I finally decided to ditch Kubuntu due to multile problems. I tried Mandriva and was completely floored by the install progress. It offered me the option of using ndiswrapper for my wifi card right during the install and the card came up automatically after the install. Clean interface. But I don't want to start a new learning curve right now. But it's definitely going into a vmware vm soon.
So back to good old debian. First I got the netinst cd and then tried the debain-kde cd. So far so good. It asked for the isl3886 firmware from a new medium but that was that. The wifi card did not work after the install. Not debian's fault because I haven't been able to get the card working with anythng but ndiswrapper.
Even though this was a 'full' cd, the install insisted on downloading a hell of a lot of files (more than 50 or so). Then after the full install was over and I had rebooted and ran apt-update and apt-get upgrade, it wanted to delete almost 40 files using apt-get auto-remove.
If I try to install without using a net mirror, the sources.list is bare except for the cdrom line.
Now I want to install debian on another machine at a different location. Seeing as how I've already dowloaded all these files on one machine, how can I use this to avoid downloading them again for the second install. What are the options available ? What I was thinking is install without a net mirror, and then copy over the sources.list and the contents of /var/cache/apt/archives to the new machine and then run apt-get update and upgrade.
The second machine is at my clinic and I cannot afford to mess with it too much. It's still running kubuntu 8.04 and is not much trouble but I'd rather run one distro on both my main machines.
thank you,
Sharukh.
Dr. Sharukh K. R. Pavri. wrote:
The second machine is at my clinic and I cannot afford to mess with it too much. It's still running kubuntu 8.04 and is not much trouble but I'd rather run one distro on both my main machines.
If you're trying to get rid of driver issues or configuration / broken packages then Debian isn't the best choice for you. Yes Lenny is good but its like almost a billion years behind todays most bleeding edge packages - the most essential of them all is the kernel and the drivers which you so dearly need for your wifi card. If thats not an issue, please do go ahead using Debian.
I am a debian user and I'm currently using Sid. I switched one of my laptops to Ubuntu 8.10 ( note: Ubuntu! and not Kubuntu! ) and many issues with drivers, packages were solved. I needed some tweaks but what the heck! :)
As for your initial query, I think you should install your second machine offline. Just do a base install. I think the ISO you've got should allow you to do that. Next what you do is install apt-on-cd on the first machine. Create an apt CD/DVD. Connect the second machine, install apt-on-cd, restore the apt cache using the apt-cd/dvd that you created and then just install whatever you installed on the first machine. I think theres an option where apt-on-cd will allow you to automatically install everything from the apt-cd.
- Dinesh
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Dinesh A. Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
If you're trying to get rid of driver issues or configuration / broken packages then Debian isn't the best choice for you. Yes Lenny is good but its like almost a billion years behind todays most bleeding edge packages - the most essential of them all is the kernel and the drivers which you so dearly need for your wifi card. If thats not an issue, please do go ahead using Debian.
billion years!! I am sorry - you are wrong!
I am a debian user and I'm currently using Sid. I switched one of my laptops to Ubuntu 8.10 ( note: Ubuntu! and not Kubuntu! ) and many issues with drivers, packages were solved. I needed some tweaks but what the heck! :)
Ah. And, don't want to mention, how many broken packages you got as gift?
On Thursday 19 Mar 2009 11:42:19 Kartik Mistry wrote:
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Dinesh A. Joshi
dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
If you're trying to get rid of driver issues or configuration / broken packages then Debian isn't the best choice for you. Yes Lenny is good but its like almost a billion years behind todays most bleeding edge packages - the most essential of them all is the kernel and the drivers which you so dearly need for your wifi card. If thats not an issue, please do go ahead using Debian.
billion years!! I am sorry - you are wrong!
I am a debian user and I'm currently using Sid. I switched one of my laptops to Ubuntu 8.10 ( note: Ubuntu! and not Kubuntu! ) and many issues with drivers, packages were solved. I needed some tweaks but what the heck! :)
Ah. And, don't want to mention, how many broken packages you got as gift?
<flamebait> All the other distros suck. openSUSE is millions of years ahead of everyone else. </flamebait>
Now, let's start a distro war and take the thread millions of lightyears OT, shall we?
DAJ, if nothing else, you could refrain from using provocative language and others on the list should learn to ignore the provocations.
Mrugesh
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Mrugesh Karnik mrugeshkarnik@gmail.com wrote:
<flamebait> All the other distros suck. openSUSE is millions of years ahead of everyone else. </flamebait>
Linux for Supermans? ;)
On Thursday 19 Mar 2009, Kartik Mistry wrote:
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Mrugesh Karnik
mrugeshkarnik@gmail.com wrote:
<flamebait> All the other distros suck. openSUSE is millions of years ahead of everyone else. </flamebait>
Linux for Supermans? ;)
You MCP what about Superwomans. You people always want to trample on the miniority (yay it's election time ) and i vehemently object to you implying that women are not super.
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 12:45 PM, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
Linux for Supermans? ;)
/s/Supermans/Superhumans
Thanks :)
Kartik Mistry wrote:
billion years!! I am sorry - you are wrong!
Yes they are. I have a suggestion for you Mr.Kartik Mistry, why dont you just mind your own business and refrain from commenting on my posts? You dont have anything constructive to say to the OP so just shut the **** up? :)
Lenny is *far behind* what other distros have to offer.
Ah. And, don't want to mention, how many broken packages you got as gift?
Maybe you should take some reading lessons before you blindly reply to someones post. Sid has broken packages and stupid dependencies which need to be fixed. If you dont know about them, then whoa dude you shouldn't be a debian "developer" / "tester" or whatever the heck you are.
- Dinesh
I don't want to get involved in a flame war in this list (it seems to be a very difficult thing to do), but...
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 09:45:14AM -0400, Dinesh A. Joshi wrote:
Kartik Mistry wrote:
billion years!! I am sorry - you are wrong!
Yes they are. I have a suggestion for you Mr.Kartik Mistry, why dont you just mind your own business and refrain from commenting on my posts? You dont have anything constructive to say to the OP so just shut the **** up? :)
Lenny is *far behind* what other distros have to offer.
In what sense? Is it in terms of the up-to-dateness of packages? Well, then I'd agree, though I won't agree that that is a bad thing. The philosophy has always been that stable should have packages which work well and not release with the latest upstream versions. Since the release process occurs a few months after freeze (no new package versions admitted), no new software versions are uploaded.
Ah. And, don't want to mention, how many broken packages you got as gift?
Maybe you should take some reading lessons before you blindly reply to someones post. Sid has broken packages and stupid dependencies which need to be fixed. If you dont know about them, then whoa dude you shouldn't be a debian "developer" / "tester" or whatever the heck you are.
I think the question, however badly framed, still asks you the magnitude of problems you are facing. Unfortunately, you have managed to convert this to a personal rebuke. I also use sid, and I (and several others) usually don't seem to face as many problems as you do, so it seems unfair that you pass your experiences as the general verdict.
It is true that sid is also the playground for several library transitions, which often leads to broken packages. So, if you really want to use sid, the best way would be to keep track of the transitions being discussed on the debian-release list, and don't upgrade till they get complete. Or, you'd have to downgrade or rebuild a set of packages against the new libraries etc. Maybe using "testing" might be the solution to those who don't want to go through this trouble.
Kumar
Kumar Appaiah wrote:
In what sense? Is it in terms of the up-to-dateness of packages? Well, then I'd agree, though I won't agree that that is a bad thing. The philosophy has always been that stable should have packages which work well and not release with the latest upstream versions. Since the release process occurs a few months after freeze (no new package versions admitted), no new software versions are uploaded.
In what sense? What sense could it mean?? Hmm... lets THINK for a while shall we? Lets focus on the statement "Lenny is a billion years behind other distros". What attribute could "behind" be applied to in the sense of a Linux distribution... Hmm... Could it be the packages that are supplied with the distro? Hmm... sounds plausible, doesn't it? :| Lets see if Kartik can figure this one out.
Anyway, my point stands and it stands well. Lenny is a billion years behind what other distros are currently offering. It is Debian *stable*. I cant possible begin to stress the "STABLE" aspect enough.
I think the question, however badly framed, still asks you the magnitude of problems you are facing. Unfortunately, you have managed to convert this to a personal rebuke. I also use sid, and I (and several others) usually don't seem to face as many problems as you do, so it seems unfair that you pass your experiences as the general verdict.
No. They're not my personal experiences. They are general, known facts. There are several bugs open against the packages in Sid and thats the whole point of Sid. Its meant for developers / testers who are capable of fixing broken packages. It is NOT meant for end users. Lenny is for end users. BUT unfortunately, Lenny's kernel isn't the latest so certain drivers are not included.
An amazing factoid for the dufuses on this list who blindly write replies without first thinking, Intel generally releases drivers for Linux as soon as it puts out its hardware. Last june they released GMA 4500MHD chip and Intel 5100 / 5300 wifi chips. Unfortunately they released the drivers only for 2.6.27 kernel while they *did* backport it to the older kernels but there was no easy way to get them working especially if you have only ONE machine at your disposal.
Sid did not have the 2.6.27 kernel, while Ubuntu, Fedora and <insert your favorite distro -debian> had it already and Fedora guys had already integrated the iwlagn driver which ensured the wifi cards worked out of the box.
Hence my comment to the OP that Sid/Lenny isn't the best choice when trying to get hardware working. Sid is meant for a different purpose and people often misunderstand it!
I'm a Debian supporter but I'm a professional at the same time. I believe "Use whatever is best suited for the job". Is Lenny really suited for the OP's problem? I dont believe so. Why? because Lenny has packages which are OLD.
- Dinesh
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 8:40 PM, Dinesh A. Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
Anyway, my point stands and it stands well. Lenny is a billion years behind what other distros are currently offering. It is Debian *stable*. I cant possible begin to stress the "STABLE" aspect enough.
True, Lenny is Debian stable, hence has older packages compared to other distros. They're about as old as RHEL packages would be. Why? because they're implemented on servers, and they need to be rock solid, not bleeding edge. And Debian stable pretty much defines rock solid.
No. They're not my personal experiences. They are general, known facts. There are several bugs open against the packages in Sid and thats the whole point of Sid. Its meant for developers / testers who are capable of fixing broken packages. It is NOT meant for end users. Lenny is for
In my 7 years of using Debian sid, I remember only 3 or 4 occasions when something was broken badly enough for me to actually take time out to fix it. Most of the times, fixes for such errors come out within 24 hours. Yes, it is Debian "unstable", but it really doesn't imply what you seem to think. With respect to stability I would actually go out on one leg and compare a Fedora/mandriva _release_ to Debian sid with respect to stability. In fact, Debian unstable seems more stable to me than the Fedora 10 release I've been using for some months now.
If you want real bleeding edge, something that would compare to, say, Fedora Rawhide, I ask you to try out Debian experimental. That's where you would find the absolute bleeding edge software and you can rest assured that whatever works on Mandriva/Fedora, etc will work there -- and, I'd wager, be more stable since Debians qa processes are much tighter when it comes to getting packages in from upstream.
Hence my comment to the OP that Sid/Lenny isn't the best choice when trying to get hardware working. Sid is meant for a different purpose and people often misunderstand it!
Again, most people misunderstand Sid -- you do too. It is about as stable as a release version of any other distribution.
I'm a Debian supporter but I'm a professional at the same time. I believe "Use whatever is best suited for the job". Is Lenny really suited for the OP's problem? I dont believe so. Why? because Lenny has packages which are OLD.
May be not Lenny, but Sid definitely would be worth the try.
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 8:40 PM, Dinesh A. Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
.. because Lenny has packages which are OLD.
But, it works. Btw, have you installed Lenny? If not, please stop your crap!
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 11:38 PM, Dinesh A. Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
I will give you the address of a school where they teach english language. Please go there and learn to read first!
You mean English?
Hey Guys,
dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
.. because Lenny has packages which are OLD.
But, it works. Btw, have you installed Lenny? If not, please stop your crap!
--
Please stop making a fool of yourself on a public mailing list.
Dinesh: Lenny may have slightly older packages than other distributions, but I definitely think it is the most stable Linux distribution available right now (YMMV !).
If you really want to compare Debian to Ubuntu, then you should be using making the comparison with Experimental, not even Sid. And btw, if you think Experimental is, well, experiemental, try using Ubuntu or Fedora's development branches.
I use Debian sid for all my work and couldn't have been happier. I'm a former Redhat->Fedora->Debian->Ubuntu guy and am back to Debian now for the simple reason that it works.
I'd much rather ask newbies to use a distribution that works, rather than ask them to use the latest bleeding version of a distribution that breaks with the next software upgrade.
Kartik: Man ! You know better than to get dragged into a flamebait !
-- Sharninder
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Sharninder sharninder@gmail.com wrote:
Kartik: Man ! You know better than to get dragged into a flamebait !
Sorry!
End of thread from /me.
Sharninder wrote:
Please stop making a fool of yourself on a public mailing list.
Kartik can't stop portraying the way he is... :)
Dinesh: Lenny may have slightly older packages than other distributions, but I definitely think it is the most stable Linux distribution available right now (YMMV !).
Are you starting the "My distro is better than your distro war?" coz its not gonna happen. I love Debian but my stance is the same, its NOT the BEST CHOICE FOR THE OP. That is ALL that I am saying. Is that too difficult to understand?
Stability is RELATIVE. I tried Sarge a LONG time ago and IT SUCKED! Why? Simply because it didn't support my hardware. You cannot call such a distribution STABLE on my hardware, can you?
Also, stability includes a feature called as GRACEFUL FAILURE. Do you zealots understand what it means? Sarge's kernel was constantly panicking. har har... So much for "stability". FreeBSD kicks its arse when it comes to "stability".
So repeat after me... *STABILITY IS A RELATIVE TERM AND I WONT ABUSE IT*
If you really want to compare Debian to Ubuntu, then you should be using making the comparison with Experimental, not even Sid. And btw, if you think Experimental is, well, experiemental, try using Ubuntu or Fedora's development branches.
I AM NOT COMPARING Debian and Ubuntu. They're meant for different purposes. Ubuntu has NEWER packages. It has recent drivers and a more recent kernel. BTW Bluetooth is broken in Lenny and Sid and it works with Ubuntu. Thats just one of the SEVERAL differences between the two distributions.
*THEY ARE MEANT FOR DIFFERENT PURPOSES*
Are you saying that Debian and Ubuntu are meant for the same purpose? Are you saying Debian Sid is as user friendly as Ubuntu 8.10+ and is meant specifically for desktop users who have the latest and greatest hardware?
I use Debian sid for all my work and couldn't have been happier. I'm a former Redhat->Fedora->Debian->Ubuntu guy and am back to Debian now for the simple reason that it works.
Great for you. I am a Redhat, Fedora, CentOS, Debian, Ubuntu USER. Notice the commas and not arrows.
I'd much rather ask newbies to use a distribution that works, rather than ask them to use the latest bleeding version of a distribution that breaks with the next software upgrade.
Exactly MY POINT.
There are higher chances for Ubuntu to work out of the box for a newbie because it includes a lot of nice drivers and scripts that vanilla debian lacks. Specifically the restricted driver manager is something that debian doesn't have and also firmware for most wifi cards is included in Ubuntu.
I'm trying to keep an objective outlook here. But it seems that I've stepped on some toes by suggesting some other distro!
Kartik: Man ! You know better than to get dragged into a flamebait !
Dragged? He started it!
- Dinesh
On Friday 20 Mar 2009, Dinesh A. Joshi wrote:
Stability is RELATIVE. I tried Sarge a LONG time ago and IT SUCKED! Why? Simply because it didn't support my hardware. You cannot call such a distribution STABLE on my hardware, can you?
Also, stability includes a feature called as GRACEFUL FAILURE. Do you zealots understand what it means? Sarge's kernel was constantly panicking. har har... So much for "stability".
You got it in the first para. Flaky hardware. sarge installed 4 years ago and still running on atleast 20 boxes - all extremely critical.
FreeBSD kicks its arse when it comes to "stability".
Without most of the other hardware components working.
jtd wrote:
You got it in the first para. Flaky hardware. sarge installed 4 years ago and still running on atleast 20 boxes - all extremely critical.
Oh my Gawd where is teh Nobel Prize??!!! Somebody!! quick!! get it!!
My hardware wasn't flaky. It was a nice Core2Duo machine. It was relatively old by that time. Infact I had posted a HowTo in this very mailing list. I installed Lenny instead of Sid. That also did not work out of the box. Though after a few tweaks it did!
Without most of the other hardware components working.
Oooh...isn't the case with Debian Stable too??? :D
Its so nice to see how you can use the same words to praise *your* favorite distro and put down other distros :)
- Dinesh
On Friday 20 Mar 2009, Dinesh A. Joshi wrote:
jtd wrote:
You got it in the first para. Flaky hardware. sarge installed 4 years ago and still running on atleast 20 boxes - all extremely critical.
Oh my Gawd where is teh Nobel Prize??!!! Somebody!! quick!! get it!!
Your standards are pathetic.
My hardware wasn't flaky. It was a nice Core2Duo machine. It was relatively old by that time. Infact I had posted a HowTo in this very mailing list. I installed Lenny instead of Sid. That also did not work out of the box. Though after a few tweaks it did!
When everybody elses hardware works and yours doesnt, It means flaky hardware.
Without most of the other hardware components working.
Oooh...isn't the case with Debian Stable too??? :D
Precisely the point. You want that bug ridden badly initiliased by bios + voodo blob missing specs NDA for lookin at picture piece of hardware to work? use Xpee.
Its so nice to see how you can use the same words to praise *your* favorite distro and put down other distros :)
You were glorifying BSD with one piece of logic while pulling down sarge with the same. And I was talking SPECIFICALLY about stability.
Without being specific about use and requirements comparisons are speculative at best.
Is the op better off with etch / ubuntu / whatever? Install, test, then decide. Hardwork you know. Which is where bundled hardware and software comes into play.
jtd wrote:
Your standards are pathetic.
Har har... :)
When everybody elses hardware works and yours doesnt, It means flaky hardware.
ROTFLMAO... The sheer *arrogance* disgusts me :) Search for Jmicron, Debian, Intel DG 965 RY motherboard.
You were glorifying BSD with one piece of logic while pulling down sarge with the same. And I was talking SPECIFICALLY about stability.
Thats what you were doing in the first place. And as I said, Stability is a relative term.
- Dinesh
On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Dinesh A. Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
When everybody elses hardware works and yours doesnt, It means flaky hardware.
Yes, you will probably have a clue about how this works when you get into how exactly some hardware work (or don't). Recently I came across an issue where a certain DVD drive lies about the type of disk it has and we had to hack in a fix for it. That in my opinion is flaky hardware, not a driver issue per say.
Why do such hacks take time to come into Debian sid? I suspect its because of their QA process, which is quite exhaustive. If you want such bleeding edge support then try experimental -- it'll be just about as stable as a Fedora.
ROTFLMAO... The sheer *arrogance* disgusts me :) Search for Jmicron, Debian, Intel DG 965 RY motherboard.
You were glorifying BSD with one piece of logic while pulling down sarge with the same. And I was talking SPECIFICALLY about stability.
Thats what you were doing in the first place. And as I said, Stability is a relative term.
No. Stability implies less susceptibility to crashes/downtime. What you're talking about is compatibility. Get your terminology right.
Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
No. Stability implies less susceptibility to crashes/downtime. What you're talking about is compatibility. Get your terminology right.
You do understand that stability is built on top of compatibility, right? So however "stable" your system is, if it meets with an incompatible / badly compatible piece of hardware then stability crashes :)
And btw supporting an IDE controller off Intels motherboards isn't some hack that it took time to get through Debian's QA.
- Dinesh
On Friday 20 Mar 2009, Dinesh A. Joshi wrote:
Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
No. Stability implies less susceptibility to crashes/downtime. What you're talking about is compatibility. Get your terminology right.
You do understand that stability is built on top of compatibility, right? So however "stable" your system is, if it meets with an incompatible / badly compatible piece of hardware then stability crashes :)
And btw supporting an IDE controller off Intels motherboards
The controller is jmicron. Jmicron who?. A company that produces the worst controllers on the planet. Ofcourse they sell them for pennies.
So next time LOOOOOK at the hardware properly.
I too have been had on one occasion if that is any consolation.
RTL sound chip which had a wrong sampling freq on a via mobo, the older version of which worked flawlessly. The new version ofcourse worked on xp. There was a simple change required in the driver which would then break all the other chips. So you would require a modprobe option to make it work. I simply changed the mobo.
On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Dinesh A. Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
You do understand that stability is built on top of compatibility, right? So however "stable" your system is, if it meets with an incompatible / badly compatible piece of hardware then stability crashes :)
I thought for a moment that you were trying to be cheeky, but I guess you're not. I'll repeat again -- they're two completely unrelated concepts and deal with two completely different aspects of software.
Adobe Photoshop not being Linux compatible, for example, does not make Linux unstable. An application crashing because the distro rushed in to get the latest kernel/glibc without proper QA implies instability.
At least now I hope you get the difference.
Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
I thought for a moment that you were trying to be cheeky, but I guess you're not. I'll repeat again -- they're two completely unrelated concepts and deal with two completely different aspects of software.
Adobe Photoshop not being Linux compatible, for example, does not make Linux unstable. An application crashing because the distro rushed in to get the latest kernel/glibc without proper QA implies instability.
At least now I hope you get the difference.
Lets talk atomicity. Either something works, or it doesn't. Debian or any distro for that matter will try its level best to get a piece of hardware to work. If that hardware is a critical part in the functioning of the whole system, then the system as a whole should work at all as opposed to it crashing the system.
Secondly, for absolute stability you need microkernels. This is when the system continues to function even when internal kernel data structures are corrupted. Why am I saying this? Point is stability is relative. End of story.
My piece of hardware was fine. It worked with other distros. Debian stable did not work with it. It kept on crashing. Call it flaky hardware or whatever you want. Its in use by a large number of people.
And lastly, my point still stands. Debian stable will always support a subset of hardware supported by Ubuntu or Fedora or other bleeding edge distros. You *cannot* refute that fact.
- Dinesh
On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:38 PM, Dinesh A. Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
Lets talk atomicity. Either something works, or it doesn't. Debian or
Why do we talk atomicity all of a sudden? Do you know what it means? Do you know the context it is used in? Do you know what should be atomic and what shouldn't? Don't use words just because they sound cool. Atomicity has nothing to do with either stability or compatibility. You're beginning to sound like Ballmer -- developers developers developers ...
any distro for that matter will try its level best to get a piece of hardware to work. If that hardware is a critical part in the functioning of the whole system, then the system as a whole should work at all as opposed to it crashing the system.
Hardware not functioning/supported != crash. Hardware malfunctioning == crash
And before you start that argument, No. malfunctioning != non-functioning. I'm not going to bother explaining to you since all you seem to be bothered with is stating your point and underlining it till your pencil point breaks.
Secondly, for absolute stability you need microkernels. This is when the system continues to function even when internal kernel data structures are corrupted. Why am I saying this? Point is stability is relative. End of story.
Oh man, you are simply talking crap now. Why don't you even include patents, rocket science, pigeon rank and all other high tech fundas as bases for how stability is relative?
/me signs off from this pointless discussion.
Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:38 PM, Dinesh A. Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
Lets talk atomicity. Either something works, or it doesn't. Debian or
Why do we talk atomicity all of a sudden? Do you know what it means? Do you know the context it is used in? Do you know what should be atomic and what shouldn't? Don't use words just because they sound cool. Atomicity has nothing to do with either stability or compatibility. You're beginning to sound like Ballmer -- developers developers developers ...
Uh...just because your closed mind cannot adopt to terms outside their "textbook" usage doesn't mean they're wrong. Geez and you support "open" source?
Go read some papers on Exokernel, Spring. Learn operating system concepts and then start a debate with me.
/me signs off from this pointless discussion.
Dont let the door hit your **** on the way out :)
- Dinesh
On Friday 20 Mar 2009, Dinesh A. Joshi wrote:
Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
I thought for a moment that you were trying to be cheeky, but I guess you're not. I'll repeat again -- they're two completely unrelated concepts and deal with two completely different aspects of software.
Adobe Photoshop not being Linux compatible, for example, does not make Linux unstable. An application crashing because the distro rushed in to get the latest kernel/glibc without proper QA implies instability.
At least now I hope you get the difference.
Lets talk atomicity. Either something works, or it doesn't. Debian or any distro for that matter will try its level best to get a piece of hardware to work. If that hardware is a critical part in the functioning of the whole system, then the system as a whole should work at all as opposed to it crashing the system.
Secondly, for absolute stability you need microkernels.
Aha. Plan 9 i suppose? Or is it something even more secure.
This is when the system continues to function even when internal kernel data structures are corrupted. Why am I saying this? Point is stability is relative. End of story.
YAAAHOOOO. You finally got it. Papu cluefullness ka xjam pass ho gaya. GOD (not RMS) i believe in miracles.
On Friday 20 Mar 2009, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Dinesh A. Joshi
dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
When everybody elses hardware works and yours doesnt, It means flaky hardware.
Yes, you will probably have a clue about how this works when you get into how exactly some hardware work (or don't). Recently I came across an issue where a certain DVD drive lies about the type of disk it has and we had to hack in a fix for it. That in my opinion is flaky hardware, not a driver issue per say.
Why do such hacks take time to come into Debian sid? I suspect its because of their QA process,
IMO the real reason is that the identification (manifestation) of flaky hardware depends on several factors quite difficult to reproduce. Add things like "INTEL hardware" with jmicron ide + vodoo blob firmware and you have a PITA. Unless you check the chip revision numbers on the board you really dont know what you are buying. There are many other aspects too, related to the present methods of mass assembly of mobos and physically mounting them within boxes. The stress tolerances on a particular ball of a device depend on .5 mm positioning accuracy in a 3d plane and the torque on the screws.
And dont go by a brand. They usually have crappy work arounds plastered inside the doze drivers. If the board actually proves to be popular the 2nd or 3rd revision might solve some issues and introduce some more. The answer to a hardware + software question is valid only for a very tiny set of well defined conditions. Recently Rony and I had a problem of bad sata power cable. Rarely intermittent. Would make one suspect the disk.
So is Debian sarge more stable than Ubuntu hairy rhino? Cannot say without running both on the exact same hardware.
The point i was trying to impress without getting DJ undies in a knot.
Hi,
On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 1:09 PM, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
So is Debian sarge more stable than Ubuntu hairy rhino? Cannot say
"Hairy Hippo" would be more suitable as per Ubuntu conventions. - via Parthan.
Cheers!
Pradeepto
On Thu, March 19, 2009 11:41 pm, Sharninder said:
Hey Guys,
dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
.. because Lenny has packages which are OLD.
But, it works. Btw, have you installed Lenny? If not, please stop your crap!
--
Please stop making a fool of yourself on a public mailing list.
Dinesh: Lenny may have slightly older packages than other distributions, but I definitely think it is the most stable Linux distribution available right now (YMMV !).
If you really want to compare Debian to Ubuntu, then you should be using making the comparison with Experimental, not even Sid. And btw, if you think Experimental is, well, experiemental, try using Ubuntu or Fedora's development branches.
I use Debian sid for all my work and couldn't have been happier. I'm a former Redhat->Fedora->Debian->Ubuntu guy and am back to Debian now for the simple reason that it works.
I'd much rather ask newbies to use a distribution that works, rather than ask them to use the latest bleeding version of a distribution that breaks with the next software upgrade.
Kartik: Man ! You know better than to get dragged into a flamebait !
Mandriva ROCKS! ;-)
Best, Atanu
On Friday 20 March 2009 00:27:12 Atanu Datta wrote:
Kartik: Man ! You know better than to get dragged into a flamebait !
Mandriva ROCKS! ;-)
bigtime
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 7:15 PM, Dinesh A. Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
billion years!! I am sorry - you are wrong!
Yes they are. I have a suggestion for you Mr.Kartik Mistry, why dont you just mind your own business and refrain from commenting on my posts?
Because, its fun to break your wrong assumptions!
Maybe you should take some reading lessons before you blindly reply to someones post. Sid has broken packages and stupid dependencies which need to be fixed. If you dont know about them, then whoa dude you shouldn't be a debian "developer" / "tester" or whatever the heck you are.
Every distro has broken packages. Sid = unstable. Stupid dependencies? Ok. How many are reported to Debian by 'You'?
Need to fix? Ever try to tell?
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 7:15 PM, Dinesh A. Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
Kartik Mistry wrote:
billion years!! I am sorry - you are wrong!
Yes they are. I have a suggestion for you Mr.Kartik Mistry, why dont you just mind your own business and refrain from commenting on my posts? You dont have anything constructive to say to the OP so just shut the **** up? :)
Lenny is *far behind* what other distros have to offer.
Ah. And, don't want to mention, how many broken packages you got as gift?
Maybe you should take some reading lessons before you blindly reply to someones post. Sid has broken packages and stupid dependencies which need to be fixed. If you dont know about them, then whoa dude you shouldn't be a debian "developer" / "tester" or whatever the heck you are.
its supposed to be "unstable" ... use stable if you wanted stability ;-)
Karunakar
On Wed, Mar 18 2009, Dinesh A. Joshi wrote:
Dr. Sharukh K. R. Pavri. wrote:
The second machine is at my clinic and I cannot afford to mess with it too much. It's still running kubuntu 8.04 and is not much trouble but I'd rather run one distro on both my main machines.
If you're trying to get rid of driver issues or configuration / broken packages then Debian isn't the best choice for you. Yes Lenny is good but its like almost a billion years behind todays most bleeding edge packages - the most essential of them all is the kernel and the drivers which you so dearly need for your wifi card. If thats not an issue, please do go ahead using Debian.
Considering that Lenny was just released, and that it released with 2.6.26, your hyperbole just reduced your credibility in my eyes. As of this writing, 2,6,29 is not yet out, so yes, a couple of releases of the kernel old, but that is a far cry from how you portray it.
The problems mentioned should be avoidable with Lenny, and this is what we were trying to establish before you brought your mostly unsubstantiated opinions into the discussion;
Now, the facts can be ascertained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Linux_distributions
Debian seems to be distributing a newer kernel than RHEL, Centos and Slackware, and is one version behind Fedora, Ubuntu, and Gentoo.
The original poster's problem, BTW, can be resolved if he downloads the non-free firmware, puts them under a firmware/ directory on a USB key, and tells the installation process to look for the firmware. Nothing to do with Debian having 'billions' of year old software.
manoj
Manoj Srivastava wrote:
The original poster's problem, BTW, can be resolved if hedownloads the non-free firmware, puts them under a firmware/ directory on a USB key, and tells the installation process to look for the firmware. Nothing to do with Debian having 'billions' of year old software.
Go check the bug reports for Lenny. Secondly, check the kernel's change log. Also, check Xorg version numbers. And ahem... Debian doesn't apply patches to its kernel, does it? :)
- Dinesh
On Fri, Mar 20 2009, Dinesh A. Joshi wrote:
Manoj Srivastava wrote:
The original poster's problem, BTW, can be resolved if hedownloads the non-free firmware, puts them under a firmware/ directory on a USB key, and tells the installation process to look for the firmware. Nothing to do with Debian having 'billions' of year old software.
Go check the bug reports for Lenny. Secondly, check the kernel's change log. Also, check Xorg version numbers. And ahem... Debian
All kinds of hand waving, I see.
doesn't apply patches to its kernel, does it? :)
I would expect nothing more cluefull from you, I suppose.
Anyway, your sheer idiocy, lack of clue, rudeness, and sheer vituperation have earned you a space in my kill file. Based on previous experience, you are unlikely to say anything of any passing interest to me.
Have a nice life. *plonk*.
manoj
On Friday 20 March 2009 12:03:10 Manoj Srivastava wrote:
Anyway, your sheer idiocy, lack of clue, rudeness, and sheer vituperation have earned you a space in my kill file. Based on previous experience, you are unlikely to say anything of any passing interest to me.
and this guy has been moderated, advised, counseled and approved for posting by none other than Devdas Bhagat, who is India's leading authority on etiquette
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Friday 20 March 2009 12:03:10 Manoj Srivastava wrote:
Anyway, your sheer idiocy, lack of clue, rudeness, and sheervituperation have earned you a space in my kill file. Based on previous experience, you are unlikely to say anything of any passing interest to me.
and this guy has been moderated, advised, counseled and approved for posting by none other than Devdas Bhagat, who is India's leading authority on etiquette
two words - lame admins :)
- Dinesh
On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:48 PM, Dinesh A. Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
two words - lame admins :)
Admin, Please wake up and moderate this lame guy!
On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:54 PM, Kartik Mistry kartik.mistry@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:48 PM, Dinesh A. Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
two words - lame admins :)
Admin, Please wake up and moderate this lame guy!
So far no one has violated any list guidelines. :-) Though the discussion is very charged.
-- Cheers, Kartik Mistry | 0xD1028C8D | IRC: kart_
With regards,
Dinesh Shah (દિનેશ શાહ/दिनेश शाह) wrote:
On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:54 PM, Kartik Mistry kartik.mistry@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:48 PM, Dinesh A. Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
two words - lame admins :)
Admin, Please wake up and moderate this lame guy!
So far no one has violated any list guidelines. :-) Though the discussion is very charged.
This confirms it. You are BIASED. He called me "LAME GUY". Isn't that AGAINST the list guidelines? Shouldn't he be put under moderation or something?
- Dinesh
On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 12:03 AM, Dinesh A. Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
This confirms it. You are BIASED. He called me "LAME GUY". Isn't that AGAINST the list guidelines? Shouldn't he be put under moderation or something?
Oh, forgot. He called our beloved admins - lame admins!
Dinesh,
On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 12:03 AM, Dinesh A. Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
two words - lame admins :)
Admin, Please wake up and moderate this lame guy!
So far no one has violated any list guidelines. :-) Though the discussion is very charged.
This confirms it. You are BIASED. He called me "LAME GUY". Isn't that AGAINST the list guidelines? Shouldn't he be put under moderation or something?
So did you! Now what do you want? Moderation?
- Dinesh
--
With regards,
Dinesh Shah (દિનેશ શાહ/दिनेश शाह) wrote:
So did you! Now what do you want? Moderation?
Yes, for Kartik, yes. And I did not indulge in name calling. I dont like you Admins here. I called the admins lame. A collective of people lame. I did not say Dinesh Shah is stupid or Dinesh Shah is lame. Theres a difference.
- Dinesh
On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 12:10 AM, Dinesh A. Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
I called the admins lame. A collective of people lame.
This is serious.
Kartik Mistry wrote:
On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 12:10 AM, Dinesh A. Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
I called the admins lame. A collective of people lame.
This is serious.
0wn34 :D
- Dinesh
Dinesh A. Joshi wrote:
Dinesh Shah (દિનેશ શાહ/दिनेश शाह) wrote:
So did you! Now what do you want? Moderation?
Yes, for Kartik, yes. And I did not indulge in name calling. I dont like you Admins here. I called the admins lame. A collective of people lame. I did not say Dinesh Shah is stupid or Dinesh Shah is lame. Theres a difference.
Guys, why are we fighting and pulling each other down like crabs? Is this some sort of a curse on the Indian mindset or mentality? Just look at the other lists abroad, how they conduct themselves. How many times have we googled for searching solutions and found them on this site? Most of the help is coming from abroad. Are we still some fighting Indians while the foreigners keep progressing?
Seriously DJ, just make a total count of your messages and try to access how much useful information you have posted vs the flames. The list admins have been very lenient not only to you but to me and everyone else who got into trouble at some time or the other on this list. Lets make life a bit easier for them please.
Kartik Mistry wrote:
On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:48 PM, Dinesh A. Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
two words - lame admins :)
Admin, Please wake up and moderate this lame guy!
Why dont you go into your little corner and cry your eyes out? :D
- Dinesh
On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Dinesh A. Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
Why dont you go into your little corner and cry your eyes out? :D
No need to cry. I am laughing at your foolishness!
Kartik Mistry wrote:
On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Dinesh A. Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
Why dont you go into your little corner and cry your eyes out? :D
No need to cry. I am laughing at your foolishness!
ROTFLMAO :)
- Dinesh
On Wed, Mar 18 2009, Dr. Sharukh K. R. Pavri. wrote:
I finally decided to ditch Kubuntu due to multile problems. I tried Mandriva and was completely floored by the install progress. It offered me the option of using ndiswrapper for my wifi card right during the install and the card came up automatically after the install. Clean interface. But I don't want to start a new learning curve right now. But it's definitely going into a vmware vm soon.
So back to good old debian. First I got the netinst cd and then tried the debain-kde cd. So far so good. It asked for the isl3886 firmware from a new medium but that was that. The wifi card did not work after the install. Not debian's fault because I haven't been able to get the card working with anythng but ndiswrapper.
Did you provide the firmware on a usb key? I am surprised that the card would not work, if there is support in the kernel, and you had the required firmware.
Even though this was a 'full' cd, the install insisted on downloading a hell of a lot of files (more than 50 or so). Then after the full install was over and I had rebooted and ran apt-update and apt-get upgrade, it wanted to delete almost 40 files using apt-get auto-remove.
A netinst cd is a "NETwork INSTall CD". I am amazed it only needed 50 or so files, usually the bulk of the OS is acquired over the network,
If I try to install without using a net mirror, the sources.list is bare except for the cdrom line.
Yes, you have to edit the list manually, if you do not provide a network mirror for a network install cd.
Now I want to install debian on another machine at a different location. Seeing as how I've already dowloaded all these files on one machine, how can I use this to avoid downloading them again for the second install. What are the options available ? What I was thinking is install without a net mirror, and then copy over the sources.list and the contents of /var/cache/apt/archives to the new machine and then run apt-get update and upgrade.
This will work. Indeed, if you can create the partitions and the file system ahead of time, you can opt to not partition the drive and not wipe the file systems, in that case create empty partitions, except that you populate the /var/cache/apt/archives directory. That way, you can go ahead with the install in one step; it will pick up after the base system is isntalled from the CD.
manoj
On Thursday 19 Mar 2009, Dr. Sharukh K. R. Pavri. wrote:
What I was thinking is install without a net mirror, and then copy over the sources.list and the contents of /var/cache/apt/archives to the new machine and then run apt-get update and upgrade.
Afaik that wont work. update /upgrade needs the packages.gz file from the locations listed in /etc/apt/sources.list
But you can do a dpkg -iR /var/cache/apt/*.deb WARNING: its R (recursive) not r (= remove).
I just upgraded etch to lenny with the 5 downloaded dvd iso. upgrade bombed out with "libc6 does not belong to dpkg" (or some such error). libc6 and stuff reside in /lib/tls/. I had to move that out and proceed. I had to manually add kde* and strangely xserver-xorg-input-kbd and xserver-xorg-input-mouse when x started without kb and mouse. The iceweasel / ff/ whatever is a pain as far as bookmarks. They disappeared. And after some digging around managed to get it back.
So whats great in lenny?. Well nothing. Everything is just the same so far. Everything worked earlier anyway. Except mapnik and osm. All the gis tools seem to have loaded nicely. Will give them a check in a few days.
On Thursday 19 March 2009 11:21:57 jtd wrote:
So whats great in lenny?. Well nothing. Everything is just the same so far. Everything worked earlier anyway. Except mapnik and osm
I had to upgrade my server to lenny because etch libraries were way too ancient for mapnik to work.
On Thursday 19 Mar 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Thursday 19 March 2009 11:21:57 jtd wrote:
So whats great in lenny?. Well nothing. Everything is just the same so far. Everything worked earlier anyway. Except mapnik and osm
I had to upgrade my server to lenny because etch libraries were way too ancient for mapnik to work.
Main reason for my lenny upgrade.
Dr. Sharukh K. R. Pavri. wrote:
So back to good old debian. First I got the netinst cd and then tried the debain-kde cd. So far so good. It asked for the isl3886 firmware from a new medium but that was that. The wifi card did not work after the install. Not debian's fault because I haven't been able to get the card working with anythng but ndiswrapper.
Lenny is a God send for those who don't want Ubuntu. Since you are an expert, Lenny is the right choice for you. Deb packages are slim and trim and do not bloat your system. Do look up madwifi drivers for wireless. Once your first system is up to date simply copy its contents to the new pc. Don't copy proc and the dir where you mount the copying device (generally mnt) or you will get into a loop that will fill up your recording medium. After that create proc and the mounting dir and edit your hostname, fstab, install grub etc in the second pc to get it up and running.
Here is my sources.lst file for Lenny in quotes
"# deb cdrom:[Debian GNU/Linux 5.0.0 _Lenny_ - Official i386 DVD Binary-1 20090214-16:54]/ lenny contrib main
deb cdrom:[Debian GNU/Linux 5.0.0 _Lenny_ - Official i386 DVD Binary-1 20090214-16:54]/ lenny contrib main
deb http://security.debian.org/ lenny/updates main contrib deb-src http://security.debian.org/ lenny/updates main contrib
deb http://volatile.debian.org/debian-volatile lenny/volatile main contrib deb-src http://volatile.debian.org/debian-volatile lenny/volatile main contrib
# Taken from the net
deb-src http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian lenny main contrib non-free deb http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian lenny main contrib non-free deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org lenny main "
Dr. Sharukh K. R. Pavri. wrote:
The wifi card did not work after the install. Not debian's fault because I haven't been able to get the card working with anythng but ndiswrapper.
This is some usefull info for your wifi.
http://wiki.debian.org/prism54
Sharukh,
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Dr. Sharukh K. R. Pavri. lists@pavri.net wrote:
The second machine is at my clinic and I cannot afford to mess with it too much. It's still running kubuntu 8.04 and is not much trouble but I'd rather run one distro on both my main machines.
Don't fix if ain't broken.
Why go to all the trouble of re-installation and troubleshooting if things are working? (except may to get some thrill. :-)) In any case, Ubuntu/Kububtu are still Debian based and should not cause management nightmare on your part.
thank you,
Sharukh.
With regards,
-
Atanu Datta -
Dinesh A. Joshi -
Dinesh Shah (દિનેશ શાહ/दिनेश शाह) -
Dr. Sharukh K. R. Pavri. -
G Karunakar -
jtd -
Kartik Mistry -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
Kumar Appaiah -
Manoj Srivastava -
Mrugesh Karnik -
Pradeepto Bhattacharya -
Rony -
Sharninder -
Siddhesh Poyarekar