Hello All,
I have been pondering over some ideas to use technology against terrorism. Please keep this thread related to technology only without getting into Govt. bashing.
The ideas have been borrowed from the old kings and emperors as well as server room security.
The first part deals with providing wireless ID cards to all citizens of India, starting with all the cities and going into the villages. These cards can be radio, magnetic or plain optical like the bar code stickers that are momentarily scanned before a red light scanner. The optical option is the cheapest and is already used in shops for making final bills. Every railway station complex should be sealed and everyone entering the station must produce their ID card to be scanned for keeping a record of everyone entering and exiting the complex. Along with that, they must face a camera that records their faces too. No ID card means no entry.
The same security system can be used in all public complexes like Govt. offices, schools, colleges. Even BEST buses can be fillted with these scanners at the entrance and exit of the bus. Anyway, most buses are single decker and allow only one thin person or half fat person to enter at a time. That way we will also learn to queue properly and the passengers can get in like humans instead of being herded like cattle by the conductors doing an early `ting ting'.
The other part is to use the security system that old kings and emperors used. They created walled cities where entry and exit was restricted by guards manning the fort gates. All major cities can put up an international-border grade barbed wire fence with gates for entry and exit. Everyone entering and exiting the city must provide an ID card and also be photographed for records. Some system should also be in place for outstation trains to go through this check. Every foreigner who lands in India must get a temporary ID card made at the airport to be used just like other Indian ID cards.
Whenever there is any terrorist strike or a major armed robbery/dacoity etc., the gates will be shut for some hours, preventing the culprits from simply walking away and catching the next train to freedom. This is inconvenient, but a good deterrent. Extra checking will be done after that to scan all those who leave after any attack.
Well thats all for now, any comments or suggestions? Positive or negative, all invited.
Regards,
Rony.
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The ID cards idea is very old and has been contemplated by the govt. many times, but they havent implemented it, because there are so many people in Mumbai who even dont have ration cards, consider the thousands of homeless poeple in Mumbai.
I like the second idea, the entry/exit doors thing, but even if you do that, it wont be possible for the police to catch the culprit in a city of millions. Well, its not impossible but surely challenging.
rony, the higher-tech we go the worse the battle becomes. technology is a nuisance. why do you think the CIA was spying on internet communications using AT&T(?) ?? To fight terrorism we must go as low as possible atleast when it comes to technology.
On 7/19/06, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
rony, the higher-tech we go the worse the battle becomes. technology is a nuisance. why do you think the CIA was spying on internet communications using AT&T(?) ?? To fight terrorism we must go as low as possible atleast when it comes to technology.
The bottomline is "No amount of technology can solve social problems".
-- Vinayak
On 7/19/06, Vinayak Hegde vinayakh@gmail.com wrote:
The bottomline is "No amount of technology can solve social problems".
How about if we discuss FOSS based solutions to this? ;)
Kidding! I was actually wondering how this sensitive, intelligent but completely offtopic thread was allowed to continue for so long.
Regards, Siddhesh
On Wed, Jul 19, 2006 at 11:39:06PM +0530, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
I was actually wondering how this sensitive, intelligent but completely offtopic thread was allowed to continue for so long.
Sorry about not putting the OT tag.
Regards,
Rony
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On 19-Jul-06, at 11:03 PM, Vinayak Hegde wrote:
The bottomline is "No amount of technology can solve social problems".
-- Vinayak
is this the same vinayak that objected to this thread?
On 7/19/06, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Hello All,
[snipped content irrelevant to the list]
This mail has nothing to do with Linux or FOSS technology in general. While some amount of offtopic mail (explicitly marked OT) is ok, most people would welcome content which is relevant to FOSS -- which is why they subscribed to it in the first place. Even the OT tags has been abused often. Atleast one person on this list has been hawking books for ages (even though his mails are marked OT).
To put in a concise manner, this might not be the best forum to air ideas related to technology unrelated to FOSS. Sorry if I come across as rude but I value relevancy as do majority of people on this list. Besides these mails go to 1000+ members. Admin can probably give the exact number. You are wasting their time and energy.
-- Vinayak
On Wed, Jul 19, 2006 at 10:54:50PM +0530, Vinayak Hegde wrote:
On 7/19/06, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Hello All,
[snipped content irrelevant to the list]
This mail has nothing to do with Linux or FOSS technology in general. While some amount of offtopic mail (explicitly marked OT) is ok, most people would welcome content which is relevant to FOSS -- which is why they subscribed to it in the first place.
[snip]
To put in a concise manner, this might not be the best forum to air ideas related to technology unrelated to FOSS. Sorry if I come across as rude but I value relevancy as do majority of people on this list. Besides these mails go to 1000+ members. Admin can probably give the exact number. You are wasting their time and energy.
There are many mails on this list having topics irrelevant to FOSS, the most popular ones are Govt. bashing and ISP lashing and now blog. The purpose of this mail was to have a positive approach towards solving problems through use of technology, instead of simply criticising as in the earlier list mails on the blasts. Even if we feel that some type of technology is not feasable, sooner or later we will have to think about it and impliment it. We can't have Z+++ security for politicians and none for the public.
Social and political problems apart, the common man is unnecessarily suffering the brunt of terrorism. Many of us on this list use the Western railway, including I and by the grace of God we are all still here to write about FOSS. This was not a local roadside accident that we simply ignore. We will be facing more attacks in future. We cannot root out terrorism through trechnology but we can atlest use it to protect ourselves to the maximum and reduce the possibility of attacks in our environments. Thats why the developed nations are better off with security.
Some of us on this list are using FOSS for security systems and access control so it is a relevant topic for this list. Before any concrete idea or suggestion can be given to the Govt., first there should be some discussion on how it can really work. Everyone is free to put in their own alternate technical ideas for security.
Regards,
Rony.
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On Friday 21 July 2006 10:01 am, Rony wrote:
but we can atlest use it to protect ourselves to the maximum and reduce the possibility of attacks in our environments. Thats why the developed nations are better off with security.
The track record speaks differently. But that is because technology tends to concentrate people in tight vulnerable groups - the trend has slowly started to reverse. If u set off a blast in talasari or asangaon u will be lucky to hit a stray dog.
Some of us on this list are using FOSS for security systems and access control so it is a relevant topic for this list. Before any concrete idea or suggestion can be given to the Govt., first there should be some discussion on how it can really work. Everyone is free to put in their own alternate technical ideas for security.
This is very relevant. should the government build it's database on uknowwhat we are all going to have an even bigger problem.
Sometime on Fri, Jul 21, 2006 at 10:01:07AM +0530, Rony said:
There are many mails on this list having topics irrelevant to FOSS, the most popular ones are Govt. bashing and ISP lashing and now blog. The purpose of this mail was to have a positive approach towards solving problems through use of technology, instead of simply criticising as in the earlier list mails on the blasts. Even if we feel that some type of
[snip]
Rony, we need to understand that we are not a general _technology_ mailing list. While some [OT] posts are okay once in a while, but its irritating when all the mails recieved from this list bear an [OT] tag.
And then again, there is a thin line that divides offtopic mails and those which are communal in nature. The thread about blocking of blogs by indian government may be classified as okay since it talks about freedom of expression.
But, that's just what i think. I'd like to hear what other list members think of it.
Anurag
On Fri, Jul 21, 2006 at 02:39:20PM +0530, Anurag wrote:
Rony, we need to understand that we are not a general _technology_ mailing list. While some [OT] posts are okay once in a while, but its irritating when all the mails recieved from this list bear an [OT] tag.
OK agreed. One last question in this thread to everyone.
Question: As a FOSS group with a variety of top level experts working on computer systems, what can we offer in terms of technology to create a more secure environment in our city?
If we don't have any ideas, then simply ignore the mail and avoid replying in order to avoid inconvenience to list members.
Regards,
Rony.
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Dear Ron,
On Fri, 2006-07-21 at 21:29, Rony wrote:
Question: As a FOSS group with a variety of top level experts working on computer systems, what can we offer in terms of technology to create a more secure environment in our city?
You can't. No amount of technology can give you security against human ingenuity.
You are recommended to read Isaac Asimov's small science-fiction story called "Superiority".
If we don't have any ideas, then simply ignore the mail and avoid replying in order to avoid inconvenience to list members.
Hope this will bring this thread to a close.
Regards,
Rony.
With regards,
On Friday 21 July 2006 16:58, Dinesh Shah wrote:
You can't. No amount of technology can give you security against human ingenuity.
You are recommended to read Isaac Asimov's small science-fiction story called "Superiority".
Humans are the weakest link in security - Kevin Mitnick
We set them apart, we deny them houses in societies, we do nothing to educate them and uplift them from their pathetic and ghettoised living state, we do everything to prevent them from working with us and then we expect that they should not target us.
Honestly pal, I dont believe this. Tell me one school which denies admissions to Muslim folks. I've never come across a situation where Ive thought renting a house to a Muslim is a threat or something. In fact, I regretted renting my House to a Mallu Christian who screwed it up royally.
From that time Mallus are a total No No. Sorry I am not trying to be
politically correct here.
(Any Mallu, if he is feeling bad about this can make himself feel well by describing some bad experience with a Maharashtrian if he wants.)
Secondly The level of illitracy and poverty among Muslims has nothing to do with Hindus not allowing them to, but its their own problem. look at Pakistan and Bangladesh and its the same there. They are Muslim countries, at least they should show some better numbers than India? I think its a cultural thing for them to be ok with less, little or no education at all. Hindus cant help such things. Hindus have similar problem which they themselves are grappling with.
Saudi Arabia has all the money on earth but no technological know how and higher education levels. You see now what I am getting at? Its a cultural thing for Muslims.
And yeah. I work in a software firm and at least there I dont think we make an effort to keep Muslims out of the way!! for last 2 projects my manager had been a Muslim girl. Not once that I thought that she was 'Muslim'. She was just my manager thats all.
Remember, If a mother remains uneducated she will have little interest in educating her children. This is the major problem with the Muslim as well as Hindu communities as a whole.
No one hates Muslims. At least I consider them just another set of Indians as any other. They are NOT Muslims first, but are Indians and then whatever.
Sometime on Fri, Jul 21, 2006 at 08:18:09PM -0500, Harshal Vaidya said:
We set them apart, we deny them houses in societies, we do nothing to educate them and uplift them from their pathetic and ghettoised living state, we do everything to prevent them from working with us and then we expect that they should not target us.
Honestly pal, I dont believe this. Tell me one school which denies admissions to Muslim folks. I've never come across a situation where Ive thought renting a house to a Muslim is a threat or something. In fact, I regretted renting my House to a Mallu Christian who screwed it up royally.
From that time Mallus are a total No No. Sorry I am not trying to be
politically correct here.
(Any Mallu, if he is feeling bad about this can make himself feel well by describing some bad experience with a Maharashtrian if he wants.)
Harshal, Enough of your nonsense and communal talk. You have been put on moderation for a month. Do think twice next time you post a reply to this list. If you feel offended by this then yes it was intended and its your problem, you called for it.
Rony, DO NOT send _ANY_ ``Off Topic'' mails to this list ever again. Your threads have a potential to degenerate into controversies about everything other than Linux.
List Members, Please keep the focus of your mails on linux and related technologies, and do not post replies to potential trouble makers.
Anurag
On Saturday 22 July 2006 01:18, Harshal Vaidya wrote:
Honestly pal, I dont believe this. Tell me one school which denies admissions to Muslim folks. I've never come across a situation where Ive thought renting a house to a Muslim is a threat or something. In fact, I regretted renting my House to a Mallu Christian who screwed it up royally.
From that time Mallus are a total No No. Sorry I am not trying to be politically correct here.
Umm...I'm sorry but I dont agree with you at this point. See, you're stereotyping people. Stereotypes are bad.
No one hates Muslims. At least I consider them just another set of Indians as any other. They are NOT Muslims first, but are Indians and then whatever.
Another set of Indians? I agree with the second part but not first. They are just plain old Indians. Not another _set_ of Indians.
The first part deals with providing wireless ID cards to all citizens of
India, starting with all the cities and going into the villages. These cards can be radio, magnetic or plain optical like the bar code stickers that are momentarily scanned before a red light scanner. The optical option is the cheapest and is already used in shops for making final bills.
Your writing made me remember of my school days ..I use to write all such type of stuff in my diary..
Just think about it .Voter ID card has been launched by Indina Govt and has been pushed/considered as a necessary peice of document to vote and as well as for other govt related work like passport, Ration card , govt scholerships, I mean it has been considered as a important document.
Do you know how many people have these crads ..not more then 40% and i have seen people having more then 2 Voter ID cards at the border villages/cities.
Now..we are also not sure about the number of people has come to India from near by countries ..many have come by legal route and many by illegal. No count of them.
Making code stickers that are momentarily scanned before a red light scanner is tough (as nothing is impossible) in India ..doesn't fit as per our basic infrastructure of the country.
But I am agree with you ..no doubt technology can be very helpfull against terrorism. But there are few questions,
1. Which technolgy and how's it will be approved by Govt to get implemented. (Because just talking/discussing doesn't lead us anywhere if we don't know, where is the way to implement it )
2. I know already govt is working on few ideas and they are very eager to use "some technologies" against terrorism but whole work processing of the Indian govt is some how different ....I mean to say ..whatever we discuss here, whatever we suggest here during these discussions not going to make a difference if we don't include the right people in the discussion, right people, who can translate these important point to the right people in the govt in a way as they understand it .
So I appreciate your efforts for suggesting technology against terrorism but not able to see the positive results. I will be the most happiest person if someone comment me and say "Yes it is the right forum in term of getting the positive results from these discussions".
Regards Rajeev
On 7/19/06, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
The first part deals with providing wireless ID cards to all citizens of India, starting with all the cities and going into the villages. These cards can be radio, magnetic or plain optical like the bar code stickers that are momentarily scanned before a red light scanner. The optical option is the cheapest and is already used in shops for making final bills. Every railway station complex should be sealed and everyone entering the station must produce their ID card to be scanned for keeping a record of everyone entering and exiting the complex. Along with that, they must face a camera that records their faces too. No ID card means no entry.
It's very expensive. And will create a HUGE bottleneck during rush hours. Also, lost/stolen IDs would mean a long beareaucratic procedure to get another one, which would mean a long vacation from work/school/college.
The other part is to use the security system that old kings and emperors used. They created walled cities where entry and exit was restricted by guards manning the fort gates. All major cities can put up an
We already have "Check Nakas". Different thing they don't work as well.
for outstation trains to go through this check. Every foreigner who lands in India must get a temporary ID card made at the airport to be used just like other Indian ID cards.
I think immigration check-in takes care of that, doesn't it?
Whenever there is any terrorist strike or a major armed robbery/dacoity etc., the gates will be shut for some hours, preventing the culprits from simply walking away and catching the next train to freedom. This is inconvenient, but a good deterrent. Extra checking will be done after that to scan all those who leave after any attack.
We have that provision already. It's called a curfew with a "Nakabandi". The worst security decision after this blast was to allow central railways and all other to continue plying. there should have been an immediate curfew+nakabandi in place, which did not happen.
You didn't add the most important point. All the technology should use FLOSS software ;)
Siddhesh
On 19/07/06 23:34 +0530, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote: <snip>
We have that provision already. It's called a curfew with a "Nakabandi". The worst security decision after this blast was to allow central railways and all other to continue plying. there should have been an immediate curfew+nakabandi in place, which did not happen.
That wouldn't have helped.
Devdas Bhagat
On Wednesday 19 July 2006 10:18 pm, Rony wrote:
Hello All,
I have been pondering over some ideas to use technology against terrorism. Please keep this thread related to technology only without getting into Govt. bashing.
All of these have been tried at various times in variuos forms with disastorous results. Technology will provide you with huge datasets. More the tech more the data. what is missing is the ability to sift through this useless data. The results are so abysymal because the terrorist is applying his mind to circumvent restrictions. Also more the restrictions , more the inconvenince so legit persons start bypassing them. And the peddlers of tech magic potions always gloss over the loopholes.
Terrorism is a political and social problem. where do u get grenades from - Indian Army is a handy supplier, that bastion of preemtive terror USA, Ex soviet states, tinpot regimes propped up by the likes of US, France, India etc.. There were terrorist in Germany and Japan Bader Meinhof and Red brigade, IRA, ETNA, several in south america, Africa is a bastion of government sponsored terror. Very many were in the wealthiest regions of the world and white christian anglo saxon. "Islamic terrorism" is perhaps unique in having a global identity and single goal. But even they have to rely heavily on the likes of US/UK/Israel/Soviet/Indian stupidity to find recruits. It could also be something that happens to a species when it becomes totally dominant and fails to recognise it's excesses.
Terrorism is a political and social problem. where do u get grenades
from - Indian Army is a handy supplier, that bastion of preemtive terror USA, Ex soviet states, tinpot regimes propped up by the likes of US, France, India etc..
We need to convince every Muslim in India that we as Hindus are not a threat to them but they are just like any other citizens completely.
If they get convinced, we have killed terrorism at the root. We dont need technology.
Thanks and Regards, Harshal Vaidya.
------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.lakhpatipage.com Cheapest way to advertise on the internet -------------------------------------------------------------
On Friday 21 July 2006 07:45 am, Harshal Vaidya wrote:
Terrorism is a political and social problem. where do u get grenades
from - Indian Army is a handy supplier, that bastion of preemtive terror USA, Ex soviet states, tinpot regimes propped up by the likes of US, France, India etc..
We need to convince every Muslim in India that we as Hindus are not a threat to them but they are just like any other citizens completely.
If they get convinced, we have killed terrorism at the root. We dont need technology.
That is one side and indeed very true. The 2nd perhaps more important is the very very urgent need for internal change in the moslem community. Madrassa reforms, wakf board democracy, stringent opposition to rabel rouser politicians, empowerment of women and this one goes to all relegious communities strictly no political activity in religious institutions. To be sure there are several sops made by politicians with an eye on vote banks which has given a handy stick to the madmen in the Hindu community (and a leg up to their counterparts in the moslem community) which needs to be removed. TheBJP with all their hoopla about exactly these things found it politically expedient not to do it. Recently Parsis were included in other backward classes. Boy I had a ball ribbing my Parsi friends. Then there is the matter of uniform civil code - a very ugly beast. There are other external factors too. But the 1st and 2nd will make terrorism in India a very difficult proposition.
On 7/21/06, Harshal Vaidya harshalx@gmail.com wrote:
We need to convince every Muslim in India that we as Hindus are not a threat to them but they are just like any other citizens completely.
RSS, VHP, Shiv Sena. These are Hindu fundamentalist organizations that believe strongly that India is supposed to be a "Hindu" state. Simply saying that "convince Muslims that we're not a threat" won't work.
For every Islamic extremist in India there are two Hindu extremists. Most Hindus have a slightly "guarded" stand against Muslims. For any violent act a Muslim is targetted, whether he's a gangster or a simple lower/middle class worker does not matter.
The problem is not just with Muslims in India. It's to do with a section of the Hindu community AND a section of the Muslim community. If we convince all Hindus AND all Muslims that they're not a threat to each other then terrorism in India will end. But that's too ideal even for Hindi movies.
Siddhesh
On 21-Jul-06, at 11:38 AM, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
The problem is not just with Muslims in India. It's to do with a section of the Hindu community AND a section of the Muslim community. If we convince all Hindus AND all Muslims that they're not a threat to each other then terrorism in India will end. But that's too ideal even for Hindi movies.
you forgot to add christian fanatics to the list - those who opposed davinci code for example
On Friday 21 July 2006 11:38 am, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
On 7/21/06, Harshal Vaidya harshalx@gmail.com wrote:
We need to convince every Muslim in India that we as Hindus are not a threat to them but they are just like any other citizens completely.
RSS, VHP, Shiv Sena. These are Hindu fundamentalist organizations that believe strongly that India is supposed to be a "Hindu" state. Simply saying that "convince Muslims that we're not a threat" won't work.
I have never faced discrimination / religious slur even from hardcore members of RSS and Shiv sena ever even tho i am from a miniority religious community and i do not subscribe to much of their ideology and have said so bluntly. I am therfore a firm believer that Hinduism is essentially very open and Hindus not just tolerant but actually give a shit abt your religious beliefs. Some communities like the Jains are only concerned abt wether i am a veggie or not and make half hearted attempts to convince me abt it's benefits. To put things in balance tho I am anything but relgious and every one of them knew that.
----- Original Message ----- From: "jtd" jtd@mtnl.net.in To: "GNU/Linux Users Group, Mumbai, India" linuxers@mm.glug-bom.org Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] Technology against terrorism.
On Friday 21 July 2006 11:38 am, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
On 7/21/06, Harshal Vaidya harshalx@gmail.com wrote:
We need to convince every Muslim in India that we as Hindus are not a threat to them but they are just like any other citizens completely.
RSS, VHP, Shiv Sena. These are Hindu fundamentalist organizations that believe strongly that India is supposed to be a "Hindu" state. Simply saying that "convince Muslims that we're not a threat" won't work.
We set them apart, we deny them houses in societies, we do nothing to educate them and uplift them from their pathetic and ghettoised living state, we do everything to prevent them from working with us and then we expect that they should not target us.
We, the Hindus, do all this to our Muslim brothers and sisters. Yet when we are on an operating table, we forget whether the surgeon is practising which religion and only ask him to save our lives!
The only way we can bring terrorism to an end is not through the use of technology but through the use of understanding and compassion. We have to bring them into the national mainstream, teach them the same skills that most of us learn, employ them in jobs that most of us do and take them into our fold. For how many times have we heard of a Muslim family being killed while living in a Hindu dominated area or vice-versa, very rare indeed, because we tend to protect those that we know intimately rather than hurt them.
Vinod
On Fri, 2006-07-21 at 12:46 +0530, jtd wrote:
I have never faced discrimination / religious slur even from hardcore members of RSS and Shiv sena ever even tho i am from a miniority religious community and i do not subscribe to much of their ideology and have said so bluntly. I am therfore a firm believer that Hinduism is essentially very open and Hindus not just tolerant but actually give a shit abt your religious beliefs. Some communities like the Jains are only concerned abt wether i am a veggie or not and make half hearted attempts to convince me abt it's benefits. To put things in balance tho I am anything but relgious and every one of them knew that.
The phrase "Your mileage may vary" comes to mind :)
-gabin
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Anurag -
Devdas Bhagat -
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Harshal Vaidya -
jtd -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
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ronbillypop＠yahoo.co.uk -
Sanket Medhi -
Siddhesh Poyarekar -
Vinayak Hegde -
Vinod Chand