At 10:46 AM 7/11/2009, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 4:22 AM, Mani Aa.mani.cms@gmail.com wrote:
I do not think the strategy is sufficiently perfect. Such people should be made to write complete developer-level documentation under a mentor preferably as well (in the FOSS project). Language skills cannot be handled properly in a FOSS development environment without special mentoring.
... And as for language skills -- if you're talking about the mere ability to speak in English or write perfect grammar then no, FOSS is not the place to learn that. In fact I haven't seen to many grammar pedants in the FOSS programming scenario -- you have to be if you're contributing to documentation though :)
...
Siddhesh, please see the original post. The objective of improving communication skills is so that one can understand and convey specs etc. If a person is skilled enough that he can convey ideas in imperfect english mixed with mumbaiya lingo ('kya baap, khali pili pointer ko null pe set karta hai. Runtime pe lafda ho jayenga.'), that is fine, as long as the person on the receiving end understands it. If you're working in a team, the team members must understand this too :P
Of course, once we are past that stage, we'll understand that the best way to communicate is the most concise and precise way, so that most of the people reading it get the message. And that's where grammar comes in.
The big point is that lack of communication skills is one of the big obstacles because of which deserving people do not achieve their potential. People must have enough communication skills to be effective in their work. Mentoring, as Mani points out could be an effective way of improving communication skills, but responsibility also lies with the mentee. I'm reminded of this old joke:
Q: How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb? A: Just one, but the bulb has to want to change.
On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 11:31 PM, Prashant Vermapverma@gmail.com wrote:
Siddhesh, please see the original post. The objective of improving communication skills is so that one can understand and convey specs
Specs are documentation. If you are going to write documentation for your code then you have to know how to write comprehensible English -- note that it does not necessarily mean perfect grammar. Consider the example of Ulrich Dreppers writings on various components of glibc. They have grammatical errors but they are extremely well written in the sense that they get the point across. If you do not, you will learn if you want people to understand what you have done. Also, if what you have done is really amazing enough, you will get someone to write the specs for your stuff too and your will polish your language skills along the way with all the community interaction.
etc. If a person is skilled enough that he can convey ideas in imperfect english mixed with mumbaiya lingo ('kya baap, khali pili pointer ko null pe set karta hai. Runtime pe lafda ho jayenga.'), that is fine, as long as the person on the receiving end understands it. If you're working in a team, the team members must understand this too :P
Again, if you are saying that this deserving person knows how to write only in his regional language or the national language and does not know English then no, FOSS will not help. She must learn basic English to at least be able to communicate ideas. That is what I wrote in my previous email as well.
Of course, once we are past that stage, we'll understand that the best way to communicate is the most concise and precise way, so that most of the people reading it get the message. And that's where grammar comes in.
No. perfect grammar is not key in code documentation. There are many really talented developers in the FOSS world who cannot write grammatically perfect statements but can write well enough to get the idea across. Over time, people in your project with better grammar will correct the mistakes, thus helping you learn in the process. Look at patches in the kernel and you will see that happening in real time. It is a good idea to start with "Sorry about my imperfect English" when posting for the first time to a list if your english is not good. But I never see any Indians doing that. Many even refuse to acknowledge the fact that their English is bad.
The big point is that lack of communication skills is one of the big obstacles because of which deserving people do not achieve their potential. People must have enough communication skills to be
What is funny is that we Indians are not the only ones with English as a non-native language. But we seem to be the only ones to cite that as *the* reason for any failure. The issue is not language, it is attitude. Our society makes heroes out of potential heroes even before they have delivered. This happens because we lay too much stress on the measurement of a persons potential, i.e. examinations as compared to the actual work. You passing your exam as a gold medallist is only the beginning of your life. Many of these "deserving" people take that as the ultimate victory and assume demigod status in their own minds. This seems to lead to a fear of failure or of admitting that they are not good at a specific thing, be it language or something else.
If such a deserving person does not get recognition, it is because he has not tried hard enough. Someone not mentoring him is not an excuse.
effective in their work. Mentoring, as Mani points out could be an effective way of improving communication skills, but responsibility also lies with the mentee. I'm reminded of this old joke:
Mentoring is a natural process -- it works best when it just happens rather than when it is forced. You cannot force a mentee down a mentors throat or vice versa. It is not a strict tag that X is my mentor, hence that one person will babysit me and tell me how to do magic with code or language. That will (and should) just not happen in FOSS. The beauty of FOSS is that you have so many mentors to choose from. Pick one you can communicate most effectively with. Or better still, don't really pick anyone -- learn from all of them.
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Prashant Verma -
Siddhesh Poyarekar