i've generally found, that if one buying a Mac and one does not want to use Mac OS X(of which some components of the GUI(Aqua) are under non free licenses), either fry the machine and put a GNU/Linux distribution on it or don't use Aqua, install a Free GUI and the other Free app's with along with Darwin. That's the way to go.
Sorry, could not understand what you wanted to convey.
Regards, Debarshi
Quoting Debarshi Ray debarshi.ray@gmail.com:
i've generally found, that if one buying a Mac and one does not want to
use
Mac OS X(of which some components of the GUI(Aqua) are under non free licenses), either fry the machine and put a GNU/Linux distribution on it
or
don't use Aqua, install a Free GUI and the other Free app's with along
with
Darwin. That's the way to go.
Sorry, could not understand what you wanted to convey.
you can run Xwindows on a mac and all X software on top of it - like Ol and inkscape and what have you
i've generally found, that if one buying a Mac and one does not want to
use
Mac OS X(of which some components of the GUI(Aqua) are under non free licenses), either fry the machine and put a GNU/Linux distribution on it
or
don't use Aqua, install a Free GUI and the other Free app's with along
with
Darwin. That's the way to go.
Sorry, could not understand what you wanted to convey.
Mac OS X = GNU(nearly everything) + Darwin Kernel + Aqua GUI + Some Proprietary Apple Applications and Utilities.
O.K, now we have a system on top of which you can install X11(Apple has also implemented X11 in Aqua but its highly customized to support Aqua alone, so we install our own X11 and later other X stuff). Once you have that, you can build(thanks again to GNU) Gnome, KDE etc etc etc on it. Then simply fetch any app you want. In fact there are two projects out there aimed at getting Free Software onto the Mac, one is Fink the other is Darwin Ports. Both essentially let you fetch Free Software(resolving dependencies) from their repositories.
Once you have that why use Aqua and Proprietary Apple Applications and Utilities at all :-)
The other option is format the preloaded Mac OS X when you buy an Apple machine and a GNU/Linux distro on it. Then you essentially have a Free Operating system on the Apple hardware, this can be done just as easily on both older PowerPC Mac's and the newer Intel Mac's.
Regards,
- vihan
On 08-Feb-07, at 12:08 PM, Vihan Pandey wrote:
Free Software onto the Mac, one is Fink the other is Darwin Ports
darwin ports is dead. The opendarwin project was a flop and apple closed it down - it is now macports, which works just like bsd ports - sudo port install foo.
Free Software onto the Mac, one is Fink the other is Darwin Ports
darwin ports is dead.
They just changed the name to Mac Ports. O.K, i agree the ``name" is dead. However i still have Darwin Ports and i still do sudo port install foo and the stuff still goes in /opt/local
Regards,
- vihan
O.K, now we have a system on top of which you can install X11(Apple has also implemented X11 in Aqua but its highly customized to support Aqua alone, so we install our own X11 and later other X stuff). Once you have that, you
<snip>
What's wrong with the X11 bundled by Apple? What do you mean by "customized for Aqua"? I've been able to run all my X11 apps, XFCE included without any trouble on it.
Once you have that why use Aqua and Proprietary Apple Applications and Utilities at all :-)
Because they improve your productivity and generally make things much easier for you, as a developer. I'm not kidding; Xcode bundles a lot of POSIX documentation with it; man pages in HTML format etc etc. No free software has yet been able to match the raw power and ease-of-use that some of the developer tools from Apple give you.
The other option is format the preloaded Mac OS X when you buy an Apple machine and a GNU/Linux distro on it. Then you essentially have a Free Operating system on the Apple hardware, this can be done just as easily on both older PowerPC Mac's and the newer Intel Mac's.
I was indeed running Gentoo Linux natively but it didn't take me long (6 months) to come back to OS X. Part of the reason was that I invested a lot on the Apple hardware but wasn't able to utilize it to the fullest because of the lack of drivers on Linux. The ATi driver that gives you a decent screen to work on was non-free anyway; webcam support was very very buggy and sound was always crackling. Not to mention I had to spend 4 hours in trying to get the in-built microphone to work. Since I have to use non-free software to actually even use my system running Native Linux; why not use OS X?
Also, I can now develop free software for both Mac and Linux; which is awesome. I have a setup where I run Linux in a virtual machine; ssh to it through X11 forwarding and run Linux-Mac apps side by side. This also means that I am free to play around with the kernel as much as I want without fear of screwing up the system. Basically; I'm in a much better position to develop software for Linux by running it on OS X, and wasting minimal time doing it thanks to the awesome, albeit non-free Apple applications (try the debugger bundled with Xcode; it will change your life forever)
My conscience doesn't hurt me when I use non-free tools to create free software. There are also several Free Software built natively for the Mac; and I am now in a position to contribute to them. Short version: I'm loving it :)
What do you mean by "customized for Aqua"?
How is it that native Aqua app's don't launch X11/Xterm before running, and GNU/Linux based X11 apps which have been ported do ?
Because they improve your productivity and generally make things much
easier for you, as a developer. I'm not kidding; Xcode bundles a lot of POSIX documentation with it; man pages in HTML format etc etc. No free software has yet been able to match the raw power and ease-of-use that some of the developer tools from Apple give you.
Agreed. However, its not ``just" about productivity is it? Anyway DRM was never productive for anyone.
I was indeed running Gentoo Linux natively but it didn't take me long (6
months) to come back to OS X. Part of the reason was that I invested a lot on the Apple hardware but wasn't able to utilize it to the fullest because of the lack of drivers on Linux.
i wonder why that is so? ;-) Anyway, let's face it it DOES happen on quite a few laptops.
Also, I can now develop free software for both Mac and Linux; which is
awesome. I have a setup where I run Linux in a virtual machine;
Out of curiosity which one do you use? i had tried some stuff with Bochs, but that was just to see what works and what dosn't. On the intel macs parallels is an option, but a proprietary one.
ssh to
it through X11 forwarding and run Linux-Mac apps side by side. This also means that I am free to play around with the kernel as much as I want without fear of screwing up the system. Basically; I'm in a much better position to develop software for Linux by running it on OS X, and wasting minimal time doing it thanks to the awesome, albeit non-free Apple applications (try the debugger bundled with Xcode; it will change your life forever)
True. i admit i was especially impressed with Interface Builder. i would probably like to play more with Cocoa(mainly for studying how it works) when time permits.
My conscience doesn't hurt me when I use non-free tools to create free
software. There are also several Free Software built natively for the Mac; and I am now in a position to contribute to them. Short version: I'm loving it :)
If you are using it to contribute to make free software, which would give users the 4 freedom's then yes, its not something to be bitterly opposed :-) But its not something i would over enchourage either.
Regards,
- vihan
How is it that native Aqua app's don't launch X11/Xterm before running, and GNU/Linux based X11 apps which have been ported do ?
:)
That's just a matter of configuration. You can change that behavior in the .xinitrc. For more details you can read a recent blog post [1] I made about how to configure your OS X to behave in a more Linuxish way.
The X11 bundled with OS X is not customized; it's a stock 6.8 version with a few tweaks.
Agreed. However, its not ``just" about productivity is it? Anyway DRM was never productive for anyone.
Absolutely. Freedom is paramount. Although DRM was Apple's idea in the first place; they are reconsidering their stance [2] and hopefully Apple should be DRM-Free in a few years.
i wonder why that is so? ;-) Anyway, let's face it it DOES happen on quite a few laptops.
Yep. Linux can't hope to reach out to the masses if we don't have drivers for popular hardware.
Out of curiosity which one do you use? i had tried some stuff with Bochs, but that was just to see what works and what dosn't. On the intel macs parallels is an option, but a proprietary one.
Parallels gives excellent performance, but Q-Kju: [3] is also an awesome open-source VM solution for the Mac.
Cheers,
How is it that native Aqua app's don't launch X11/Xterm before running,
and
GNU/Linux based X11 apps which have been ported do ?
:)
That's just a matter of configuration. You can change that behavior in the .xinitrc. For more details you can read a recent blog post [1] I made about how to configure your OS X to behave in a more Linuxish way.
cool, i didn't know that :-)
Absolutely. Freedom is paramount. Although DRM was Apple's idea in the
first place; they are reconsidering their stance [2] and hopefully Apple should be DRM-Free in a few years.
It is a hope i share.
Out of curiosity which one do you use? i had tried some stuff with Bochs,
but that was just to see what works and what dosn't. On the intel macs parallels is an option, but a proprietary one.
Parallels gives excellent performance, but Q-Kju: [3] is also an awesome open-source VM solution for the Mac.
i'll check that out. Thanks :-)
Cheers!
- vihan
-
Anant Narayanan -
Debarshi Ray -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
lawgon＠au-kbc.org
-
Vihan Pandey