
Philip Tellis -
Pradeepto Bhattacharya -
Rony -
Rony Bill
-
Sachin Nambiar -
Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay -
Shakthi Kannan -
Siddhesh Poyarekar -
പ്രവീണ്|Praveen