Mukund Deshmukh wrote:

...

According to those who know Tally is the worst possible software you could use to manage your accounting. Search for Saswata and KG's post on this list.

Very true, But why Super IT power of India, not making some thing similar to Tally, but better than Tally?

I have posted information about GPLed Turbocash earlier but it is currently available for windows only.

Here are some interesting links.

http://www.turbocash.co.za/wiki/index.php?title=Development:Linux

http://www.box.co.za/wiki/index.php/Roadmap_Linux

http://www.linux.com/articles/51167

On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 7:34 PM, Saswata Banerjee & Associates

Anyone needing help on this, contact me offline. Lets not waste time of others on the group on how to get accounting working on new software.

0. Mr.Shah's interests will be well-served if you gave him a quotation 1. We would love to know what it takes to make GNU/Linux a good platform for accounting and business. Give us tips, and we will guide business to your doors

Nishit Dave wrote:

On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 7:34 PM, Saswata Banerjee & Associates

...

Anyone needing help on this, contact me offline. Lets not waste time of others on the group on how to get accounting working on new software.

0. Mr.Shah's interests will be well-served if you gave him a quotation
1. We would love to know what it takes to make GNU/Linux a good

platform for accounting and business. Give us tips, and we will guide business to your doors

Linux is already a good platform for business applications, including accounting. What is missing is : - Awareness - Support (commercial affordable support) - Trained people to operate the software - Good team to implement (where the business owner or Accounting head does not have the time / skill to do it on his own).

Perhaps another thing missing is compliance with Indian Tax laws. This is something every potential customer will ask and every tally vendor will use as a counter argument. However, my experience has been that it makes very little difference. If we can make extensions to the accounting software that will provide for Indian Tax regulations (most problems are on TDS to be deducted at the time of payment and for computation of Service Tax Payment and Setoff), we can resolve this problem.

The software that should be offered to the client will depend on what is the business. For example, Web-ERP is very good for trading companies. Its manufacturing accounting is poor. On the other hand, Adempaire has a very good Manufacturing module.

Also the company structure makes a difference. WebERP is completely Browser-based. Many people in India will not be comfortable working on it. TinyERP has both local client (in Linux and Windows) and web-client. So it gives the flixibility of working from inside the same office and from outside the office (or branch office) without equal ease.

It may also be a good idea to take a 2 step approach. In all the accounting / ERP software we are now using, users can continue to work from Windows while the server can be moved to Linux. Then you can move users to Linux separately when the software implementation has been stabilised. If in some office, a few people refuse to shift to Linux, it does not matter. Others are not affected by it. In my own office, one of my partners swears by windows, so his laptop runs windows while all the others are on Linux Fedora 8.

Finally, in terms of making the softwares Indian Tax Compliant -

We just need to write extensions (or replacement) for the following modules : - Purchase Bill Entry --> change to provide multiple levels of taxation, each working on a different basis. Also provide for automated tax rates based on product and vendor location. Naturally we will also have to modify back-end code so that it puts the taxes into the correct ledgers

- Sales Invoice Generation --> same changes as above

- Expense Voucher Entry --> Make provision for Tax Deduction At Source (so only the net amount after deducting income tax goes into party account and the tax goes into the TDS account), with correct TDS rates being picked up from a master based on purpose and vendor type (eg, Company has higher rate, individual has lower).

- Correct accounting of service tax and tracking service tax entries against receipt and payment (Service tax is payable to the government only AFTER you get the money from your customer and you can set off service tax on bills you have paid only AFTER YOU pay it to the vendor). The service tax due statement should be generated based on this method of accounting.

- Automated Remainders for paying VAT, CST, TDS, Service Tax on due dates and allowing the system to pick up correct amount

- New sets of reports for submitting to the government authorities (generated automatically and in correct format).

- if possible, new module for e-TDS and e-VAT Returns (based on standards declared by the govt)

I think this is all that is required.

Am I answering your query or blabering ? :-)

Regards Saswata

Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:

On 08-Mar-08, at 6:13 PM, jtd wrote:

...

...

I would like to know if there is any account software similar to Tally

According to those who know Tally is the worst possible software you could use to manage your accounting. Search for Saswata and KG's post on this list.

strangely enough Saswata has reemerged just in time for this round. As mentioned previously it is very easy to create a package far superior to Tally - the only thing we need is domain knowledge from a qualified CA, which we have not been able to get.

Hi Kenneth and everyone else in this debate.

We have done quiet a lot of work on accounting software from the time the last discussion took place. We have worked on 4 different software and implemented them in client offices.

We do not need to create a new software. We need to take the software that we are most comfortable with and write extensions to take care of Indian Accounting / Tax Laws.

We need to change only the voucher entry screens at critical location and the underlying code that writes the entry into ledgers. That is all. And in some cases, we need to make new reports (eg like for VAT) in the format specified by Govt of India. Its that simple. The existing software like TinyERP, WebERP and Adumpaire (fork of Compaire) have a fantastic core accounting features. We will be wasting our time in rewriting those codes.

If we do it, we can offer it to TinyERP as an extension which they will put into future codes, so it does not break every time they make a new version.

Anyone wanting help to do this part, I am available, if you can put the relevant software on my PC. Last time I tried it with Kenneth, I got caught in things like CSV and other things and never moved beyond step zero.

And if it helps, Rajeev RK and my firm have a JV that provides commercial support for Linux and we can provide a single point (paid ofcourse) support point for any such software that is made / modified and distributed.

Regards Saswata

Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:

On 09-Mar-08, at 2:40 PM, Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote:

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Anyone wanting help to do this part, I am available, if you can put the relevant software on my PC. Last time I tried it with Kenneth, I got caught in things like CSV and other things and never moved beyond step zero.

sounds good - tinyerp is in python, which is a plus.

There are 2 versions of TinyERP. Server component is the same, but there are 2 clients. 1. The Client Server client - available in Fedora 8 repository 2. Web Client (called e-Tiny).

The web client has been developed by a comany in association with TinyERP.

According to me, e-tiny will finally be more popular. So we will need to modify both of them.

I am going through it - nrc-foss has the resources to modify and develop it - all we need is regular feedback from your end. Lets hope this time (fourth try) it works

This time, it will be there, since we already use the software for our clients.

Rajeev R K has already done significant work in trying to get the thing to work in our client's offices. He will be glad to provide help that you may need.

Also, the Tiny Manual is in a pathetic shape, with half the chapters written in French. If we can complete the translation, we will have a 200 + page manual also available.

LETS MOVE !!!!!

(right, i did surface at the correct time. Destiny calls ;) )

Regards Saswata

On 09-Mar-08, at 11:23 PM, Agnello George wrote:

what exactly happened to the 1st 2nd and 3rd try !!!

check the list archives over the past 4 years

The positives for Tally include: [i] it doesn't really expect the end user to have an expertise equivalent to a CA [ii] fairly rapid inclusion of business rules according to Government directives [iii] an enterprise edition that allows distributed data collection points and consolidated reporting

Can tinyerp or weberp have the above features included in !! are these accounting packages tweakable as per India Laws.

i did check put GnuCash, but i guess its more for personal accounting.

Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote:

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jtd wrote:

| According to those who know Tally is the worst possible software you | could use to manage your accounting. Search for Saswata and KG's post | on this list.

The positives for Tally include: [i] it doesn't really expect the end user to have an expertise equivalent to a CA

Neither do most of the other accounting software. The entire concept of ERP is that people do their normal work and accounts gets updated. If you are going to do entire accounting without the help of an accountant (not necessarily a CA, but an accountant), then either you have to be very small business or be prepared for a huge lot of problems and issues.

[ii] fairly rapid inclusion of business rules according to Government directives

I do not see business rules according to government directives being put into Tally. They still do not have a mandatory TDS rule. The software depends on the users to remember to deduct tax at source. (Disclaimer : I stopped using tally after version 7.2 stage)

[iii] an enterprise edition that allows distributed data collection points and consolidated reporting

Tally is yet to launch an enterprise edition. They have refunded money to all their clients who had paid advance for the Enterise and ERP version of tally. I know this because many people from Tally Enterise Sales have left and joined accounting software companies we do work with and I got first hand information on it. Dont hold your breath on it.

The only thing it does is to allow accounts from multiple locations (read - databases) to be merged into a single database. Nothing more. Any correction you do on the central system can not be taken back to the original locations.

Shouldn't really be too difficult to get a similar thing going if [i] is available. I guess NRCFOSS would be a good place to try this out given their recent success in the creation of a conference management software

But the problems with Tally are must more deep rooted. (I suspect you have not bother to read the prev posts on the matter). It allows the user to delete and insert data into any book at any time for any date. It automatically renumbers the vouchers and leaves no audit trail. As a result, if an user changes data, the business owners will never find out. This complete lack of data integrity is a very worrying matter for any business owner who is not sitting and doing all his accounts on his own.

Anyone wanting to know more about Tally and its problems, take this offline with me. Of I will meet all of you somewhere if this is to be discussed.

If you can wean people away from Tally and that gene of software, then it would do them a favour.

Regards Saswata

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You see things; and you say 'Why?'; But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?' - George Bernard Shaw www.linkedin.com/in/sankarshan

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Rony wrote:

Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote:

...

But the problems with Tally are must more deep rooted. (I suspect you have not bother to read the prev posts on the matter). It allows the user to delete and insert data into any book at any time for any date. It automatically renumbers the vouchers and leaves no audit trail. As a result, if an user changes data, the business owners will never find out. This complete lack of data integrity is a very worrying matter for any business owner who is not sitting and doing all his accounts on his own.

I am no fan of Tally. Based on the previous thread on Tally, I spoke to a person who is Tally user and he mentioned that Tally has 2 modes of data update. One is the main admin type mode which can be password locked and other user type mode which is used to make entries. Only admin mode can do the above mentioned manipulation of data.

This is going OT, as someone will come and say...... One of my clients, a large shipping line tried that. Using things like admin mode did not work with them as the restrictions on the usage was so much that people had to come to the admin guy even to take prints of vouchers. This is a company with lots of resources and adequate budget to pay Tally Support Vendors to get things done right, but in the end the abandoned the efforts.

But the problem is not resolved even if Admin works. Is the business owner actually going to sit down and do all such changes, deletions, etc. Will he be in office every time someone makes a typing mistake and make the correction for that person in the voucher ? Or will he just have to give the control to the sr. accountant who can do what he feels like and there is again no trail to go back and verify who made changes and what changes he made.

Regards Saswata

On 11-Mar-08, at 2:13 PM, Agnello George wrote:

I just came across this website, a linux desktop suitable for small business ( they say ) application Kalculate ..works similar like tally ........... has any one tried this out ??

http://www.openlx.com/index.php

omygod