Rony wrote:
May I propose a simple assignment for this list? <snip>
No, you can't. We must have ILUG-Delhi rule. You have given the idea, you need to work on it first!
We could create the brochure on the net as a wiki or some online room where the project grows and leave the printing to the downloader.
We can spin the globe in reverse direction. Please start the things on LUG wiki.
On 25-Dec-06, at 12:45 PM, Kartik Mistry wrote:
No, you can't. We must have ILUG-Delhi rule. You have given the idea, you need to work on it first!
that ILUG-Delhi rule is the most idiotic rule i have ever come across. Anyone with half a brain knows that good ideas are hard to come by. For every hundred ideas suggested, maybe one will be a great idea and another 4 or 5 worth trying out. So to get a few good ideas, you need hundreds of useless ones - so you need to encourage suggestions. If you look at the Delhi mailing list, you find that every time anyone makes a suggestion, some smartass invokes the rule. Result - very very few suggestions on Delhi list. We must accept that not everyone can do everything. Some people may only be able to make suggestions. No doubt there are a few who do nothing but talk - but we need to tolerate them in order not to discourage newer people who would like to make suggestions. A simple example - I am not in Mumbai, but i give a suggestion for a central meeting place for a meeting - do you expect me to come to mumbai, arrange the place and stand at the entrance and welcome participants?
we have a wiki for this lug, and I would have started the page there if I could log in - doesnt seem to be a screen for creating an account. List admin - /me needs an account.
Sometime Today, Kenneth Gonsalves assembled some asciibets to say:
we have a wiki for this lug, and I would have started the page there if I could log in - doesnt seem to be a screen for creating an account. List admin - /me needs an account.
List admin manages the list. Not the wiki. At least I don't, and I don't know who does. I didn't even know we had a wiki until you just mentioned it. Then again, the only admin work that I do is check formatting of the welcome mail. There are other admins that do admin work.
--- Philip Tellis philip.tellis@gmx.net wrote:
I didn't even know we had a wiki until you just mentioned it.
You seem to read only a set of selected (few) posts on the list. There have been links posted that link to the wiki.
Anyways, here's the link. Check it out http://db.glug-bom.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
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On 25-Dec-06, at 2:25 PM, Philip Tellis wrote:
we have a wiki for this lug, and I would have started the page there if I could log in - doesnt seem to be a screen for creating an account. List admin - /me needs an account.
List admin manages the list. Not the wiki. At least I don't, and I don't know who does. I didn't even know we had a wiki until you just mentioned it. Then again, the only admin work that I do is check formatting of the welcome mail. There are other admins that do admin work.
the guy who manages the wiki is also a list admin - my request was directed to him
roni, the idea is really good. I recall you had suggested me this before. and for those who like to be rood, may be the person who suggested the idea may not be a good writer or an author. he may have ment that "start the document with the help of a good scripter and I will also put my own experiences." so please at least appreciate the idea if you really can't do any thing about it. Kenneth gave a very good example of how one can suggest and essentially may not be able to implement it. Please don't be rood on the lug without need and without reason. I feel as it is most ideas go in air on such lugs. this is one idea which can really be done properly with the help of good writers and you can include me in that. right now I am in delhi and start the work as soon as I come back. again a very good idea indeed. Krishnakant.
Sometime on Dec 25, krishnakant Mane assembled some asciibets to say:
idea may not be a good writer or an author. he may have ment that
that's irrelevant. you don't need to be a good writer or author to start a wiki page. you just have to have the interest to do it. the point of a wiki is for many people to work on it together, but one person has to start it.
"start the document with the help of a good scripter and I will also put my own experiences." so please at least appreciate the idea if
that's not the way it works. you start the document with no help, and then tell people that you've started it and ask for contributions. starting is the hardest part - always. sustaining it is the second hardest part.
I've been on this lug long enough to know that about 98% of the members are here only to take and not to give back. Of the remaining, most contribute by answering questions on the list, and only a handful actually contribute by writing documentation or code. Rony is one of these (and I hope his docs are somewhere on the lug site).
On 26-Dec-06, at 1:54 AM, Philip Tellis wrote:
that's not the way it works. you start the document with no help, and then tell people that you've started it and ask for contributions. starting is the hardest part - always. sustaining it is the second hardest part.
brochure is started - hardest part over. Now, for the second hardest part, go here and start typing:
http://db.glug-bom.org/wiki/index.php/Linux_Brochure
Kartik Mistry wrote:
Rony wrote:
May I propose a simple assignment for this list? <snip>
No, you can't. We must have ILUG-Delhi rule. You have given the idea, you need to work on it first!
We could create the brochure on the net as a wiki or some online room where the project grows and leave the printing to the downloader.
We can spin the globe in reverse direction. Please start the things on LUG wiki.
I will provide the matter in text format but I don't have experience in DTP type of work so there I need the expertise on how to make the page and how many folds to have and how to position that text. Will post the text soon. I will also work on the screen shots to give photo examples.
Regards,
Rony.
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On 25-Dec-06, at 5:40 PM, Rony wrote:
We can spin the globe in reverse direction. Please start the things on LUG wiki.
I will provide the matter in text format but I don't have experience in DTP type of work so there I need the expertise on how to make the page and how many folds to have and how to position that text. Will post the text soon. I will also work on the screen shots to give photo examples.
content is king - we will do the pdf stuff. I can also help with the content if i am given access.
<rant> why cant we be allowed to register on our own </rant>
--- Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
<rant> why cant we be allowed to register on our own </rant>
Read the ILUG-BOM_Wiki_Editing_Guidelines page on the Wiki. The Note answers your question :)
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On 25-Dec-06, at 6:16 PM, Roshan wrote:
<rant> why cant we be allowed to register on our own </rant>
Read the ILUG-BOM_Wiki_Editing_Guidelines page on the Wiki. The Note answers your question :)
you mean this:
Note : Due to recent spamming of this Wiki by certain unscrupulous individuals we have been forced to change new user creation policies. Henceforth, you will have to contact a SysOp/Administrator for creation of User ID.
this is a poor excuse, not a reason. There are lakhs of wikis where one can edit without even logging in. Also lakhs of wikis where registration is permitted. I administer wikis of both types. In the first type, I agree that my wiki has a lot of spam - but not uncontrollable, and not to the extent of shutting down the wiki. In the second type, a proper registration policy keeps spammers out.
Sometime on Monday 25 December 2006 18:57, Kenneth Gonsalves said:
this is a poor excuse, not a reason. There are lakhs of wikis where one can edit without even logging in. Also lakhs of wikis where registration is permitted. I administer wikis of both types. In the first type, I agree that my wiki has a lot of spam - but not uncontrollable, and not to the extent of shutting down the wiki. In the second type, a proper registration policy keeps spammers out.
if someone volunteers to keep the wiki clean then we can have publicly editable wiki as well, absolutely no problems with that.
Anurag
On 26-Dec-06, at 12:20 AM, Anurag wrote:
uncontrollable, and not to the extent of shutting down the wiki. In the second type, a proper registration policy keeps spammers out.
if someone volunteers to keep the wiki clean then we can have publicly editable wiki as well, absolutely no problems with that.
no one person can do this. A wiki has to be as accessible as possible. This means that there *will* be some spam. And all users should cooperate in removing spam. Which means educating the users. It is fairly simple - everytime you look at the wiki, click 'recent changes', go to anything that looks like spam and revert it. Educating users is important. We spit on the roads, litter at will and never clean up anything by nature - i have had numerous instances of users mailing me saying there is spam on my wiki - but they cant be bothered, or rather, do not feel the need to clean it up.
a registration policy as mentioned above - and maybe even moderating the first post by a new user should solve this problem. At the very least, please put information on the login page detailing the procedure to be followed to get an account.
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
<rant> why cant we be allowed to register on our own </rant>
That's because the wiki becomes open to defacing. It's better it stays that way, unless you are interested in finding out where to buy certain medications for throwaway prices. This was noticed within weeks of the wiki going online. That's why Anurag, Prasanta and I took the call to created login IDs on request only.
On 25-Dec-06, at 6:27 PM, Vivek J. Patankar wrote:
<rant> why cant we be allowed to register on our own </rant>
That's because the wiki becomes open to defacing. It's better it stays that way, unless you are interested in finding out where to buy certain medications for throwaway prices. This was noticed within weeks of the wiki going online. That's why Anurag, Prasanta and I took the call to created login IDs on request only.
then how does wikipedia manage it? what i do is, first you enter email id and userid, then you are mailed a link where you can add password and register. So far, in six months, only one spammer has got in. What you are giving is not a reason - it is an excuse.
--- Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
then how does wikipedia manage it? what i do is, first you enter email id and userid, then you are mailed a link where you can add password and register.
Can the Media Wiki can be customized to this type of registration? If yes, I guess, the wiki admin can do it.
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Roshan wrote:
Can the Media Wiki can be customized to this type of registration? If yes, I guess, the wiki admin can do it.
Yes, it can be done. If I remember correct (Anurag, correct me if I'm wrong), we've tried that too. The spammer just registered with one of those free email addresses, did his dirty work and left never to return.
The current system works, and please don't upset it. I don't understand why some people want everything to be their way. Is it that inconvenient to drop a mail to the list to ask for a login ID?
On 25-Dec-06, at 7:30 PM, Vivek J. Patankar wrote:
The current system works, and please don't upset it. I don't understand why some people want everything to be their way. Is it that inconvenient to drop a mail to the list to ask for a login ID?
this is India - people are lazy. The extra work involved in requesting for an Id puts people off from contributing. Contributing is a here and now kind of thing - if it cant be done here and now, it wont be done
On 25-Dec-06, at 8:10 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
The current system works, and please don't upset it. I don't understand why some people want everything to be their way. Is it that inconvenient to drop a mail to the list to ask for a login ID?
this is India - people are lazy. The extra work involved in requesting for an Id puts people off from contributing. Contributing is a here and now kind of thing - if it cant be done here and now, it wont be done
at the very least put a message on the login page asking potential users to mail the sysadmin for a login - it is now 6 hours or more since I asked for a login
hi,
Wiki is now open for registrations and requires no approval. Put up your documentation, tutorials, reviews there. Also please spend some time to just browse around and help us keep it clean.
Anurag
On 25-Dec-06, at 7:09 PM, Roshan wrote:
where you can add password and register.
Can the Media Wiki can be customized to this type of registration? If yes, I guess, the wiki admin can do it.
last i heard, media wiki was open source - so the source code is available and it should not be a big deal to do this. And dont ask me to volunteer as I know zilch about php.
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
then how does wikipedia manage it? what i do is, first you enter email id and userid, then you are mailed a link where you can add password and register. So far, in six months, only one spammer has got in. What you are giving is not a reason - it is an excuse.
Wikipedia has hundreds of contributors who help out in content development and cleanups. Any spammer activity is noticed within hours and cleaned up. Spammers look for lesser known wikis where changes are less and change logs are examined less frequently. The wiki has a few edits a month. Contributions come from lesser known players and are infrequent. It doesn't make sense to keep it open when contributions come from a handful of people. Also, I am yet to see a contribution from the so called "gurus" of this list. Give us a helping hand and keep it active. Assist in the monitoring of changes and we'll open it up.
And now in the long standing tradition of this list, Flame on.
--- "Vivek J. Patankar" wrote:
Give us a helping hand and keep it active. Assist in the monitoring of changes and we'll open it up.
++1.
I have been constantly editing the wiki. Atleast for the last few days.
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On 25-Dec-06, at 7:22 PM, Vivek J. Patankar wrote:
contribution from the so called "gurus" of this list. Give us a helping hand and keep it active. Assist in the monitoring of changes and we'll open it up.
i personally always check recent changes of any wiki i enter (small ones) and clean spam that i see. But i made a request for a login at least 6 hours ago, but still havent got one. I do agree with you that if users are few, spam cleaning does not take place. But if you dont allow users in even when they beg, how do you get more users?
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
i personally always check recent changes of any wiki i enter (small ones) and clean spam that i see. But i made a request for a login at least 6 hours ago, but still havent got one. I do agree with you that if users are few, spam cleaning does not take place. But if you dont allow users in even when they beg, how do you get more users?
And to whom did you send the request? I never received one. So far whenever a request has been made, the requester has sent the mail to all three admins. Who ever reads it first does it. I never received a request.
On 25-Dec-06, at 7:42 PM, Vivek J. Patankar wrote:
And to whom did you send the request? I never received one. So far whenever a request has been made, the requester has sent the mail to all three admins. Who ever reads it first does it. I never received a request.
i put the request on this list - you *do* read this list? or do i need to fill in a form in triplicate?
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 25-Dec-06, at 7:42 PM, Vivek J. Patankar wrote:
And to whom did you send the request? I never received one. So far whenever a request has been made, the requester has sent the mail to all three admins. Who ever reads it first does it. I never received a request.
i put the request on this list - you *do* read this list? or do i need to fill in a form in triplicate?
In triplicate and attested by a class 1 gazetted officer. Also mail me scans of your age proof and proof of residence.
You should have made a request in a separate thread. As is usual in a mailing list, not everybody reads all posts, only what they feel is relevant. Let's close this matter here. I'll be mailing you your user ID and password offlist.
Sometime on Dec 25, Vivek J. Patankar assembled some asciibets to say:
contributions come from a handful of people. Also, I am yet to see a contribution from the so called "gurus" of this list. Give us a
Define guru. IAC, there are a whole bunch of docs here: http://db.ilug-bom.org.in/lug-authors/
Sometime on Monday 25 December 2006 19:00, Kenneth Gonsalves said:
then how does wikipedia manage it? what i do is, first you enter email id and userid, then you are mailed a link where you can add password and register. So far, in six months, only one spammer has got in. What you are giving is not a reason - it is an excuse.
We had atleast half a dozen such registrations from viagra salesmen within a very short span. Vivek used to promptly clean it regularly, but it started becoming too much of a work. As i said, if some members can regulary just browse through the wiki then we wouldnt need such strict registration requirements.
Anurag
On 26-Dec-06, at 12:30 AM, Anurag wrote:
We had atleast half a dozen such registrations from viagra salesmen within a very short span.
prevent bot registration
On 26-Dec-06, at 7:20 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
We had atleast half a dozen such registrations from viagra salesmen within a very short span.
prevent bot registration
or use captchas
On 26-Dec-06, at 4:30 PM, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
or use captchas
which are pretty easy to break if not complicated enough.
bots are lazy
--- Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
bots are lazy
Only if they are programmed in that manner? Or are slow to do anything at all?
[OT] Thanks to Rony's Idea, and your inauguration, the page has seen already 72 hits today, and is being updated more frequently than any page on the wiki. I hope this is not just a surge, and the wiki will be updated at some corner everyday, but by a user, not a bot! ;) [/OT]
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On 26-Dec-06, at 8:24 PM, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
which are pretty easy to break if not complicated enough.
bots are lazy
With the kind of spam on Invision Board, VBulletin and phpBB forums I beg to differ.
php apps?
Sometime on Wednesday 27 December 2006 07:22, Kenneth Gonsalves said:
bots are lazy
With the kind of spam on Invision Board, VBulletin and phpBB forums I beg to differ.
php apps?
Are the b0ts selective about programming language used?
Anurag
On 27-Dec-06, at 11:52 AM, Anurag wrote:
php apps?
Are the b0ts selective about programming language used?
yep - programmed bots are programmed to hit specific apps - drupal bots for drupal, etc etc
Hello All,
There has been a lot of contribution to the article by the list members. I would personally, request them to take some more time and create their user pages, so that we could use the talk pages for communication.
However, if the list members feel, that the mailing list is best for communication / discussion regarding the article, no problems! :)
-- FSF-India Fellow Associate http://www.gnu.org.in
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Ok. flame wars, I don't care. But, using GNU/Linux and then pointing to only the GNU's view of the matter is very partial.
Consider the fact that if you're talking to normal users, you're looking at a desktop system, which typically means Xorg, KDE, Mozilla etc. So I wouldn't use GNU/Linux there, because that is NOT a GNU operating system. Its a Free and Open Source operating system, which is NOT equivalent to only GNU. That's rubbish.
I have a better solution. Avoid this war entirely and simply use the words "A Linux based Distribution". It could apply to "A FreeBSD based Distribution" too.
--- Mrugesh Karnik mrugeshkarnik@gmail.com wrote:
I have a better solution. Avoid this war entirely and simply use the words "A Linux based Distribution". It could apply to "A FreeBSD based Distribution" too.
Agreed. But, considering the fact, that most of the distros (under consideration in the wiki) have maximum GPLed software, prefixing it GNU, wouldn't be wrong? Would it be?
Disclaimer NOTE: I'm not being a fanatic, or forcing GNU over it. It is only a question.
-- FSF-India Fellow Associate http://www.gnu.org.in
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On Wednesday 27 December 2006 23:56, Roshan wrote:
--- Mrugesh Karnik mrugeshkarnik@gmail.com wrote:
I have a better solution. Avoid this war entirely and simply use the words "A Linux based Distribution". It could apply to "A FreeBSD based Distribution" too.
Agreed. But, considering the fact, that most of the distros (under consideration in the wiki) have maximum GPLed software, prefixing it GNU, wouldn't be wrong? Would it be?
Disclaimer NOTE: I'm not being a fanatic, or forcing GNU over it. It is only a question.
Mentioning that the software uses the GNU GPL license is way different than saying that its a GNU software. I believe that only the software that's developed directly by the GNU project should be called GNU software. Since we're talking of the desktop, which might be dominated by software that is not GNU software, it is wrong to simply term the whole distro to be a GNU operating system.
Another point is, if you're linking to a GNU page explaining why it should be GNU/Linux, why not also link to a page that argues otherwise? If such a page does not exist, create one yourself. If you can't, don't link to the GNU page. In essence, don't cause this war. Give credit where it is due. If you're talking to some user working on the shell, of course it is to be mentioned that it is the GNU bash shell. Why would you force the term `GNU' where non-GNU software will be used in majority?
Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
On Wednesday 27 December 2006 23:56, Roshan wrote:
--- Mrugesh Karnik mrugeshkarnik@gmail.com wrote:
I have a better solution. Avoid this war entirely and simply use the words "A Linux based Distribution". It could apply to "A FreeBSD based Distribution" too.
Agreed. But, considering the fact, that most of the distros (under consideration in the wiki) have maximum GPLed software, prefixing it GNU, wouldn't be wrong? Would it be?
Disclaimer NOTE: I'm not being a fanatic, or forcing GNU over it. It is only a question.
Mentioning that the software uses the GNU GPL license is way different than saying that its a GNU software. I believe that only the software that's developed directly by the GNU project should be called GNU software. Since we're talking of the desktop, which might be dominated by software that is not GNU software, it is wrong to simply term the whole distro to be a GNU operating system.
Another point is, if you're linking to a GNU page explaining why it should be GNU/Linux, why not also link to a page that argues otherwise? If such a page does not exist, create one yourself. If you can't, don't link to the GNU page. In essence, don't cause this war. Give credit where it is due. If you're talking to some user working on the shell, of course it is to be mentioned that it is the GNU bash shell. Why would you force the term `GNU' where non-GNU software will be used in majority?
Guys keep it simple. Windows users who are victims of software piracy do not read licences.
Regards,
Rony.
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hello, can some one kindly give me the link to the already existing article? by the way I had been a reporter few years back so I may as well change the lingo a bit or may be present a few points mentioned by all the colligues on this list in a different way. I think the newbees and common (home/ office users ) is the main target? servers need not go on a priority because many if not all admins are these days aware of gnu/linux. it should be done but desktop needs priority. further more I think we stick to call it gnulinux instead of only gnu or only linux. we still use a lot of gnu toolchain even when we are using the gnome or kde or what ever desktop. and I think we must not expose the new user to this arguement else it will not speak good for the progress of free and open source software. one more point which time and time again comes from users is that "why would such a powerful, stable, virus free and all comprehencive system come for free along with all needed software?" this point needs some serious consideration and for those who base their business on free software it becomes even more important that people who could be possible clients realise that they must pay for the software. and when we talk about 4 freedoms, we also need to properly elaborate on the point that gnu/linux gives complete transparent environment for working. we know why it is secured and why virus free and if we are not programmers (dare not use the word hackares in front of common man), we can hire other programmers to get the system customised. also worth mentioning is the fact that when we read a non-free software license we read "this license gives permission to use not own " that is the bottom line. here you like all other users are non-exclusive owners of the software because software re-use and distribution is your birth right just like gaining knowledge. put a couple of case study examples. I can put my own live example when I desired that my client excepts the software to work on linux kernel so that he could get what he wanted. I think once people read the document half way through they probably get the idea of the power. it is then that above mentioned questions regarding cost, or freedom etc come in the customer's mind. remember there is a common psychology, "if it is cheep as in cost it will be cheep as in quality". this needs to be cleared out. regards. Krishnakant.
On 27-Dec-06, at 11:56 PM, Roshan wrote:
Agreed. But, considering the fact, that most of the distros (under consideration in the wiki) have maximum GPLed software,
they dont
prefixing it GNU, wouldn't be wrong? Would it be?
as i have mentioned elsewhere a machine with only gpl'd software would be gNoUse
--- Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
as i have mentioned elsewhere a machine with only gpl'd software would be gNoUse
seems gNoUse (GNewSense GNU/Linux) is an absolute Ubuntu Linux Clone omitting Proprietary apps. Is it?
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On 12/28/06, Roshan d_rosh2001@yahoo.co.in wrote:
seems gNoUse (GNewSense GNU/Linux) is an absolute Ubuntu Linux Clone omitting Proprietary apps. Is it?
AFAIK zlib is not GPLed, neither is X.org, apache, python, php... the list goes on.
Regards,
On 28-Dec-06, at 8:33 AM, Roshan wrote:
seems gNoUse (GNewSense GNU/Linux) is an absolute Ubuntu Linux Clone omitting Proprietary apps. Is it?
and all non GPLed apps
Ok. Apparently, I have a few comments rather than one or two, for which I've already sent two different emails...
<quote> Customise - All code is available for reuse </quote>
The typical end user couldn't care less. Use KDE as an example. Windows simply does not offer you that kind of control, that easily. For example, no need to install 3rd party non-free (cost wise) software just to install themes.
Choice is an important point. With Windows, the user is stuck to the default interface. In Linux we have GNOME, KDE, XFCE as Desktop Environments that are different and offer choice. Plus the various Window Managers. E17 - do not forget about it. It rocks.
<quote> Platform Indpendence - Runs on Intel x86, ARM, Alpha, Sparc, Mips, SH, Sharc, Power Omap and many other architectures. </quote>
Would I really care, as an end user? I'd only worry about Intel x86 and AMD64 in most cases.
Hmm. Many devices work out of the box. For example, just plug in your Sony Ericsson mobile phone and it works! No extra software to install, no drivers needed.
<quote> Security - secure by virtue of being a multiuser multitasking networked system by design. One of the spinoffs is that GNU/Linux is essentially virus free </quote>
Add spyware. Major concern these days. This also means no installation of 3rd party software.
Also, no need to use pirated software or cracks. Nearly everything is free as in cost and legitimate.
Also mention the fact that when you install a Linux Distro, all the software is installed, instead of having to install it manually. Huge plus.
Software installation can be a plus. No need to hunt various sites for software downloads. Just open some GUI and look for the software you want and click install. Automatically downloaded and installed. Quite likeable.
The LiveCDs are loved, trust me. Newbies love the ability to pop in a cd and check out software without having to install it. The point should be moved higher up the order.
Whom exactly is this document aimed at? Newbies? I would guess so. Please bear in mind the target audience before writing. I would rather split up the document for Desktops and Servers.
You forgot to mention the features that certain apps offer that aren't available in Windows, for example Amarok, superkaramba... And Beryl!
--- Mrugesh Karnik mrugeshkarnik@gmail.com wrote:
Ok. Apparently, I have a few comments rather than one or two, for which I've already sent two different emails...
<removed comments>
Hey dude, you have a Wiki Account. Go ahead and edit the article, in such a way, that the current and the new content is acceptable, to the least, to all the GLUG-BOM wikipedians.
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On Thursday 28 December 2006 00:09, Roshan wrote:
Hey dude, you have a Wiki Account. Go ahead and edit the article, in such a way, that the current and the new content is acceptable, to the least, to all the GLUG-BOM wikipedians.
No, thank you. The appearance of GNU/Linux and the partiality associated with that section has put me off. Seems like these fanatics care more about the word GNU than its meaning these days.
P.S. I don't know who wrote that. If the person finds this comment offencive, I don't care.
Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
On Thursday 28 December 2006 00:09, Roshan wrote:
Hey dude, you have a Wiki Account. Go ahead and edit the article, in such a way, that the current and the new content is acceptable, to the least, to all the GLUG-BOM wikipedians.
No, thank you. The appearance of GNU/Linux and the partiality associated with that section has put me off. Seems like these fanatics care more about the word GNU than its meaning these days.
P.S. I don't know who wrote that. If the person finds this comment offencive, I don't care.
OK no flames, Have mercy on me. :-D
Regards,
Rony. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
On Thursday 28 December 2006 00:30, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
On Thursday 28 December 2006 00:09, Roshan wrote:
No, thank you. The appearance of GNU/Linux and the partiality associated with that section has put me off. Seems like these fanatics care more about the word GNU than its meaning these days.
P.S. I don't know who wrote that. If the person finds this comment offencive, I don't care.
I wrote the comment. If u dont care shut up. If u do either way read the mail archives and talk logic rather than name calling. Name calling tends to show up as a very neuron defecient head. The wiki clearly states that all other characteristics exist as a spinoff of freedom. And the FSF and RMS in particular has had the foresight and moral strength to fight when most others would like to pretend otherwise. Apache, X, and others do not focuss on this aspect (and they need not too) because others are doing that job. We too are doing our bit in the same vein. Are we trying to denigrate the others - most certainly not. I fail to see how focussing on freedom as per the GNU manifesto in anyway detracts from ANY contibutor to the FOSS universe. Having read the urls someone will form an opinion - for, against or dontcare - which is better than forming an opinion without knowing the basis for his opinions.
On Thursday 28 December 2006 14:11, jtd wrote:
On Thursday 28 December 2006 00:30, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
On Thursday 28 December 2006 00:09, Roshan wrote:
No, thank you. The appearance of GNU/Linux and the partiality associated with that section has put me off. Seems like these fanatics care more about the word GNU than its meaning these days.
P.S. I don't know who wrote that. If the person finds this comment offencive, I don't care.
I wrote the comment. If u dont care shut up. If u do either way read the mail archives and talk logic rather than name calling. Name calling tends to show up as a very neuron defecient head. The wiki clearly states that all other characteristics exist as a spinoff of freedom. And the FSF and RMS in particular has had the foresight and moral strength to fight when most others would like to pretend otherwise.
Yes. It's a fact. Read what I've said time and time again on the list. The first thing I always tell any newbie is regarding freedom. I tell them what is FOSS and what freedom stands for. Read the link to my blog post I've provided in the email "Linux Brochure - Short Version". Read what I've said at the bottom and then dig up my neuron deficiencies. I tell people the importance of GNU. But I do not take sides. I am neither a Linux nor a GNU/Linux fanatic. What is right is right. I think Linus is wrong to make comments such as "Go write your own kernel" and RMS is wrong to use the words "GNU/Linux".
In that same email, I've specified my view about GNU/Linux. Read it up. I hear that the term GNU/Linux is used to portray the importance of freedom. Would you rather not use FOSS/Linux then? A Free and Open Source Operating System atop the Linux kernel. Doesn't that sound more appropriate? Aren't the other components of the system Free too? Sure, they do not focus on the aspect, GNU does, but in the end, they ARE free and they're not GNU software. That's my point.
Apache, X, and others do not focuss on this aspect (and they need not too) because others are doing that job. We too are doing our bit in the same vein.
Right. I do my part too.
Are we trying to denigrate the others - most certainly not. I fail to see how focussing on freedom as per the GNU manifesto in anyway detracts from ANY contibutor to the FOSS universe. Having read the urls someone will form an opinion - for, against or dontcare - which is better than forming an opinion without knowing the basis for his opinions.
Exactly. I see the URL pointing to GNU's opinion. Where's the opinion of the people who disagree with the term GNU/Linux? If the content you put up leads people to form an opinion, shouldn't you present both sides of the argument?
On 28-Dec-06, at 8:36 PM, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
Having read the urls someone will form an opinion - for, against or dontcare - which is better than forming an opinion without knowing the basis for his opinions.
Exactly. I see the URL pointing to GNU's opinion. Where's the opinion of the people who disagree with the term GNU/Linux? If the content you put up leads people to form an opinion, shouldn't you present both sides of the argument?
ok - done. http://db.glug-bom.org/wiki/index.php/ Linux_Brochure_Quick_Guide#What_is_Linux.3F. Now please come back and add your valuable inputs to the brochure. You are one of the few people in this list with genuine artistic talents, and we need you to get the best possible results.
What is right is right. I think Linus is wrong to make
comments such as "Go write your own kernel"
i agree with you there.
Exactly. I see the URL pointing to GNU's opinion. Where's the opinion of the people who disagree with the term GNU/Linux? If the content you put up leads people to form an opinion, shouldn't you present both sides of the argument?
also true. Giving freedom implies giving perspectives. i have to point out though that GNU does make a clear distinction between those who are in it just for $$$, or technically great software and those who are in it for freedom.
Regards,
- vihan
On Thursday 28 December 2006 20:36, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
On Thursday 28 December 2006 14:11, jtd wrote:
On Thursday 28 December 2006 00:30, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
On Thursday 28 December 2006 00:09, Roshan wrote:
In that same email, I've specified my view about GNU/Linux. Read it up. I hear that the term GNU/Linux is used to portray the importance of freedom. Would you rather not use FOSS/Linux then? A Free and Open Source Operating System atop the Linux kernel. Doesn't that sound more appropriate? Aren't the other components of the system Free too? Sure, they do not focus on the aspect, GNU does, but in the end, they ARE free and they're not GNU software. That's my point.
when u say GNU/Linux u are not pointing to software (GNU or otherwise). U are pointing to the importance of freedom. When u say open source u mean the source is open but not neccessarily free. Which is something different and is nicely exploited by M$ saying that their shared source is open.
Apache, X, and others do not focuss on this aspect (and they need not too) because others are doing that job. We too are doing our bit in the same vein.
Right. I do my part too.
Except labeling people as fanatics.
Are we trying to denigrate the others - most certainly not. I fail to see how focussing on freedom as per the GNU manifesto in anyway detracts from ANY contibutor to the FOSS universe. Having read the urls someone will form an opinion - for, against or dontcare - which is better than forming an opinion without knowing the basis for his opinions.
Exactly. I see the URL pointing to GNU's opinion. Where's the opinion of the people who disagree with the term GNU/Linux? If the content you put up leads people to form an opinion, shouldn't you present both sides of the argument?
Why cant u do that?
The fact as it stands in today's world is that the freedom message is being diluted and hidden all the while. In many cases actively subverted. Linux and the entire FOSS ecosystem has flourished because of the GPL and it's staunch defendants. All the others would have been academic curiosities, milked for their freebie technology and ditched at the first opportunity. Just count the number (never mind usefullness) of libre software developed exclusively on a non-free platform.
On 29-Dec-06, at 1:01 PM, jtd wrote:
subverted. Linux and the entire FOSS ecosystem has flourished because of the GPL and it's staunch defendants. All the others would have been academic curiosities, milked for their freebie technology and ditched at the first opportunity.
i seriously doubt this - GPL is just one strand in the web - a big important one, but nonetheless one of many
On Friday 29 December 2006 13:20, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 29-Dec-06, at 1:01 PM, jtd wrote:
subverted. Linux and the entire FOSS ecosystem has flourished because of the GPL and it's staunch defendants. All the others would have been academic curiosities, milked for their freebie technology and ditched at the first opportunity.
i seriously doubt this - GPL is just one strand in the web - a big important one, but nonetheless one of many
Indeed it is so now. And it is a matter of joy that non gpld libre software (software which permits reuse without a financial costs for any purpose u choose) are doing well. But are the dangers over? Most definetly no. If anything u have organisations with enormous resources, working very hard to subvert the gpl and the opensourcers playing right into their hands. Mono is a case in point. 3 yrs ago everyone thought why not. After the Microvell deal only an insane person would use it.
Mono is a case in point. 3 yrs ago everyone thought why not. After the Microvell deal only an insane person would use it.
Question : How would the Microvell impact Mono in particular, even though it is GPL? This is a genuine curiosity, not an argument :-)
Regards,
- vihan
On Friday 29 December 2006 13:55, Vihan Pandey wrote:
Mono is a case in point. 3 yrs ago everyone thought why not. After the Microvell deal only an insane person would use it.
Question : How would the Microvell impact Mono in particular, even though it is GPL? This is a genuine curiosity, not an argument :-)
The GPL v2 does not explicitly require assignment of patented technology to a sublicencee for further downstream distribution. So Patent holder licences patent to U the developer for development and use of code based on patent. U develops gpld software and distributes to Me. I can use it as per the gpl. I develop some more and distribute my code to lugger. Lugger cant use - he has not recieved patent rights cause i have no rights to reditribute the patented tech. I have only rights to use. Patent holder cant sue me. He can sue lugger. So lugger has to get licence from patent holder or cease and desist.
On 29-Dec-06, at 1:39 PM, jtd wrote:
any purpose u choose) are doing well. But are the dangers over? Most definetly no. If anything u have organisations with enormous resources, working very hard to subvert the gpl and the opensourcers playing right into their hands. Mono is a case in point. 3 yrs ago everyone thought why not. After the Microvell deal only an insane person would use it.
even three years ago, many people were dubious about mono - especially as against dotgnu as they felt the developmental model was not true foss. The developmental model is as important as the license if not more. Compare mysql and postgresql and you will see the difference. Mysql is dual licensed and GPL - postgres is bsd. Mysql only uses hired developers and the development path is determined by the company. Postgres uses huge number of developers, dont know if any are paid, and the development path is decided by a meritocracy. I wouldnt put any money at all on Mysql not going proprietary or collapsing or selling out any day. Ditto for any sun project released under GPL. Far more important than the license is the development model. Just because the source is released, it doesnt imply that the software is truly foss. In short there is foss and FOSS. The more a project follows the bazaar model of development, the more viable it is going to be.
On Friday 29 December 2006 15:15, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
The developmental model is as important as the license if not more. Compare mysql and postgresql and you will see the difference. Mysql is dual licensed and GPL - postgres is bsd. Mysql only uses hired developers and the development path is determined by the company.
I see the introduction of mysql and mysql-community packages in portage. Looks like a change is underway.
On 29-Dec-06, at 3:58 PM, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
only uses hired developers and the development path is determined by the company.
I see the introduction of mysql and mysql-community packages in portage. Looks like a change is underway.
are they taking patches from non-employees now?
On 12/29/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
The fact as it stands in today's world is that the freedom message is being diluted and hidden all the while. In many cases actively subverted. Linux and the entire FOSS ecosystem has flourished because of the GPL and it's staunch defendants. All the others would have been academic curiosities, milked for their freebie technology and ditched at the first opportunity. Just count the number (never mind usefullness) of libre software developed exclusively on a non-free platform.
I think GNU is an important part of the FOSS ecosystem. What irritates me is that GNU fanatics (Def: excessive or overweening devotion to a cause or belief. Fanatic further implies unbalanced or obsessive behavior) berate other FOSS programs and spout FUD. BSD predated the GPL and has made important contributions to the FOSS ecosystems like vi and the C shell.
Also it is not an academic curiosity. BSD is widely used and supported by a lot of organisation. In fact some of the ideas for the "GNU system" have come from the BSD world.
-- Vinayak
On Friday 29 December 2006 15:01, Vinayak Hegde wrote: .
Just count the number (never mind usefullness) of libre software developed exclusively on a non-free platform.
berate other FOSS programs and spout FUD.
At no point in this entire thread has anyone berated any other software. the only berating was by Murgesh.
BSD predated the GPL and has made important contributions to the FOSS ecosystems like vi and the C shell. Also it is not an academic curiosity. BSD is widely used and supported by a lot of organisation. In fact some of the ideas for the "GNU system" have come from the BSD world.
It has. So put in a few lines and links about BSD in the wiki rather than ranting about it.
On Friday 29 December 2006 15:30, jtd wrote:
On Friday 29 December 2006 15:01, Vinayak Hegde wrote: .
Just count the number (never mind usefullness) of libre software developed exclusively on a non-free platform.
berate other FOSS programs and spout FUD.
At no point in this entire thread has anyone berated any other software. the only berating was by Murgesh.
Sorry that should have been Mrugesh ;-)
On Friday 29 December 2006 15:39, jtd wrote:
On Friday 29 December 2006 15:30, jtd wrote:
On Friday 29 December 2006 15:01, Vinayak Hegde wrote: .
Just count the number (never mind usefullness) of libre software developed exclusively on a non-free platform.
berate other FOSS programs and spout FUD.
At no point in this entire thread has anyone berated any other software. the only berating was by Murgesh.
Sorry that should have been Mrugesh ;-)
Oh duh. My pretty name messed up.. again! :(
And I guess I should congratulate myself on winning the Nobel prize.
And then again, I call fanaticism just that.. fanaticism. Maybe people would be wise to do some self examination.
Let me say another thing. If someone takes up the point of calling me a fanatic because of my opposition to GNU/Linux, read my email again. It tells you that I do not wish my content to be used where GNU/Linux appears improperly, but I do not stop you. You're allowed to use it whichever way you'd like to.
On 29-Dec-06, at 4:04 PM, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
Let me say another thing. If someone takes up the point of calling me a fanatic because of my opposition to GNU/Linux, read my email again. It tells you that I do not wish my content to be used where GNU/Linux appears improperly, but I do not stop you. You're allowed to use it whichever way you'd like to.
please bring it back to the wiki - name it short-brochure-another- version or something
On 12/29/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
BSD predated the GPL and has made important contributions to the FOSS ecosystems like vi and the C shell. Also it is not an academic curiosity. BSD is widely used and supported by a lot of organisation. In fact some of the ideas for the "GNU system" have come from the BSD world.
It has. So put in a few lines and links about BSD in the wiki rather than ranting about it.
There is no need to attack people when proven wrong. If you go back and read your own posts in this thread with a cool head, you will see that you are belittling all other nonGPLed FOSS software as academic curiosities. I am not ranting and I cannot contribute this snippet to the Linux brochure as it is about Linux and not about BSD.
-- Vinayak
On 29-Dec-06, at 4:14 PM, Vinayak Hegde wrote:
curiosities. I am not ranting and I cannot contribute this snippet to the Linux brochure as it is about Linux and not about BSD.
that is because you have not added the bsd part
On Friday 29 December 2006 16:14, Vinayak Hegde wrote:
On 12/29/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
BSD predated the GPL
Afaik FSF was started in 1983 and the first BSD on 386 was released in 86. And FBSD much later.
and has made important contributions to the FOSS ecosystems like vi and the C shell. Also it is not an academic curiosity. BSD is widely used and supported by a lot of organisation. In fact some of the ideas for the "GNU system" have come from the BSD world.
It has. So put in a few lines and links about BSD in the wiki rather than ranting about it.
There is no need to attack people when proven wrong. If you go back and read your own posts in this thread with a cool head, you will see that you are belittling all other nonGPLed FOSS software as academic curiosities.
Not at all. IF the FSF had not done what it did, THEN the others would have been history.
As for BSD inspite of having all the advantages that they did a full 4 years ahead of linux they have (mostly) fallen behind.
I am not ranting and I cannot contribute this snippet to the Linux brochure as it is about Linux and not about BSD.
U can add a section other Free and open OSs and link to another wiki page. KG has already suggested that.
Hello all,
An alternate brochure has been added to the wiki, which doesn't speak much technically but is addressed the way we speak to people when talking about Linux and FOSS.
http://db.ilug-bom.org.in/wiki/index.php/Linux_Brochure_Alternate#Comments
Mrugesh's alternate brochure, which he had posted up in his blog ( http://floyd-n-milan.blogspot.com/2006/12/linux-brochure-short-version.html ), has been added to this. I have also added my own words in the comment portion of this. I hope more people can add their thoughts, especially some one about BSD, in a similar tone as ours.
This is not any thing we propose against the original brochure, but another alternate version, which is more like how we talk to people. Thats all! We welcome all comments regarding the same and also some more additional points which we might have missed.
On 12/29/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
Not at all. IF the FSF had not done what it did, THEN the others would have been history.
As for BSD inspite of having all the advantages that they did a full 4 years ahead of linux they have (mostly) fallen behind.
There are other reasons for BSD falling behind. The major reason being the lawsuit. Linus has gone on record saying that he wuld never have developed on Linux were it not for the lawsuit. You need to get your facts right. Also till the recent past (about 2-3 years), Freebsd was neck-to-neck with Linux in terms of technology.
-- Vinayak
On 03-Jan-07, at 9:06 AM, Vinayak Hegde wrote:
There are other reasons for BSD falling behind. The major reason being the lawsuit. Linus has gone on record saying that he wuld never have developed on Linux were it not for the lawsuit.
what lawsuit - how did it affect things?
On 1/3/07, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
what lawsuit - how did it affect things?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USL_v._BSDi
Linus and Alan Cox have both said that they would be working on BSD rather than Linux if there were no lawsuit at a critical time.
You can google for "BSD lawsuit" for more references and quotes.
-- Vinayak
On Wednesday 03 January 2007 09:06, Vinayak Hegde wrote:
On 12/29/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
Not at all. IF the FSF had not done what it did, THEN the others would have been history.
As for BSD inspite of having all the advantages that they did a full 4 years ahead of linux they have (mostly) fallen behind.
There are other reasons for BSD falling behind. The major reason being the lawsuit.
The case was filed in 90. And settled in 93 at which point bsd was still far far ahead in the race.
Linus has gone on record saying that he wuld never have developed on Linux were it not for the lawsuit. You need to get your facts right. Also till the recent past (about 2-3 years), Freebsd was neck-to-neck with Linux in terms of technology.
I would place that at 2001.
And that is precisely my point. How come it fell behind. IMO because of the licence which fosters a certain development model. As KG puts it "it's the development model, not the licence". I dont agree wholly with that as it's essentially the licence which creates the eco system and also gurantees good behaviour by the participants, over short term gains. In the case of BSD the licence creates an ecosystem which is useful for certain goals but relies on "market forces" to prevent errant and counterproductive behaviour. Unfortunately market forces actually rewards such behaviour in the short term. And if gamed properly, for a substantially longer period, relative to product cycles. The result is very visible. Also the mutants keep poisoning the field with legal mines. Which requires changes in the licence.
On 03-Jan-07, at 11:22 AM, jtd wrote:
And that is precisely my point. How come it fell behind. IMO because of the licence which fosters a certain development model. As KG puts it "it's the development model, not the licence". I dont agree wholly with that as it's essentially the licence which creates the eco system and also gurantees good behaviour by the participants, over short term gains.
there are two main development models going:
1. an organisation or company running the show, planning the direction 2. a meritocracy running the show, planning the direction
anything under the first model - regardless of the license - is in danger. Good examples are mysql and mono - both under GPL
even the second model is in danger *unless* it has reached critical mass. By critical mass, I mean it has sufficient base of developers that make sure that no one person or one group can subvert it. Linux kernel has that critical mass. And a surprisingly large number of applications dont have it - and are in danger.
as for gpl creating good behaviour - remember it is because of gpl that mysql and mono have no external developer base. Every would be developer has to assign copyright of his work to the owners. This constraint is not there in BSD style applications like postgresql. And, like it or not, it *does* make a huge difference.
I would venture that apache too has reached critical mass.
On Wednesday 03 January 2007 11:53, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 03-Jan-07, at 11:22 AM, jtd wrote:
because of the licence which fosters a certain development model. As KG puts it "it's the development model, not the licence".
there are two main development models going:
- an organisation or company running the show, planning the
direction 2. a meritocracy running the show, planning the direction
anything under the first model - regardless of the license - is in danger. Good examples are mysql and mono - both under GPL
even the second model is in danger *unless* it has reached critical mass. By critical mass, I mean it has sufficient base of developers that make sure that no one person or one group can subvert it. Linux kernel has that critical mass. And a surprisingly large number of applications dont have it - and are in danger.
Agreed.
as for gpl creating good behaviour - remember it is because of gpl that mysql and mono have no external developer base. Every would be developer has to assign copyright of his work to the owners.
That is definetly not the requirement of the gpl. It is the requirement of the organisation. And will eventually cause a fork. Eg X.org.
This constraint is not there in BSD style applications like postgresql. And, like it or not, it *does* make a huge difference.
I would venture that apache too has reached critical mass.
Indeed. But u are looking at good behaviour. How do you account for the innumerable known - never mind uknown - bad ones under BSD style models. In utopia u would not require a licence at all. the purpose of the licence is to ensure good behaviour. Relying on market forces is a roll of the dice. Critical mass is an essential to anything, open or closed. That is what keeps M$ going. How did it get the tech to get that critical mass ? suck BSD and friends whenever neccessary. Counter point they could be sucking GNU too and one wouldn't know. But imo they would not risk that.
On 03-Jan-07, at 12:18 PM, jtd wrote:
as for gpl creating good behaviour - remember it is because of gpl that mysql and mono have no external developer base. Every would be developer has to assign copyright of his work to the owners.
That is definetly not the requirement of the gpl. It is the requirement of the organisation. And will eventually cause a fork. Eg X.org.
but it invariably happens when you dual license gpl'd software - and doesnt happen when you dual license bsd software
2007/1/3, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org:
there are two main development models going:
- an organisation or company running the show, planning the direction
- a meritocracy running the show, planning the direction
anything under the first model - regardless of the license - is in danger. Good examples are mysql and mono - both under GPL
What is dangerous with mysql? If they stop releasing GPLed versions the community can easily fork it. Example sourceforge and gforge. http://gforge.org/projects/gforge/ gforge is widely used and actively developed (sarovar.org, savannah.gnu.org, alioth.debian.org ...)
And the danger with mono is patents. Even dotGNU has the danger but not as grave as mono because Novell is paying royalties means acknoledging the patent infringement.
even the second model is in danger *unless* it has reached critical
mass. By critical mass, I mean it has sufficient base of developers that make sure that no one person or one group can subvert it.
I agree with you here but even in this GPL has clear advantage as there is no question of subverting (that arises only in case one where you have copyright to the complete source code as in case 1).
Linux
kernel has that critical mass. And a surprisingly large number of applications dont have it - and are in danger.
I don't agree with you here. If there are people using an application there will be some to continue development (see gforge).
as for gpl creating good behaviour - remember it is because of gpl
that mysql and mono have no external developer base.
paid and no paid FOSS developers are still FOSS developers and the code is still FOSS. How MySQL becomes second class when all the developers are getting paid? It is a good thing that the FOSS developers get paid.
This
constraint is not there in BSD style applications like postgresql.
As you mentioned earlier unless there is a critical mass there is no way to save these kind of projects in class 2.
And, like it or not, it *does* make a huge difference.
I have seen GNU classpath developers eagerly waiting to send their copyright assignments to Sun as soon as they could. All of the GNU Classpath developers were completely happy about the release of java under GPL see for example http://kennke.org/blog/2006/11/13/first-rays-of-a-new-rising-sun/
I would venture that apache too has reached critical mass.
I agree
Cheers Praveen
On 03-Jan-07, at 6:50 PM, പ്രവീണ്|Praveen wrote:
paid and no paid FOSS developers are still FOSS developers and the code is still FOSS. How MySQL becomes second class when all the developers are getting paid? It is a good thing that the FOSS developers get paid.
you have missed the point. mysql and co miss out on the one-off developer. a guy who may just make one patch. And also there is a limit to the amount one can pay. So when you only have paid developers, your developer base is bound to be small. This is not about whether it is good or not good that FOSS developers be paid. This is about the FOSS model of development against the proprietary model of development. What I am saying is that even if code is released under a FOSS license, that does not necessarily imply that that code is being developed along the foss model - small incremental changes, large developer base, promiscous acceptance of patches, a bias against over engineering and over centralisation and over planning. Incidently (if you need some ghee added to the flames) Linus's criticism of Hurd was that the development model it follows is not a FOSS model - and that is why it is doomed
I would venture that apache too has reached critical mass.
I agree
you agree? then could I venture to say that python, perl, postgresql have also reached critical mass?
On 03/01/07 09:06 +0530, Vinayak Hegde wrote: <snip>
There are other reasons for BSD falling behind. The major reason being the lawsuit. Linus has gone on record saying that he wuld never have developed on Linux were it not for the lawsuit. You need to get your facts right. Also till the recent past (about 2-3 years), Freebsd was neck-to-neck with Linux in terms of technology.
IMO, until IBM and co started throwing their weight around with 2.6, *BSD was a better choice technically. Add to that the unstable mess that was 2.4 and you had the makings of a disaster (2.4 was a disaster because Linux was running on mission critical servers, and no one would even dare to actually test 2.3 there. The whole community approach works when the community is willing to take risks. 2.6 had serious corporate test networks available for testing.)
Devdas Bhagat
some short observations about this gnu vs linux issue. 1. fact is fact. gnu is the base and linux is the kernel so gnulinux should not offend any one. what's wrong in calling both the names when it is perfectly ethical and logical to do so? did any one ever say just call it gnu? 2. if any one feels it should be called "foss/linux" then a question can be asked "why not gnu/foss?" so please don't make such comments. 3. gnulinux gives the perfect picture of total transperency and freedom. it means "gnu operating system useing the linux kernel". so we value both gnu as well as the linux kernel. will some one ever disagree that linux is a kernel not an operating system? and if linux is the kernel is it not the duty of every one to mention the name of the operating system (and the tool chain ) along with the kernel? regards. Krishnakant.
Sometime Today, kM cobbled together some glyphs to say:
- fact is fact. gnu is the base and linux is the kernel so gnulinux
should not offend any one. what's wrong in calling both the names
while this was the case when linux started out, it is no longer the case. each distribution is an operating system in itself, and most of them do not resemble the original [intended] GNU system very much. Most distros come pre-bundled with non-free software, which means that they are definitely not GNU/Linux systems.
- gnulinux gives the perfect picture of total transperency and freedom.
it means "gnu operating system useing the linux kernel". so we value
As far as I know (and I don't know everything), Debian GNU/Linux is the only GNU operating system using the linux kernel. I'm sure it's possible to come up with your own such OS using Gentoo or LFS, but most other pre-bundled linux kernel based operating systems have different names (eg: Fedora Core Linux, Redhat Enterprise Linux).
system? and if linux is the kernel is it not the duty of every one to mention the name of the operating system (and the tool chain ) along
The tool chain and whether it is indispensable or not is really irrelevant. The operating system and kernel may be relevant, but when we talk about Free operating systems, we aren't dealing with the single GNU Free operating system. There are many more today, all of which we push, and most of which aren't GNU.
Using the GNU/ to imply freedom is a noble cause, and well worth it, but is it right to use the GNU/ prefix to sell an OS that isn't completely Free?
And if you want my recommendation, I'll stick by what I've always said. Pick a name that runs well of the tongue, and has all the connotations that you wish to imply. It does not need to have either GNU or Linux in its name, it just needs to sell well.
On Wed, 2007-01-03 at 16:03 +0530, Philip Tellis wrote:
And if you want my recommendation, I'll stick by what I've always said. Pick a name that runs well of the tongue, and has all the connotations that you wish to imply. It does not need to have either GNU or Linux in its name, it just needs to sell well.
I agree.
My personal take on the matter is that since most desktop users spend most of their time in a desktop environment, it's actually more sensible to use the desktop's name - Gnome, KDE, XFCE etc. To me it appears to be the quickest way to convey the largest amount of information about the user's environment.
(My to drops of hydro carbon based liquid to this highly incendiary thread :)
-gabin
-- To err is human, to moo bovine.
On 03-Jan-07, at 4:41 PM, Gabin Kattukaran wrote:
most of their time in a desktop environment, it's actually more sensible to use the desktop's name - Gnome, KDE, XFCE etc. To me it appears to be the quickest way to convey the largest amount of information about the user's environment.
most people use the distro name - i talk of my kubuntu box, my freebsd box and my devian box
On Wed, 2007-01-03 at 17:14 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On 03-Jan-07, at 4:41 PM, Gabin Kattukaran wrote:
most of their time in a desktop environment, it's actually more sensible to use the desktop's name - Gnome, KDE, XFCE etc. To me it appears to be the quickest way to convey the largest amount of information about the user's environment.
most people use the distro name - i talk of my kubuntu box, my freebsd box and my devian box
Of the lot, I think the Ubuntu family does best in expressing orientation - the various flavours clearly identifying them. As for the others, how different (from a user experience point of view) is Gnome running on Debian (note the lack of extra potentially volatile terms :) fro Gnome running on FC from Gnome running on <your favourite distro here> ?
On the server side it's always better to talk in terms of stacks or services and the packages that provide them
-gabin
On Wed, 2007-01-03 at 17:44 +0530, Gabin Kattukaran wrote:
Of the lot, I think the Ubuntu family does best in expressing orientation - the various flavours clearly identifying them. As for the others, how different (from a user experience point of view) is Gnome running on Debian (note the lack of extra potentially volatile terms :) fro Gnome running on FC from Gnome running on <your favourite distro here> ?
Contrast that with the user experience on Gnome vs KDE vs XFCE
-gabin
Of the lot, I think the Ubuntu family does best in expressing orientation - the various flavours clearly identifying them. As for the others, how different (from a user experience point of view) is Gnome running on Debian (note the lack of extra potentially volatile terms :) fro Gnome running on FC from Gnome running on <your favourite distro here> ?
True, it sounds a lot more serene, calm(and i mean really calm) and keeps one from getting emotionally hyper(whichever ideology) and seems to be quite acceptable.
On the server side it's always better to talk in terms of stacks or
services and the packages that provide them
that works for me.
Gabin, i guess this thread won't be that after all ;-) Your two drops seem to be those of sacred water and seem to have created a peace around an ever heated topic :-) i hope i did not speak too soon ;-)
Philip,
<quote>
Using the GNU/ to imply freedom is a noble cause, and well worth it, but is it right to use the GNU/ prefix to sell an OS that isn't completely Free?
</quote>
well said :-)
Regards,
- vihan
Gabin Kattukaran wrote:
On Wed, 2007-01-03 at 16:03 +0530, Philip Tellis wrote:
And if you want my recommendation, I'll stick by what I've always said. Pick a name that runs well of the tongue, and has all the connotations that you wish to imply. It does not need to have either GNU or Linux in its name, it just needs to sell well.
I agree.
My personal take on the matter is that since most desktop users spend most of their time in a desktop environment, it's actually more sensible to use the desktop's name - Gnome, KDE, XFCE etc.
i use fvwm.. you insensitive clod!!
My personal take on the matter is that since most desktop users spend
most of their time in a desktop environment, it's actually more sensible to use the desktop's name - Gnome, KDE, XFCE etc.
i use fvwm.. you insensitive clod!!
Dude, its not polite to call people ``insensitive clods", especially people like Gabin.
If you like fvwm, good for you. In fact if you really did, you would write something positive about it here rather than something negative about Gabin.
Regards,
- vihan
Vihan Pandey wrote:
My personal take on the matter is that since most desktop users spend
most of their time in a desktop environment, it's actually more
sensible
to use the desktop's name - Gnome, KDE, XFCE etc.
i use fvwm.. you insensitive clod!!
Dude, its not polite to call people ``insensitive clods", especially people like Gabin.
Dude!! don't dude me..
If you like fvwm, good for you. In fact if you really did, you would write something positive about it here rather than something negative about Gabin.
sigh.. no sense of humo(u)r see: http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/Insensitive_clod
i am starting to like this list ;-)
cheers, - dhawal
On 03-Jan-07, at 7:07 PM, Vihan Pandey wrote:
i use fvwm.. you insensitive clod!!
Dude, its not polite to call people ``insensitive clods", especially people like Gabin.
come on - he make joke
On Thursday 04 January 2007 11:20, Vihan Pandey wrote:
come on - he make joke
i know :-)
albeit a crude one.
People call freesoftware opensource. Now that is crude and deep sacrilege too boot. Some even accused god of begging for credit. For the humour challenged and deeply singed by the roaring flames that is a joke. Honest.
On Thu, 2007-01-04 at 11:45 +0530, jtd wrote:
People call freesoftware opensource. Now that is crude and deep sacrilege too boot. Some even accused god of begging for credit. For the humour challenged and deeply singed by the roaring flames that is a joke. Honest.
You know, it's quite common for gods (or for their followers) to beg for credit for any number of things. Last time I checked there was quite furore over credit for the universe, its current state and where it is headed. In that particular war, the flames _really_ burn.
:)
-gabin
On Thursday 04 January 2007 12:26, Gabin Kattukaran wrote:
On Thu, 2007-01-04 at 11:45 +0530, jtd wrote:
People call freesoftware opensource. Now that is crude and deep sacrilege too boot. Some even accused god of begging for credit. For the humour challenged and deeply singed by the roaring flames that is a joke. Honest.
You know, it's quite common for gods (or for their followers) to beg for credit for any number of things. Last time I checked there was quite furore over credit for the universe, its current state and where it is headed. In that particular war, the flames _really_ burn.
Ya. With planets being demoted to also ran asteroids and the earth being declared flat. And we are worried about juxtaposed alpahbets being free or open. Heck I am off to protesting about Pluto being God - not merely a demoted semi-planet.
Sometime Today, j cobbled together some glyphs to say:
being declared flat. And we are worried about juxtaposed alpahbets
juxtaposed _letters_ of the alpahbet.
being free or open. Heck I am off to protesting about Pluto being God
Umm, Pluto is a Dog, not a God. Mickey Mouse's dog to be specific.
On Thursday 04 January 2007 15:06, Philip Tellis wrote:
Sometime Today, j cobbled together some glyphs to say:
being declared flat. And we are worried about juxtaposed alpahbets
juxtaposed _letters_ of the alpahbet.
being free or open. Heck I am off to protesting about Pluto being God
Umm, Pluto is a Dog, not a God. Mickey Mouse's dog to be specific.
Trust u to kill pjs. I am getting one of these for the next meet. http://www.ebuyer.com/UK/product/115889/rb/24101214779
Trust u to kill pjs. I am getting one of these for the next meet. http://www.ebuyer.com/UK/product/115889/rb/24101214779
People create the strangest things!
Anyway, i think the most dangerous feature of the launcher is the last line on that page :
"The USB Missile Launcher comes with software compatible with Windows 2000 and Windows XP and is connected to your PC or laptop via USB."
Fire at will !!!
:-)
Regards,
- vihan
Philip Tellis wrote:
Sometime Today, j cobbled together some glyphs to say:
being free or open. Heck I am off to protesting about Pluto being God
Umm, Pluto is a Dog, not a God. Mickey Mouse's dog to be specific.
it is yet unknown whether or not Pluto is a dog.. primary reason being the existence of Goofy (Mickey Mouse's friend) who also claims to be a dog. Walt Disney's and Mickey Mouse's head exploded trying to clear this confusion.
The only time Pluto and Goofy got together was in Hong Kong.. when both were surprisingly standing on their feet.. thus causing reasons to believe that none of them are dogs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:HK_Disneyland_Goofy_n_fans.jpg
cheers, - dhawal
PS: For the non-believers.. this is an important piece of trivia and has nothing to do with Linux.
Sometime Today, DD cobbled together some glyphs to say:
i use fvwm.. you insensitive clod!!
if you use fvwm, you must have really thick skin. I don't believe insensitivity would get to you.
!!
Philip Tellis wrote:
Sometime Today, DD cobbled together some glyphs to say:
i use fvwm.. you insensitive clod!!
if you use fvwm, you must have really thick skin. I don't believe insensitivity would get to you.
Umm no *that* was a joke.. i do not use fvwm (unless desperately forced to do so) and was a KDE user. Currently being an 'idiot user' i use gnome. It was Linus (and not me) whose quote was interpreted as 'GNOME users are idiots'.. http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/000390.html
.. more flames please.
Hi,
There's some questions that came up in my mind about the brochure. I'm sure many of us have that answers to most in our minds but I feel it's necessary that we get them out on record so that we're clear about the direction of this promotion campaign.
* Where do we distribute the brochure(s)? * How do we time it? * What audience are we expecting? * What is the tangible commodity that we are promoting? * Do these questions need a separate Wiki page? ;-)
Please come up with more such questions (and answers) so that we're very clear about where we want to go with this.
Regards,
On 03-Jan-07, at 10:52 PM, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
- Where do we distribute the brochure(s)?
the best place would be through hardware dealers. And we need to get some linux friendly hardware dealers on our wiki. I know Rony is one - but he is probably too shy to put his name, address etc up, so can someone else do it? Also I feel that other list members with leverage (that is they make frequent hardware purchases) should try to convince their hardware suppliers to go for the 'linux friendly' certification. They get to have their info put on the wiki, and all they need to do is put up a linux poster in their shop and have a stack of brochures to distribute. I think that if we can make one or two of them an offer they cannot refuse, others will Q up to be on the site.
Hi All!
On 1/3/07, Siddhesh Poyarekar <siddhesh dot poyarekar at gmail at com> wrote:
- Where do we distribute the brochure(s)?
- How do we time it?
- What audience are we expecting?
- What is the tangible commodity that we are promoting?
- Do these questions need a separate Wiki page? ;-)
Who is going to foot the bill for printing/distributing these brochures?
What benefit for him/her/it for footing the bill?
Please come up with more such questions (and answers) so that we're very clear about where we want to go with this.
-- Siddhesh Poyarekar http://siddhesh.tk
With regards,
On 04-Jan-07, at 12:54 PM, Dinesh Shah wrote:
Who is going to foot the bill for printing/distributing these brochures?
how much will the bill come to? can someone give a quote for various numbers. I can certainly contribute - my organisation too
What benefit for him/her/it for footing the bill?
moksha. punya. or if he is a business man, he gets to print his name address and a small advertisement on the box at the bottom of the last page. (this is for linux friendly dealers, institutes etc)
Dinesh Shah wrote:
Hi All!
On 1/3/07, Siddhesh Poyarekar <siddhesh dot poyarekar at gmail at com> wrote:
- Where do we distribute the brochure(s)?
- How do we time it?
- What audience are we expecting?
- What is the tangible commodity that we are promoting?
- Do these questions need a separate Wiki page? ;-)
Who is going to foot the bill for printing/distributing these brochures?
What benefit for him/her/it for footing the bill?
I am planning to print the brochures as per my budget permit. I plan to distribute them to my customers and whoever may need to know about Linux. This is because leisure reading can be more influential than an on-the-spot lecture. He takes it home and shows it to his family too or his friends. The purpose is mainly to create awareness even if they don't actually install it.
I recollect a time when I was with a client who was trying to sell me the networked sale concept that required me to be silent for 1 hour while he gave me the lecture. I was sitting across his table and simply dozed off after a few minutes. He felt offended and stopped the talk.
Regards,
Rony.
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On 1/4/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
I am planning to print the brochures as per my budget permit. I plan to
Do let us know the cost of printing. If it's feasible I guess some us could pitch in with a bit (I could pitch in a couple of hundred) so that we can distribute to other channels as well.
If there are college students on this list (I'm sure there are) please let us know when your technical festivals are. We could target those for brochure distribution as well.
I'm not sure how well brochures will work in offices. Any other places we could distribute?
Regards,
Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
On 1/4/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
I am planning to print the brochures as per my budget permit. I plan to
Do let us know the cost of printing. If it's feasible I guess some us could pitch in with a bit (I could pitch in a couple of hundred) so that we can distribute to other channels as well.
If there are college students on this list (I'm sure there are) please let us know when your technical festivals are. We could target those for brochure distribution as well.
I'm not sure how well brochures will work in offices. Any other places we could distribute?
Right now I want the text to be finalized so I can move on. I think now there is nothing much to discuss on the topics mentioned so I can take a printout and go to stage 2.
Regards,
Rony.
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Rony wrote:
Right now I want the text to be finalized so I can move on. I think now there is nothing much to discuss on the topics mentioned so I can take a printout and go to stage 2.
The text is now finalized. Since it is too big for an A4 page with folds in landscape format, I am planning to use 2 Letter or A$ size pages in portrait format but as a folded brochure. That gives me 4 sides to print on and will give space for the screen shots too. The folder look will overcome the ugliness of an A4 or Letter size page.
I need to create the last paragraph with credits etc. and our list should appear in it so please add that part in the wiki. Do not change anything else.
http://db.glug-bom.org/wiki/index.php/Linux_Brochure_Quick_Guide
Regards,
Rony.
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On 04-Jan-07, at 11:25 PM, Rony wrote:
we could distribute?
Right now I want the text to be finalized so I can move on. I think now there is nothing much to discuss on the topics mentioned so I can take a printout and go to stage 2.
consider it finalised - feel free to trim extraneous stuff
Sometime Today, DD cobbled together some glyphs to say:
if you use fvwm, you must have really thick skin. I don't believe insensitivity would get to you.
Umm no *that* was a joke..
I know ;)
On Wed, 2007-01-03 at 19:58 +0530, Dhawal Doshy wrote:
Philip Tellis wrote:
Sometime Today, DD cobbled together some glyphs to say:
i use fvwm.. you insensitive clod!!
if you use fvwm, you must have really thick skin. I don't believe insensitivity would get to you.
Umm no *that* was a joke.. i do not use fvwm (unless desperately forced to do so) and was a KDE user. Currently being an 'idiot user' i use gnome. It was Linus (and not me) whose quote was interpreted as 'GNOME users are idiots'.. http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/000390.html
.. more flames please.
hey dhawal, looks like you got caught on your own trip wire. no harm done. :)
-gabin
Gabin Kattukaran wrote:
On Wed, 2007-01-03 at 19:58 +0530, Dhawal Doshy wrote:
Philip Tellis wrote:
Sometime Today, DD cobbled together some glyphs to say:
i use fvwm.. you insensitive clod!!
if you use fvwm, you must have really thick skin. I don't believe insensitivity would get to you.
Umm no *that* was a joke.. i do not use fvwm (unless desperately forced to do so) and was a KDE user. Currently being an 'idiot user' i use gnome. It was Linus (and not me) whose quote was interpreted as 'GNOME users are idiots'.. http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/000390.html
.. more flames please.
hey dhawal, looks like you got caught on your own trip wire. no harm done. :)
yep.. no harm done. You appear to have been around for a long time and i assumed you'd get the joke (and looks like you did!!). i seldom take anything seriously (including all the hate mail so far).. i am really starting to like this list (btw the list *is* calming down).
Now for some thing more serious.. when is then next monthly meet and what is the agenda? i'd like to be a part of it (if its not a Sunday).
cheers, - dhawal
On Thursday 04 January 2007 12:44, Dhawal Doshy wrote:
take anything seriously (including all the hate mail so far).. i am really starting to like this list (btw the list *is* calming down).
awww...we're lucky that you finally started to like us! Hamare toh naseeb khul gaye! ( hehe j/k )
Now for some thing more serious.. when is then next monthly meet and what is the agenda? i'd like to be a part of it (if its not a Sunday).
Not on Feb 4! Please NOT on Feb 4! :(
Dinesh Joshi wrote:
On Thursday 04 January 2007 12:44, Dhawal Doshy wrote:
take anything seriously (including all the hate mail so far).. i am really starting to like this list (btw the list *is* calming down).
awww...we're lucky that you finally started to like us! Hamare toh naseeb khul gaye! ( hehe j/k )
naseeb is incorrect.. the apt words being 'bhaag' OR 'bhaagya'
Now for some thing more serious.. when is then next monthly meet and what is the agenda? i'd like to be a part of it (if its not a Sunday).
Not on Feb 4! Please NOT on Feb 4! :(
Are the meets traditionally held on Sundays? why?
On Thursday 04 January 2007 13:11, Dhawal Doshy wrote:
awww...we're lucky that you finally started to like us! Hamare toh naseeb khul gaye! ( hehe j/k )
naseeb is incorrect.. the apt words being 'bhaag' OR 'bhaagya'
Is it a crime for not knowing ones national language! Its not my first language :P Hehe... kidding...lol ;)
Now for some thing more serious.. when is then next monthly meet and what is the agenda? i'd like to be a part of it (if its not a Sunday).
Not on Feb 4! Please NOT on Feb 4! :(
Are the meets traditionally held on Sundays? why?
We're in Mumbai buddy, people are generally free on Sundays and I am no veteran of LUG meets so I can't really comment if its a tradition or not...
On Thursday 28 December 2006 00:09, Roshan wrote:
--- Mrugesh Karnik mrugeshkarnik@gmail.com wrote:
Ok. Apparently, I have a few comments rather than one or two, for which I've already sent two different emails...
<removed comments>
Hey dude, you have a Wiki Account. Go ahead and edit the article, in such a way, that the current and the new content is acceptable, to the least, to all the GLUG-BOM wikipedians.
I wouldn't know what's acceptable, hence I'm commenting here. If the others agree with what I've said, they can put it up. I would delete the GNU/Linux thing from where it doesn't belong and that would not be acceptable I guess. Hence, I stay away.
P.S. I would have put up a section about freedom which would talk of GNU, of course, instead of going GNU/Linux everywhere. Credit must be given where it is due. The robbing others' credit part angers me.
Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
Ok. Apparently, I have a few comments rather than one or two, for which I've already sent two different emails...
<quote> Customise - All code is available for reuse </quote>
The typical end user couldn't care less. Use KDE as an example. Windows simply does not offer you that kind of control, that easily. For example, no need to install 3rd party non-free (cost wise) software just to install themes.
Choice is an important point. With Windows, the user is stuck to the default interface. In Linux we have GNOME, KDE, XFCE as Desktop Environments that are different and offer choice. Plus the various Window Managers. E17 - do not forget about it. It rocks.
Keep it simple for the windows user. Too many details will confuse him.
<quote> Platform Indpendence - Runs on Intel x86, ARM, Alpha, Sparc, Mips, SH, Sharc, Power Omap and many other architectures. </quote>
A windows user does not use non-ix86 platforms.
Would I really care, as an end user? I'd only worry about Intel x86 and AMD64 in most cases.
Hmm. Many devices work out of the box. For example, just plug in your Sony Ericsson mobile phone and it works! No extra software to install, no drivers needed.
<quote> Security - secure by virtue of being a multiuser multitasking networked system by design. One of the spinoffs is that GNU/Linux is essentially virus free </quote>
Again, lets keep it less technical.
Add spyware. Major concern these days. This also means no installation of 3rd party software.
Its is mentioned. Viruses, trojans and spyware.
Also, no need to use pirated software or cracks. Nearly everything is free as in cost and legitimate.
Also mention the fact that when you install a Linux Distro, all the software is installed, instead of having to install it manually. Huge plus.
Both are good points. Do merge them into the text.
Software installation can be a plus. No need to hunt various sites for software downloads. Just open some GUI and look for the software you want and click install. Automatically downloaded and installed. Quite likeable.
Yes I mentioned package managers and repos.
The LiveCDs are loved, trust me. Newbies love the ability to pop in a cd and check out software without having to install it. The point should be moved higher up the order.
Yes this point can be added too so that the user is free to try out the cd before having to install it.
Whom exactly is this document aimed at? Newbies? I would guess so. Please bear in mind the target audience before writing. I would rather split up the document for Desktops and Servers.
Normal windows users only. No server side.
You forgot to mention the features that certain apps offer that aren't available in Windows, for example Amarok, superkaramba... And Beryl!
Thats too in-depth.
Regards,
Rony.
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On Thursday 28 December 2006 00:41, Rony wrote:
<quote> Platform Indpendence - Runs on Intel x86, ARM, Alpha, Sparc, Mips, SH, Sharc, Power Omap and many other architectures. </quote>
A windows user does not use non-ix86 platforms.
U are forgetting that a hughe number of doze users develop software for non x86 platforms and never even heard of Linux. This is particularly important for engineering students.
Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
Ok. flame wars, I don't care. But, using GNU/Linux and then pointing to only the GNU's view of the matter is very partial.
Consider the fact that if you're talking to normal users, you're looking at a desktop system, which typically means Xorg, KDE, Mozilla etc. So I wouldn't use GNU/Linux there, because that is NOT a GNU operating system. Its a Free and Open Source operating system, which is NOT equivalent to only GNU. That's rubbish.
I have a better solution. Avoid this war entirely and simply use the words "A Linux based Distribution". It could apply to "A FreeBSD based Distribution" too.
Lets avoid this at least for this idea. Please spare me. :-D
Regards,
Rony.
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On Thursday 28 December 2006 00:30, Rony wrote:
Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
Ok. flame wars, I don't care. But, using GNU/Linux and then pointing to only the GNU's view of the matter is very partial.
Consider the fact that if you're talking to normal users, you're looking at a desktop system, which typically means Xorg, KDE, Mozilla etc. So I wouldn't use GNU/Linux there, because that is NOT a GNU operating system. Its a Free and Open Source operating system, which is NOT equivalent to only GNU. That's rubbish.
I have a better solution. Avoid this war entirely and simply use the words "A Linux based Distribution". It could apply to "A FreeBSD based Distribution" too.
Lets avoid this at least for this idea. Please spare me. :-D
Exactly what I'm trying to do. I'm not the one going GNU everywhere. Anyway, good point. I should control my anger. I'll keep away from this from now.
Oh, hehehe...
<quote> GNU/Linux is a free and open source operating system with a full graphical window desktop, that is a joint product of Linus Torvalds who developed its kernel (core), the GNU organisation that contributed program tools to build software applications over it and thousands of programers who contribute to the world of free software. </quote>
See the irony? many bodies mentioned, yet just two accredited in the name.
Do something. create an OS which does NOT have Xorg, KDE, Apache, MySQL, Postfix, Mozilla, OpenSSH etc etc etc. In essence, only the software developed directly by the GNU project. Do NOT include software that's under the GPL but not developed directly by GNU. Do NOT include the software that's not under the GPL. I doubt any GNU projects use any other license than the GPL. Use the Linux kernel. Call the OS GNU/Linux.
Thank you.
On 12/28/06, Mrugesh Karnik mrugeshkarnik@gmail.com wrote:
On Thursday 28 December 2006 00:30, Rony wrote:
Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
Ok. flame wars, I don't care. But, using GNU/Linux and then pointing to only the GNU's view of the matter is very partial.
Consider the fact that if you're talking to normal users, you're looking at a desktop system, which typically means Xorg, KDE, Mozilla etc. So I wouldn't use GNU/Linux there, because that is NOT a GNU operating system. Its a Free and Open Source operating system, which is NOT equivalent to only GNU. That's rubbish.
I have a better solution. Avoid this war entirely and simply use the words "A Linux based Distribution". It could apply to "A FreeBSD based Distribution" too.
Lets avoid this at least for this idea. Please spare me. :-D
Exactly what I'm trying to do. I'm not the one going GNU everywhere. Anyway, good point. I should control my anger. I'll keep away from this from now.
Oh, hehehe...
<quote> GNU/Linux is a free and open source operating system with a full graphical window desktop, that is a joint product of Linus Torvalds who developed its kernel (core), the GNU organisation that contributed program tools to build software applications over it and thousands of programers who contribute to the world of free software. </quote>
See the irony? many bodies mentioned, yet just two accredited in the name.
Do something. create an OS which does NOT have Xorg, KDE, Apache, MySQL, Postfix, Mozilla, OpenSSH etc etc etc. In essence, only the software developed directly by the GNU project. Do NOT include software that's under the GPL but not developed directly by GNU. Do NOT include the software that's not under the GPL. I doubt any GNU projects use any other license than the GPL. Use the Linux kernel. Call the OS GNU/Linux.
Thank you.
--
Mrugesh Karnik GPG Key 0xBA6F1DA8 Public key on http://wwwkeys.pgp.net
The easiest way to hurt Linux is to have the Linux-enthusiasts fight over various issues like this. While they keep fighting over these issues, the others keep taking the market.
Hey, friends, let's work to make Linux grow, while these discussions can continue on a side. And while the discussions keep going, let's be clear that all those who work on Linux (on any license/s) are anyway Linux users. Some who don't like this, need to read more on Freedom as a subject.
Ashok
Sometime on Dec 27, Roshan assembled some asciibets to say:
However, if the list members feel, that the mailing list is best for communication / discussion regarding the article, no problems! :)
discuss the article on the article's talk page. that way the thread stays in one place. a user's talk page should be used to communicate with the user.
On Wednesday 27 December 2006 07:22, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
php apps?
doesn't matter what the app has been written in. The point is that all these bulletin boards have captchas to prevent automated registration by bots but since the captchas are simple enough for a simple OCR engine to break, the bots get through...
Sometime on Dec 25, Kenneth Gonsalves assembled some asciibets to say:
then how does wikipedia manage it? what i do is, first you enter email
wikipedia has far more volunteers to keep things clean than ilug-bom does. I've seen loads of spam on wikipedia, and I've seen some of them stay there for months before being cleaned up. Edits with profanity are generally cleaned up automatically, but others aren't.
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പ്രവീണ്|Praveen