Dear All,
The political support for Free and Open Source Software (FOSS) continues to increase.
The CPI(M) manifesto released on the 16th of March calls for the promotion of FOSS. The manifesto can be accessed at http://www.cpim.org/manifesto.pdf
Following are some of the highlights of the policy - - Promoting FOSS and other such new technologies, which are free from monopoly ownership through copyrights or patents; - Revamping the functioning of the Patent offices to ensure strict adherence to the Indian Patent Act; Stop training and orientation of Indian Patent office personnel by the US and European Patent offices
These above measures are critical to support the public education system, local economy and the knowledge commons and counter neo-liberal pressures that aim to privatize the public information/knowledge domain.
The CPI(M) has been a traditional supporter of free software, the comprehensive IT programs in Kerala, including in the public school system (http://itschool.gov.in/otherprograms.php#6) is based on FOSS. With key parties from both the left and the right end of the political spectrum endorsing FOSS, the Congress is left as the only major national party which is yet to formally take a position on FOSS. One hopes that the Congress too will soon extend its support for free software when it releases its own manifesto next week, and explicitly acknowledge the significant political, socio-cultural and economic advantages of FOSS over proprietary software platforms (see http://public-software.in/FOSS-manifesto for a call from the Network of the FOSS Community in India to the political parties, to recognise the advantages of FOSS in their election manifestos).
Thanks, Vinay.
vinay ವಿನಯ್ wrote:
Dear All,
The political support for Free and Open Source Software (FOSS) continues to increase.
The CPI(M) manifesto released on the 16th of March calls for the promotion of FOSS. The manifesto can be accessed at http://www.cpim.org/manifesto.pdf
Hum,,,,, I know this is not the place for a political discussion but are we talking of the same party which is in government in states like bengal and kerela where government projects are being done only on microsoft technologies, and is insisting on buying only microsoft servers ?f
I think there is a lot of difference between what they say and what they actually do. When (if) they come to power, they promptly forget all of this.
Following are some of the highlights of the policy -
- Promoting FOSS and other such new technologies, which are free from
monopoly ownership through copyrights or patents;
- Revamping the functioning of the Patent offices to ensure strict
adherence to the Indian Patent Act; Stop training and orientation of Indian Patent office personnel by the US and European Patent offices
These above measures are critical to support the public education system, local economy and the knowledge commons and counter neo-liberal pressures that aim to privatize the public information/knowledge domain.
The CPI(M) has been a traditional supporter of free software, the comprehensive IT programs in Kerala, including in the public school system (http://itschool.gov.in/otherprograms.php#6) is based on FOSS. With key parties from both the left and the right end of the political spectrum endorsing FOSS, the Congress is left as the only major national party which is yet to formally take a position on FOSS. One hopes that the Congress too will soon extend its support for free software when it releases its own manifesto next week, and explicitly acknowledge the significant political, socio-cultural and economic advantages of FOSS over proprietary software platforms (see http://public-software.in/FOSS-manifesto for a call from the Network of the FOSS Community in India to the political parties, to recognise the advantages of FOSS in their election manifestos).
Thanks, Vinay.
On Saturday 21 March 2009 15:06:31 scrapo wrote:
The CPI(M) manifesto released on the 16th of March calls for the promotion of FOSS. The manifesto can be accessed at http://www.cpim.org/manifesto.pdf
Hum,,,,, I know this is not the place for a political discussion but are we talking of the same party which is in government in states like bengal and kerela where government projects are being done only on microsoft technologies, and is insisting on buying only microsoft servers ?f
actually those guys seem to think FOSS is like communism (and unfortunately a sizeable chunk of the FOSS community here also thinks so)
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Saturday 21 March 2009 15:06:31 scrapo wrote:
The CPI(M) manifesto released on the 16th of March calls for the promotion of FOSS. The manifesto can be accessed at http://www.cpim.org/manifesto.pdf
Hum,,,,, I know this is not the place for a political discussion but are we talking of the same party which is in government in states like bengal and kerela where government projects are being done only on microsoft technologies, and is insisting on buying only microsoft servers ?f
actually those guys seem to think FOSS is like communism (and unfortunately a sizeable chunk of the FOSS community here also thinks so)
They may like to think FOSS is like communist, but in the end they buy microsoft software as it gives them kickbacks. So dont go hoping for miracles there.
regards saswata
2009/3/21 scrapo scrapo@saswatabanerjee.com
but are we talking of the same party which is in government in states like bengal and kerela where government projects are being done only on microsoft technologies, and is insisting on buying only microsoft
servers
?f
Forgive my ignorance, but dont the communist govts in Kerela and WB *support* FOSS a lot? I mean I am in Bengal and I see groups like IOTA putting in a lot of money for FOSS into institutes and LUGs. Also Kerela is famous for FOSS adoption on a government level right??
On Saturday 21 March 2009 16:53:28 Debayan Banerjee wrote:
but are we talking of the same party which is in government in states like bengal and kerela where government projects are being done only on microsoft technologies, and is insisting on buying only microsoft
servers
?f
Forgive my ignorance, but dont the communist govts in Kerela and WB *support* FOSS a lot? I mean I am in Bengal and I see groups like IOTA putting in a lot of money for FOSS into institutes and LUGs. Also Kerela is famous for FOSS adoption on a government level right??
please give the url of *one* kerala government site where I can download all the wonderful 'foss' software they claim to have developed? Just using linux and php to develop proprietary software doesnt cut it.
2009/3/21 Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org
please give the url of *one* kerala government site where I can download all the wonderful 'foss' software they claim to have developed? Just using linux and php to develop proprietary software doesnt cut it.
One thing we gotta realise is that we should only expect as much concern for FOSS philosophy from their side as much concern FOSS guys have for communist (or any political) ideology. A governemt has so many things to take care of and if a minister takes time to understand in detail the merits of FOSS philosophy (not technology) hats off to him for it is something that even FOSS developers/users dont often appreciate. Also, there are similarities between FOSS ideeology and communist ideology and thank god for that. And there are difference too, and thank God for that too :)
-- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate NRC-FOSS http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ -- http://mm.glug-bom.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
On Saturday 21 March 2009 17:26:57 Debayan Banerjee wrote:
please give the url of *one* kerala government site where I can download all the wonderful 'foss' software they claim to have developed? Just using linux and php to develop proprietary software doesnt cut it.
One thing we gotta realise is that we should only expect as much concern for FOSS philosophy from their side as much concern FOSS guys have for communist (or any political) ideology.
I do not give a rf for foss philosophy. State A uses public money and spends 5 crores developing an application to computerise land records. It runs on linux and uses free software tools. State A keeps the software proprietary. State B, instead of downloading state A's stuff and spending 50 lakh to customise it, spends another 5 crores. Given that there are around 30 states, calculate. I dont give another rf about the tools. If a State developed an application in .net running on doze and released the code, I would be happy.
A governemt has so many things to take care of and if a minister takes time to understand in detail the merits of FOSS philosophy (not technology) hats off to him for it is something that even FOSS developers/users dont often appreciate.
I have interacted with the said minister - he hasn't understood a thing about foss.
Also, there are similarities between FOSS ideeology and communist ideology and thank god for that.
what similarities are there? I cannot see a single one
2009/3/21 Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org
I do not give a rf for foss philosophy. State A uses public money and spends 5 crores developing an application to computerise land records. It runs on linux and uses free software tools. State A keeps the software proprietary. State B, instead of downloading state A's stuff and spending 50 lakh to customise it, spends another 5 crores. Given that there are around 30 states, calculate.
2 ways of looking at it. 1) These 5 crores go to software developers like me and my friends, and then we pay tax out of that same money. 2) Inter-state-govt collaboration sucks. I think the main reasons why govts do not release code are 1) They dont even know what releasing code is 2) they are not 100% confident of the securtiy implications anyways. There is a disconnect between the tech-guy who does understand all this and is with the govt (Someone like you Kenneth) and the people who make these decisions (like a minster).
I
dont give another rf about the tools. If a State developed an application in .net running on doze and released the code, I would be happy.
I have interacted with the said minister - he hasn't understood a thing about foss.
Maybe what you mean is that he does not understand it as well as you do. If you really mean what you say then may be he was in a bad mood or something.. i dunno.
Also, there are similarities between FOSS ideeology and communist
ideology
and thank god for that.
what similarities are there? I cannot see a single one
Well the communists seem to think that there are similarities and maybe they are wrong at that.
From my understanding (and I am no communist fan so i dont know for sure)
the 2 topics the minster spoke about freeing ourselves from 1) Monopoly of MS 2) Vendor Lock are good and liberating ideals. I guess communists dont like thses 2 things and i dont know if they are mentioned in the "Communist Manifesto" or not but real world communist supporters do seem to dislike these things. Basically a govt which does not look west ward for every damn purchase is good for FOSS in the long run IMO.
-- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate NRC-FOSS http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ -- http://mm.glug-bom.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
On Saturday 21 March 2009 18:09:50 Debayan Banerjee wrote:
Basically a govt which does not look west ward for every damn purchase is good for FOSS in the long run IMO.
I will reply to the other points in your mail when I cool down a bit, but have you realised how much of FOSS is developed in the west? Do you not realise that if the govt adopts foss, they are dependant on westerners who have developed it?
I will reply to the other points in your mail when I cool down a bit,
Please dont be angry. Sorry to have offended you.
but have you realised how much of FOSS is developed in the west?
And that can change if we get a non-west-looking proprietary-hating government. Somewhat like what happens in Russia and China?
Do you not realise that if the govt adopts foss, they are dependant on westerners who have developed it?
I dont understand. If government uses MySql are they dependent on that specific company to maintain and develop bits? The point is any home-grown startup can help the govt out then. Right? And the bigger cause is that MySql is developed on open standards etc so a company like ORACLE does not push their own special formats through our arteries. The issue is that the govt should encourage FOSS usage at all levels so that there is no vendor lock and they are not dependant on a single huge organisation for maintenance etc. This huge organisation may then spread their proprietary formats through govt policy etc.
-- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate NRC-FOSS http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ -- http://mm.glug-bom.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
Debayan Banerjee wrote:
And that can change if we get a non-west-looking proprietary-hating government. Somewhat like what happens in Russia and China?
Please dont consider China or Russia as role models. They only used FOSS / Linux to hold Microsoft at ransom. It was a mere ploy to get Microsoft to reduce its pricing in their country and especially for the Chinese government. Russia too is heading the same way.
- Dinesh
Hello,
On 22-Mar-09, at 1:39, "Dinesh A. Joshi" dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
Debayan Banerjee wrote:
And that can change if we get a non-west-looking proprietary-hating government. Somewhat like what happens in Russia and China?
Please dont consider China or Russia as role models. They only used FOSS / Linux to hold Microsoft at ransom. It was a mere ploy to get Microsoft to reduce its pricing in their country and especially for the Chinese government. Russia too is heading the same way.
I don't think this is true, coz microsoft hasn't reduced price for the janta there in Russia or china. They always have given preferential pricing model with govt customers and in some cases here in India they have sold their windows license almost at near to free of cost models. While made their profits from selling something else in the same deal.
We all can just talk and/or rant about software that govt uses to manage its governance, when it comes to execution and getting the real things done at govt perspective the tender system generally srlect the CHEAPEST ONE on the bid and this is where proprietory product companies are working and taking advantage.
So having manifest is good but real execution lies in modifying the TENDER rules and regulation and matrix of identifying and rewarding/ punishing/banning, execellent / nasty / defaulted services vendor.
Without solving the above point we can still have no fundamental desired results,
Regards, Mitul Limbani, Founder & CEO, Enterux Solutions Pvt. Ltd., The Enterprise Linux Company (r), http://www.enterux.com/ http://www.entVoice.com/training/
2009/3/22 Mitul Limbani mitul@enterux.com
So having manifest is good but real execution lies in modifying the TENDER rules and regulation and matrix of identifying and rewarding/ punishing/banning, execellent / nasty / defaulted services vendor.
+1
2009/3/22 Dinesh A. Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com
Debayan Banerjee wrote:
Please dont consider China or Russia as role models. They only used FOSS / Linux to hold Microsoft at ransom. It was a mere ploy to get Microsoft to reduce its pricing in their country and especially for the Chinese government. Russia too is heading the same way.
OK did not know that.
- Dinesh
And that can change if we get a non-west-looking proprietary-hating government. Somewhat like what happens in Russia and China?
Please dont consider China or Russia as role models. They only used FOSS / Linux to hold Microsoft at ransom. It was a mere ploy to get Microsoft to reduce its pricing in their country and especially for the Chinese government. Russia too is heading the same way.
So what is wrong if they use licensed versions? It is not illegal. As pointed before, the FOSS community need to set up more companies to provide support etc.. Without the support backbone it will be illogical to criticise Govts. for not adopting FOSS.
And at least those Govts. know how to get the price reduced. Our Govt. likes to pay on the higher side of the MRP ;)
Vikram Vincent wrote:
And at least those Govts. know how to get the price reduced. Our Govt. likes to pay on the higher side of the MRP ;)
Lots of issues involved. Lets not get into them.
- Dinesh
This is my first post here in last may be 4-5 years. I stopped posting and reading the ilug-bom mailing lists when I left Mumbai in first quarter of 2003. I have re-joined the list two days back and am happy to see that the list is still active. Though I have not seen any technical discussions going on. But I sure I will see something good soon.
My reply to the thread:-
Government can hire people for support. Two advantages this way:
1. They will get talented people on board and the cost of support this way will be less then what they pay to the proprietary players for support and consultancy. 2. They are creating jobs which is good for them to use as a card for the next election.
-- Regards Pankaj
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 8:32 AM, Vikram Vincent vincentvikram@gmail.comwrote:
And that can change if we get a non-west-looking proprietary-hating government. Somewhat like what happens in Russia and China?
Please dont consider China or Russia as role models. They only used FOSS / Linux to hold Microsoft at ransom. It was a mere ploy to get Microsoft to reduce its pricing in their country and especially for the Chinese government. Russia too is heading the same way.
So what is wrong if they use licensed versions? It is not illegal. As pointed before, the FOSS community need to set up more companies to provide support etc.. Without the support backbone it will be illogical to criticise Govts. for not adopting FOSS.
And at least those Govts. know how to get the price reduced. Our Govt. likes to pay on the higher side of the MRP ;) -- http://mm.glug-bom.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
Pankaj Jangid wrote:
This is my first post here in last may be 4-5 years. I stopped posting and reading the ilug-bom mailing lists when I left Mumbai in first quarter of 2003. I have re-joined the list two days back and am happy to see that the list is still active. Though I have not seen any technical discussions going on. But I sure I will see something good soon.
Pray that you dont get ambushed for top posting :P. Welcome back :)
- Dinesh
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 8:47 AM, Pankaj Jangid pankaj.jangid@gmail.com wrote:
This is my first post here in last may be 4-5 years. I stopped posting and reading the ilug-bom mailing lists when I left Mumbai in first quarter of 2003. I have re-joined the list two days back and am happy to see that the list is still active. Though I have not seen any technical discussions going on. But I sure I will see something good soon.
My reply to the thread:-
Government can hire people for support. Two advantages this way:
- They will get talented people on board and the cost of support this way
will be less then what they pay to the proprietary players for support and consultancy.
Like pvt companies they too believe and deal with Vendor's, Consultants not much until there is some specific need or they are getting stuck somewhere in the project when the want to save there face etc.. I have not seen these kind of companies , the companies which are there don't know how to play this game well as yet.
- They are creating jobs which is good for them to use as a card for the
next election.
No they will not get guys on full time positions , i am ok to live with opportunities to individuals and SME's with level playing field , it actually starts much early on when the RFP's are drafted etc..
-Satya http://www.linkedin.com/in/satyaakam Ps: In one of most recent cases i dealt with the officer in charge was not ready to pay for drafting specs.Which as an individual i definitely cannot afford.
Pankaj Jangid wrote:
Government can hire people for support. Two advantages this way:
- They will get talented people on board and the cost of support this way
will be less then what they pay to the proprietary players for support and consultancy. 2. They are creating jobs which is good for them to use as a card for the next election.
From the various opinions expressed here, IMHO, adoption of FOSS and Open Standards by a Govt. goes much beyond using FOSS on Govt. computers and having competent vendors to support FOSS installations. The Govt. has to create a National knowledge infrastructure that is everything related to FOSS.
This includes:-
1) Introduction and sponsoring of FOSS education in Schools, Colleges and other educational institutions. 2) Sponsoring the development and advancement of FOSS programming in Educational Institutions. This also includes providing high bandwidth and unlimited online storage space for FOS software development and download. 3) Organise and encourage youngsters from the school level to participate in FOSS programming camps (Like summer of code). 4) _Identify_ and encourage the development of FOSS alternatives to expensive commercial closed softwares for Graphics, Animation, Drafting, HRD, Accounting etc. 5) As the first 4 processes gain momentum, adopt open data standards in all Govt. institutions. By this time FOSS the knowledge infrastructure should be able to handle this heavy load. 6) Provide tax benefits to private organisations to adopt open standards. Specially encourage Software training institutes to teach FOSS instead of closed software.
If these points are acceptable, they can be added to the FOSS manifesto as a common minimum program that is expected of any Govt. that comes to power.
-- Regards,
Rony.
GNU/Linux ! No Viruses No Spyware Only Freedom.
On Sunday 22 Mar 2009, Rony wrote:
Pankaj Jangid wrote:
Government can hire people for support. Two advantages this way:
- They will get talented people on board and the cost of support
this way will be less then what they pay to the proprietary players for support and consultancy. 2. They are creating jobs which is good for them to use as a card for the next election.
From the various opinions expressed here, IMHO, adoption of FOSS and Open Standards by a Govt. goes much beyond using FOSS on Govt. computers and having competent vendors to support FOSS installations. The Govt. has to create a National knowledge infrastructure that is everything related to FOSS.
This includes:-
- Introduction and sponsoring of FOSS education in Schools,
Colleges and other educational institutions. 2) Sponsoring the development and advancement of FOSS programming in Educational Institutions. This also includes providing high bandwidth and unlimited online storage space for FOS software development and download. 3) Organise and encourage youngsters from the school level to participate in FOSS programming camps (Like summer of code). 4) _Identify_ and encourage the development of FOSS alternatives to expensive commercial closed softwares for Graphics, Animation, Drafting, HRD, Accounting etc. 5) As the first 4 processes gain momentum, adopt open data standards in all Govt. institutions. By this time FOSS the knowledge infrastructure should be able to handle this heavy load. 6) Provide tax benefits to private organisations to adopt open standards. Specially encourage Software training institutes to teach FOSS instead of closed software.
If these points are acceptable, they can be added to the FOSS manifesto as a common minimum program that is expected of any Govt. that comes to power.
Actually they need to do 5 first and compulsorily . This is because it is a fundamental requirement (or should be) that open standards be used on all public data. This is irrespective of the costs involved or the infrastructure available. Wherever the infrastructure is not available, the government puts it up and allows private individuals and organistaions to participate, therby spreading outwards.
The rest will fall into place.
If you attempt the order specified, the closed guys will accuse the government of bias.
snip...
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 12:57 AM, Debayan Banerjee debayanin@gmail.comwrote:
Do you not realise that if the govt adopts foss, they are dependant on westerners who have developed it?
I dont understand. If government uses MySql are they dependent on that specific company to maintain and develop bits? The point is any home-grown startup can help the govt out then. Right? And the bigger cause is that MySql is developed on open standards etc so a company like ORACLE does not push their own special formats through our arteries.
As per my understanding of FOSS, i may take and modify the source code and make my own localized software, as a developer I may give it back to the community. However, for the original software, I still have to go back to the parent company. Localizations given back to the community (third party) needs to be ported to the new update. If not, then either donot update to latest version and/or make a new build.
So, IMHO yes we are dependent on the company and community responsible for maintaining the software to make sure there are no vulnerabilties. Here, we just build on top of the existing software and keep it to ourself and when an update comes in either ignore it or start a new porting
Cyril Chacko
On Saturday 21 Mar 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Saturday 21 March 2009 18:09:50 Debayan Banerjee wrote:
Basically a govt which does not look west ward for every damn purchase is good for FOSS in the long run IMO.
I will reply to the other points in your mail when I cool down a bit, but have you realised how much of FOSS is developed in the west? Do you not realise that if the govt adopts foss, they are dependant on westerners who have developed it?
The whole point of FOSS is that the source code is available, and anyone with the requisite skills, regardless of location, colour, caste, creed, religion or gender can modify, enhance, customise and localise it.
The difference between, say, Oracle and MySQL is that only Oracle can modify their database, whereas anyone can modify MySQL.
</FOSS-101>
Regards,
-- Raju
Hello,
On 22-Mar-09, at 10:54, Raj Mathur raju@linux-delhi.org wrote:
On Saturday 21 Mar 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Saturday 21 March 2009 18:09:50 Debayan Banerjee wrote:
Basically a govt which does not look west ward for every damn purchase is good for FOSS in the long run IMO.
I will reply to the other points in your mail when I cool down a bit, but have you realised how much of FOSS is developed in the west? Do you not realise that if the govt adopts foss, they are dependant on westerners who have developed it?
The whole point of FOSS is that the source code is available, and anyone with the requisite skills, regardless of location, colour, caste, creed, religion or gender can modify, enhance, customise and localise it.
The difference between, say, Oracle and MySQL is that only Oracle can modify their database, whereas anyone can modify MySQL.
</FOSS-101>
Lemme be devils advocate here, you never need to modify source code of oracle or mysql you just need a DBA or developer to make the data residing in the database more meaningful...
And oracle for that matter has more DBAs out in Market ( more competition ) then mysql so its a more competitive deal for businesses/ govt to decide on oracle then mysql, they find mysql to be locking in for maintenance then oracle.
Second bigger problem is that there are fewer companies who have great mysql hackers and generally are of small size and this results in going in-eligible in the tender bidding process.
Think a bit from buyers perspctive for a minute and suddenly you realise where are we standing wrt FOSS and market competitiveness?
Regards, Mitul Limbani.
On Sunday 22 Mar 2009, Mitul Limbani wrote:
On 22-Mar-09, at 10:54, Raj Mathur raju@linux-delhi.org wrote:
On Saturday 21 Mar 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
I will reply to the other points in your mail when I cool down a bit, but have you realised how much of FOSS is developed in the west? Do you not realise that if the govt adopts foss, they are dependant on westerners who have developed it?
The whole point of FOSS is that the source code is available, and anyone with the requisite skills, regardless of location, colour, caste, creed, religion or gender can modify, enhance, customise and localise it.
The difference between, say, Oracle and MySQL is that only Oracle can modify their database, whereas anyone can modify MySQL.
</FOSS-101>
Lemme be devils advocate here, you never need to modify source code of oracle or mysql you just need a DBA or developer to make the data residing in the database more meaningful...
And oracle for that matter has more DBAs out in Market ( more competition ) then mysql so its a more competitive deal for businesses/ govt to decide on oracle then mysql, they find mysql to be locking in for maintenance then oracle.
Please don't take one statement and one example in my message out of context and make an argument against that. What I said was in the context of KG's statement ``if the govt adopts foss, they are dependant on westerners who have developed it?'', which is patently incorrect. I wasn't discussing the relative availabilities of Oracle vs MySQL DBAs at all -- that's a completely different kettle of fish.
Second bigger problem is that there are fewer companies who have great mysql hackers and generally are of small size and this results in going in-eligible in the tender bidding process.
Think a bit from buyers perspctive for a minute and suddenly you realise where are we standing wrt FOSS and market competitiveness?
Once again, are we discussing the potential ability to support FOSS or are we discussing FOSS competitiveness? I still maintain that potentially anyone, not just the original developers, can enhance, diminish, localise and customise FOSS, which is not the case with proprietary software. In fact that's such a blatantly obvious characteristic of FOSS that I'm surprised I'm having to iterate that again and again on a mailing list where, supposedly, people who know about FOSS gather.
Availability of support, on the other hand, is a factor that varies with time and location, so I'm not making any definitive statements about that. Today Oracle may have more DBAs available, tomorrow DB2, PostgreSQL the day after that and MySQL the next day. That's a function of the market, and not related to FOSS in any way. There are probably just 20 people in the country today who understand and can configure Asterisk as opposed to, say, an Alcatel or Lucent PBX -- does that mean that Asterisk is an invalid solution to any problem today?
Regards,
-- Raju
On Sunday 22 March 2009 17:58:55 Raj Mathur wrote:
context of KG's statement ``if the govt adopts foss, they are dependant on westerners who have developed it?'', which is patently incorrect
this is not a statemnt, it is a sarcastic comment on the idiocy of classifying software on the basis of country of origin
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 9:11 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
On Sunday 22 March 2009 17:58:55 Raj Mathur wrote:
context of KG's statement ``if the govt adopts foss, they are dependant on westerners who have developed it?'', which is patently incorrect
this is not a statemnt, it is a sarcastic comment on the idiocy of classifying software on the basis of country of origin
http://www.linux.com/feature/60114 'Commie code.' anyone? :)
Regards, Mohan S N
Mohan Nayaka wrote:
http://www.linux.com/feature/60114 'Commie code.' anyone? :)
Seriously, its not funny associating Free / Open Source with Communism.
- Dinesh
On Monday 23 March 2009 10:31:00 Dinesh A. Joshi wrote:
Mohan Nayaka wrote:
http://www.linux.com/feature/60114 'Commie code.' anyone? :)
Seriously, its not funny associating Free / Open Source with Communism.
read the article before making silly comments. It clearly shows that the certification of a free software for military use was held up because of an objection that it contained 'commie code' (that is code written by a Russian)
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Sunday 22 March 2009 17:58:55 Raj Mathur wrote:
context of KG's statement ``if the govt adopts foss, they are dependant on westerners who have developed it?'', which is patently incorrect
this is not a statemnt, it is a sarcastic comment on the idiocy of classifying software on the basis of country of origin
It does make a difference if the software is closed and in control of outsiders. Openness of a software removes these boundaries. Tomorrow if there is an international political crisis, the country of origin of the closed software can force the company to stop dealing with an individual Nation/s. FOSS is a free open pool. We don't really know what information goes out of a system running closed software when it connects to the suppliers' websites for updates.
On Monday 23 Mar 2009, Rony wrote:
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Sunday 22 March 2009 17:58:55 Raj Mathur wrote:
context of KG's statement ``if the govt adopts foss, they are dependant on westerners who have developed it?'', which is patently incorrect
this is not a statemnt, it is a sarcastic comment on the idiocy of classifying software on the basis of country of origin
It does make a difference if the software is closed and in control of outsiders. Openness of a software removes these boundaries. Tomorrow if there is an international political crisis, the country of origin of the closed software can force the company to stop dealing with an individual Nation/s.
That goes for any closed software, even indigenous ones. Reason - toolchains. Infact every element in the system will have to be indigenous. Something impossible in today's electronic systems. The more the number of closed components the worse it will get.
FOSS is a free open pool. We don't really know what information goes out of a system running closed software when it connects to the suppliers' websites for updates.
Just one of many such important points. Like the PMO office mail system infected with some virus or the other for a full 3 months. Mails from the Services did not reach the PM. Maybe they reached Gilani.
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 11:08 AM, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
On Monday 23 Mar 2009, Rony wrote:
It does make a difference if the software is closed and in control of outsiders. Openness of a software removes these boundaries. Tomorrow if there is an international political crisis, the country of origin of the closed software can force the company to stop dealing with an individual Nation/s.
That goes for any closed software, even indigenous ones. Reason - toolchains. Infact every element in the system will have to be indigenous. Something impossible in today's electronic systems. The more the number of closed components the worse it will get.
Actually, this is one area where open source is not that important. Given the way the global economy works, this is true for just about anything. And, more importantly, for anyone. Can you think of any country that can manage own its own? The age of independence has been replaced by the one of interdependence. The key point is that this is not a bad thing. It actually reduces the chances of violent interactions. The politicians and the hawks will have you believe otherwise but commerce has been the biggest contributor to peace the world over.
If you really wanted to be independent, you'd have to start by making yourself a universe[1].
[1] http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/26980.html
On Sunday 22 March 2009 10:54:13 Raj Mathur wrote:
The difference between, say, Oracle and MySQL is that only Oracle can modify their database, whereas anyone can modify MySQL.
no - not anyone can modify mysql
I have now cooled down, so am replying to some points in this mail
On Saturday 21 March 2009 18:09:50 Debayan Banerjee wrote:
I do not give a rf for foss philosophy. State A uses public money and spends 5 crores developing an application to computerise land records. It runs on linux and uses free software tools. State A keeps the software proprietary. State B, instead of downloading state A's stuff and spending 50 lakh to customise it, spends another 5 crores. Given that there are around 30 states, calculate.
2 ways of looking at it. 1) These 5 crores go to software developers like me and my friends, and then we pay tax out of that same money.
here we go - I am on record in saying that one of the biggest stumbling blocks to the adoption of FOSS in this country is that the FOSS movement here is largely controlled by IT professionals. Most of these guys are terrified of losing their jobs if all software was made free. Most of them make a living out of developing proprietary software and selling it as a commodity. Software is NOT a commodity. A government that spends 5 crores of public money has no right to keep it closed just to benefit you and your friends. And you and your friends have no right to make another 30 state governments pay you for reinventing the wheel - at public expense.
Inter-state-govt collaboration sucks.
where is the need for inter-state-govt collaboration? If state A puts code up for free download, state B has no need to even to be on speaking terms with state A to use/modify the said software.
I think the main reasons why govts do not release code are 1) They dont even know what releasing code is 2) they are not 100% confident of the securtiy implications anyways.
both of those are true - I have experienced it. But more important is the fundamental tendency for government to consider the public as the enemy, and thus to do their utmost to prevent any - even the most harmless - information to 'leak' to the public. And this is usually because they need to cover up corruption, goof-ups etc
There is a disconnect between the tech-guy who does understand all this and is with the govt (Someone like you Kenneth) and the people who make these decisions (like a minster).
ministers do not make these decisions - it is the babu's who do. And they are expert at sabotaging any decision made by a minister. But, as I said, the real enemy is the IT professional who is scared of losing his income if software was freed. My brother is a passionate advocate of linux/foss, but his software companies only produce proprietary software. His rationale is: 'it's ok for you, you do not need to feed your family or meet monthly salary bills, so you can afford to release everything you write.'
Our openstreetmap stall at OSI tech days in Chennai was a huge draw. But 90% of the people had the same question: 'If the data is free, how do you guys make money?'
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
I have now cooled down, so am replying to some points in this mail
On Saturday 21 March 2009 18:09:50 Debayan Banerjee wrote:
I do not give a rf for foss philosophy. State A uses public money and spends 5 crores developing an application to computerise land records. It runs on linux and uses free software tools. State A keeps the software proprietary. State B, instead of downloading state A's stuff and spending 50 lakh to customise it, spends another 5 crores. Given that there are around 30 states, calculate.
2 ways of looking at it. 1) These 5 crores go to software developers like me and my friends, and then we pay tax out of that same money.
here we go - I am on record in saying that one of the biggest stumbling blocks to the adoption of FOSS in this country is that the FOSS movement here is largely controlled by IT professionals. Most of these guys are terrified of losing their jobs if all software was made free. Most of them make a living out of developing proprietary software and selling it as a commodity. Software is NOT a commodity. A government that spends 5 crores of public money has no right to keep it closed just to benefit you and your friends. And you and your friends have no right to make another 30 state governments pay you for reinventing the wheel - at public expense.
Very well said, Kenneth! Using the FOSS model for their internal software development can save the Indian government thousands of crores of rupees, reduce risk of software failure, enable sharing of best practices etc.
In the US, The Defense Information Systems Agency (DISA) has established a cooperative research and development agreement (CRADA) with the Open Source Software Institute in an effort to bolster collaboration between the federal government and other entities. When will we learn?
DISA makes software collaboration agreement
http://fcw.com/articles/2009/03/20/disa-collaborate.aspx
Venky
On Monday 23 Mar 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
I have now cooled down, so am replying to some points in this mail
On Saturday 21 March 2009 18:09:50 Debayan Banerjee wrote:
I do not give a rf for foss philosophy. State A uses public money and spends 5 crores developing an application to computerise land records. It runs on linux and uses free software tools. State A keeps the software proprietary. State B, instead of downloading state A's stuff and spending 50 lakh to customise it, spends another 5 crores. Given that there are around 30 states, calculate.
2 ways of looking at it. 1) These 5 crores go to software developers like me and my friends, and then we pay tax out of that same money.
here we go - I am on record in saying that one of the biggest stumbling blocks to the adoption of FOSS in this country is that the FOSS movement here is largely controlled by IT professionals.
Who else do you think should be in "control"? And isnt this true everywhere?.
Most of these guys are terrified of losing their jobs if all software was made free.
That still does not explain why the babu has to decide against FOSS.
Most of them make a living out of developing proprietary software and selling it as a commodity. Software is NOT a commodity. A government that spends 5 crores of public money has no right to keep it closed just to benefit you and your friends. And you and your friends have no right to make another 30 state governments pay you for reinventing the wheel - at public expense.
Inter-state-govt collaboration sucks.
where is the need for inter-state-govt collaboration? If state A puts code up for free download, state B has no need to even to be on speaking terms with state A to use/modify the said software.
I think the main reasons why govts do not release code are 1) They dont even know what releasing code is 2) they are not 100% confident of the securtiy implications anyways.
both of those are true - I have experienced it. But more important is the fundamental tendency for government to consider the public as the enemy, and thus to do their utmost to prevent any - even the most harmless - information to 'leak' to the public. And this is usually because they need to cover up corruption, goof-ups etc
There is a disconnect between the tech-guy who does understand all this and is with the govt (Someone like you Kenneth) and the people who make these decisions (like a minster).
ministers do not make these decisions - it is the babu's who do. And they are expert at sabotaging any decision made by a minister. But, as I said, the real enemy is the IT professional who is scared of losing his income if software was freed. My brother is a passionate advocate of linux/foss, but his software companies only produce proprietary software. His rationale is: 'it's ok for you, you do not need to feed your family or meet monthly salary bills, so you can afford to release everything you write.'
Your point is that 1) The IT professional does not advise the government correctly 2) FOSS movement should not be in control of IT pros 3) Corruption is partly responsible for FOSS non adoption
To which i add 4) The few babus who half heartedly venture always hit the compatibility with M$ roadblock 5) Tender norms are heavily loaded against FOSS 6) Non visibility (as opposed to availability) of support at ground level at time T0 7) Utter lack of understanding of the FOSS biz model at all levels.
Our openstreetmap stall at OSI tech days in Chennai was a huge draw. But 90% of the people had the same question: 'If the data is free, how do you guys make money?'
-- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate NRC-FOSS http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
On Monday 23 March 2009 13:55:36 jtd wrote:
here we go - I am on record in saying that one of the biggest stumbling blocks to the adoption of FOSS in this country is that the FOSS movement here is largely controlled by IT professionals.
Who else do you think should be in "control"? And isnt this true everywhere?.
the word 'control' is wrong - 'the majority of FOSS community are IT professionals' is better. Elsewhere there are also a huge number of people who are non-IT professionals who contribute. I remember being on the mailing list of a open source accounting system - 90% of the users and contributors were accountants! Or the developers of GNUmed - most of them are practicing doctors. This is not happening in India. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, merchants, librarians and large numbers of others are just not into software development, even at the end user level. A FOSS alternative to tally will only emerge when some accountant starts developing software - the IT professional does not see the need.
Most of these guys are terrified of losing their jobs if all software was made free.
That still does not explain why the babu has to decide against FOSS.
the babu consults the professional
Your point is that
- The IT professional does not advise the government correctly
not exactly - any foss projects starts when someone scratches an itch - the reason why very little application software emerges in Indian space is that not enough non-IT people are doing this, and the IT professionals do not have this type of itch.
- FOSS movement should not be in control of IT pros
not exactly - I cannot prescribe what should and should not be. I can only say that it is when non-IT pros in big numbers start developing that the movement will make real headway.
- Corruption is partly responsible for FOSS non adoption
yes
To which i add 4) The few babus who half heartedly venture always hit the compatibility with M$ roadblock 5) Tender norms are heavily loaded against FOSS 6) Non visibility (as opposed to availability) of support at ground level at time T0 7) Utter lack of understanding of the FOSS biz model at all levels.
agreed
On Monday 23 Mar 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Monday 23 March 2009 13:55:36 jtd wrote:
here we go - I am on record in saying that one of the biggest stumbling blocks to the adoption of FOSS in this country is that the FOSS movement here is largely controlled by IT professionals.
Who else do you think should be in "control"? And isnt this true everywhere?.
the word 'control' is wrong - 'the majority of FOSS community are IT professionals' is better. Elsewhere there are also a huge number of people who are non-IT professionals who contribute. I remember being on the mailing list of a open source accounting system - 90% of the users and contributors were accountants! Or the developers of GNUmed - most of them are practicing doctors. This is not happening in India. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, merchants, librarians and large numbers of others are just not into software development, even at the end user level.
Could be because only a fraction of the individuals in the above group actually use computers for business in India. (Typing letters shall not count as being used for business.)
A FOSS alternative to tally will only emerge when some accountant starts developing software - the IT professional does not see the need.
Same reason as above.
On the list we have a few non it guys who actually use computers in their business ( eg. Dr. Sharukh, Saswata) and they are keenly interested in the art.
Most of these guys are terrified of losing their jobs if all software was made free.
That still does not explain why the babu has to decide against FOSS.
the babu consults the professional
Your point is that
- The IT professional does not advise the government correctly
not exactly - any foss projects starts when someone scratches an itch - the reason why very little application software emerges in Indian space is that not enough non-IT people are doing this, and the IT professionals do not have this type of itch.
- FOSS movement should not be in control of IT pros
not exactly - I cannot prescribe what should and should not be. I can only say that it is when non-IT pros in big numbers start developing that the movement will make real headway.
This would happen when non IT individuals and small businesses start using computers in their business in large numbers. In the west a good 10 to 12 years elapsed before computers began to be widely used by individuals. About the same time when FOSS started taking off. Around the same time large businesses started setting up IT infrastructure in India. And after a lag of 8 to 10 years IT pros started looking into FOSS. The timelines tally more or less. So we should be seeing another five to eight years of creeping growth. There may well be many acelerating factors to shorten the time lines. But it should be more or less on these lines.
- Corruption is partly responsible for FOSS non adoption
yes
To which i add 4) The few babus who half heartedly venture always hit the compatibility with M$ roadblock 5) Tender norms are heavily loaded against FOSS 6) Non visibility (as opposed to availability) of support at ground level at time T0 7) Utter lack of understanding of the FOSS biz model at all levels.
agreed
-- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate NRC-FOSS http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/
On Monday 23 March 2009 15:45:18 jtd wrote:
A FOSS alternative to tally will only emerge when some accountant starts developing software - the IT professional does not see the need.
Same reason as above.
On the list we have a few non it guys who actually use computers in their business ( eg. Dr. Sharukh, Saswata) and they are keenly interested in the art.
and me? YOU LEFT ME OUT????????
On Monday 23 Mar 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Monday 23 March 2009 15:45:18 jtd wrote:
A FOSS alternative to tally will only emerge when some accountant starts developing software - the IT professional does not see the need.
Same reason as above.
On the list we have a few non it guys who actually use computers in their business ( eg. Dr. Sharukh, Saswata) and they are keenly interested in the art.
and me? YOU LEFT ME OUT????????
EEK. Ya ya you too. You are sort of ingrained in my head as IT pro. Saswata too. But I remember that Saswata is a CA and never remember that you were a lawyer. But then you dont use comps for law work.
On Monday 23 March 2009 16:53:46 jtd wrote:
and me? YOU LEFT ME OUT????????
EEK. Ya ya you too. You are sort of ingrained in my head as IT pro. Saswata too. But I remember that Saswata is a CA and never remember that you were a lawyer. But then you dont use comps for law work.
I was the first lawyer in India to have a computer network - and wrote case management software in 1989 (and, no, the code is not available, it got lost in a hard disk crash) Rival lawyers used to complain to the judges that I was getting an unfair advantage by using a computer.
On Tuesday 24 Mar 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Monday 23 March 2009 16:53:46 jtd wrote:
and me? YOU LEFT ME OUT????????
EEK. Ya ya you too. You are sort of ingrained in my head as IT pro. Saswata too. But I remember that Saswata is a CA and never remember that you were a lawyer. But then you dont use comps for law work.
I was the first lawyer in India to have a computer network - and wrote case management software in 1989 (and, no, the code is not available, it got lost in a hard disk crash) Rival lawyers used to complain to the judges that I was getting an unfair advantage by using a computer.
HA HA. Hope the judge never bought that line.
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
A FOSS alternative to tally will only emerge when some accountant starts developing software - the IT professional does not see the need.
It is already happening and you should hear good news soon. Let the guys doing it reveal it all.
On Tuesday 24 March 2009 00:10:45 Rony wrote:
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
A FOSS alternative to tally will only emerge when some accountant starts developing software - the IT professional does not see the need.
It is already happening and you should hear good news soon. Let the guys doing it reveal it all.
is it a secret?
On Saturday 21 Mar 2009, Debayan Banerjee wrote:
Also, there are similarities between FOSS ideeology and communist ideology and thank god for that. And there are difference too, and thank God for that too :)
Nothing can be further from reality than the above statement. Communists intentionally control the flow of every available resource, thereby creating shortages. This thus prevents everyone from using their abilities in the best possible way and abrogates control to the man in the middle. Once this happens you destroy everything. In the initial phase, robbing tom to feed jerry works very well. But pretty soon all the Toms are dead and you start robbing Jerry.
OTOH FOSS insists on decontrol, which makes available all resources to everyone. This automatically creates an economy of plenty. And allows - no encourages - everone to utilise resources to the best of their ability.
Communism is capitalism with a cruel twist - capitalism of shortages. And you can absolutely have a capitalism of shortages within a "free" economy. ENRON was responsible (along with a few other Bush cronies) for the worst power shortages in CAL - not Calcutta - California. The irony. FOSS is the capitalism of plenty. Capitalism of shortages benefits a few - licence and permit raj Capitalism of plenty benefits everybody.
Dont ever make the mistake of comparing FOSS to communism, they have absolutely nothing in common - save the communist FUD of helping the poor.
Having said the above, I must admit that the communists are the only bunch of politicians with an iota of cluefulness about anything, including a pile of rocks under the sea.
And if you read the posts on LK Advanis forums, you will want to commit suicide. This bunch is as fearful of openness as the commies. One of my posts was neatly mangled to imply that i was (at least partially) in agreement with their philosophy on security and "Hindutva".
Hi List,
I would like to see this list more as technically oriented than a place for political debate. So I abstained from responding to this thread, though I have been watching it with great interest.
Now I decided to respond as I see how poor is the understanding of communism among our list members. I insist only on 'good' understanding. It may be from any point of view. But 'no understanding' can not be excused. No research, no right to speak.
I agree with Debayan Banerjee's comment that:
Also, there are similarities between FOSS ideeology and communist ideology and thank god for that. And there are difference too, and thank God for that too :)
Because, communism's aim is abolishment of private property, basically, of the means of production. Technology is one of the means of production. FOSS wants to keep technology as public, which is actually the aim of communism.
In response to Banerjee's comment, On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 10:59 AM, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
Nothing can be further from reality than the above statement.
Communists intentionally control the flow of every available resource, thereby creating shortages. This thus prevents everyone from using their abilities in the best possible way and abrogates control to the man in the middle. Once this happens you destroy everything. In the initial phase, robbing tom to feed jerry works very well. But pretty soon all the Toms are dead and you start robbing Jerry.
This is absolutely wrong. Actually communism never been realized anywhere. It's a stage only in concept that comes after capitalism. And communism will happen only in abundance. Communism aims at unleashing of all productive forces, to end the alienation of individual with the productive system and to allow every individual to live up to his or her creativity power. There won't be any kind of compulsion by (productive) system on individuals, so to work is not at all burden, but a way for pleasure and joy. Marx sees such a person as one who in the morning will go for fishing, at noon for reading books and in the evening for writing poems.
JDT continues:
OTOH FOSS insists on decontrol, which makes available all resources to everyone. This automatically creates an economy of plenty. And allows - no encourages - everone to utilise resources to the best of their ability.
Communists' opposition to capitalism, particularly monopoly capitalism of today is on the account that it curtails the progress of human kind because it keeps science and technology as well as the means of production under the control of a few. At technology front capitalists are playing two roles: 1. Constantly innovate technology through research and technology for being competitive with other capitalists and for plundering the labour force more effectively. 2. Keep the technology as 'secret' to have edge with competitor.
When monopoly intensifies, the second aspect turns to be anti-human and limits the whole progress of human kind. It is at this point of time, FOSS as a spontaneous movement came into being to oppose this monopoly. Communists have foreseen this situation very early. That's why they argue that as a leading class, the capitalists are not at all revolutionary, but a decadent class.
Communists also want for decontrol and making available all the resources to everyone and 'unleash all the productive forces in the society'.
JDT wrote:
FOSS is the capitalism of plenty. Capitalism of shortages benefits a few - licence and permit raj Capitalism of plenty benefits everybody.
I don't see FOSS has any idea on political economy. It's not that kind of stuff. For your information, I will tell this also: communism is envisaged as a STATELESS society. So how there will be a license or permit raj?
One more thing: don't confuse the experiences of Socialist states in USSR or China with that of upcoming society of communism. With thanks and regards T Jayarajan
T Jayarajan wrote:
One more thing: don't confuse the experiences of Socialist states in USSR or China with that of upcoming society of communism. With thanks and regards T Jayarajan
Am a new member of this list.
Actually communism has deviated from its original goals. There isn't true marxism left anywhere in the world. Leftists support capitalism in WB and oppose it at the central level. China too has gone capitalist. I don't think this thread is of much use.
/me too desisted initially from replying back on this thread.
Warm Regards,
On Thursday 26 March 2009 17:12:34 T Jayarajan wrote:
Now I decided to respond as I see how poor is the understanding of communism among our list members. I insist only on 'good' understanding. It may be from any point of view. But 'no understanding' can not be excused. No research, no right to speak.
have you read 1. Das Kapital 2. The Manifesto of the Communist Party 3. The works of Lenin (important ones) 4. Important works of Mao 5. Engels on family state and private property
if you have not - then you have not done research.
On Thursday 26 Mar 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Thursday 26 March 2009 17:12:34 T Jayarajan wrote:
Now I decided to respond as I see how poor is the understanding of communism among our list members. I insist only on 'good' understanding. It may be from any point of view. But 'no understanding' can not be excused. No research, no right to speak.
have you read
- Das Kapital
- The Manifesto of the Communist Party
- The works of Lenin (important ones)
- Important works of Mao
- Engels on family state and private property
if you have not - then you have not done research.
Only decadent apartchiks read that. The purists read Vogue, PB and WSJ. Ofcourse poor workers read debian howtos.
On Thursday 26 Mar 2009, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
On Thursday 26 March 2009 17:12:34 T Jayarajan wrote:
Now I decided to respond as I see how poor is the understanding of communism among our list members. I insist only on 'good' understanding. It may be from any point of view. But 'no understanding' can not be excused. No research, no right to speak.
have you read
- Das Kapital
- The Manifesto of the Communist Party
- The works of Lenin (important ones)
- Important works of Mao
- Engels on family state and private property
if you have not - then you have not done research.
After reading the above and without neglecting your debian howtos, i recommend reading Alexander Solzhenitsyn "The Gulag Archipelago", "A day in the life of Ivan Denisovich", "Cancer Ward" and "First Circle"
Actually reading one is enough to send you into a permanent depression (if it wasnt for the deadly black humour).
India was a few milimeters from going the same way.
On Thursday 26 Mar 2009, T Jayarajan wrote:
Hi List,
I would like to see this list more as technically oriented than a place for political debate. So I abstained from responding to this thread, though I have been watching it with great interest.
Now I decided to respond as I see how poor is the understanding of communism among our list members. I insist only on 'good' understanding. It may be from any point of view. But 'no understanding' can not be excused. No research, no right to speak.
I agree with Debayan Banerjee's comment that:
Also, there are similarities between FOSS ideeology and communist ideology and thank god for that. And there are difference too, and thank God for that too :)
Because, communism's aim is abolishment of private property, basically, of the means of production. Technology is one of the means of production. FOSS wants to keep technology as public, which is actually the aim of communism.
Wrong. Foss does not aim to take somebody's work and make it public. Foss aims to let developers make their work available to the public while retaining full rights for the developer. And for the record the state is by no means the public.
In response to Banerjee's comment, On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 10:59 AM, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
Nothing can be further from reality than the above statement.
Communists intentionally control the flow of every available resource, thereby creating shortages. This thus prevents everyone from using their abilities in the best possible way and abrogates control to the man in the middle. Once this happens you destroy everything. In the initial phase, robbing tom to feed jerry works very well. But pretty soon all the Toms are dead and you start robbing Jerry.
This is absolutely wrong. Actually communism never been realized anywhere.
It's mangled form (under implementation) everywhere is monstrous to say the least.
It's a stage only in concept that comes after capitalism. And communism will happen only in abundance. Communism aims at unleashing of all productive forces, to end the alienation of individual with the productive system and to allow every individual to live up to his or her creativity power. There won't be any kind of compulsion by (productive) system on individuals, so to work is not at all burden, but a way for pleasure and joy. Marx sees such a person as one who in the morning will go for fishing, at noon for reading books and in the evening for writing poems.
Wow. Sounds like retirement.
JDT continues:
OTOH FOSS insists on decontrol, which makes available all resources to everyone. This automatically creates an economy of plenty. And allows - no encourages - everone to utilise resources to the best of their ability.
Communists' opposition to capitalism, particularly monopoly capitalism of today is on the account that it curtails the progress of human kind because it keeps science and technology as well as the means of production under the control of a few.
And how do they do that?
At technology front capitalists are playing two roles: 1. Constantly innovate technology through research and technology for being competitive with other capitalists and for plundering the labour force more effectively.
So dont innovate? or more precisely, innovate but as per the little red book?
- Keep the technology as 'secret' to have edge with competitor.
When monopoly intensifies, the second aspect turns to be anti-human and limits the whole progress of human kind. It is at this point of time, FOSS as a spontaneous movement came into being to oppose this monopoly.
If they innovate to fight other capitalist, then there isnt a monopoly right?.
Communists have foreseen this situation very early. That's why they argue that as a leading class, the capitalists are not at all revolutionary, but a decadent class.
Unfortunately the worst decadents are the ruling communist elite.
Communists also want for decontrol and making available all the resources to everyone and 'unleash all the productive forces in the society'.
JDT wrote:
FOSS is the capitalism of plenty. Capitalism of shortages benefits a few - licence and permit raj Capitalism of plenty benefits everybody.
I don't see FOSS has any idea on political economy. It's not that kind of stuff. For your information, I will tell this also: communism is envisaged as a STATELESS society. So how there will be a license or permit raj?
Ever been to china or USSR and tried to sell (or buy) something? The reality is utterly different form the fancy theory. Khana ke teeth aur dikahneki teeth are completely different.
One more thing: don't confuse the experiences of Socialist states in USSR or China with that of upcoming society of communism.
That is neat. So where is this utopia.
With thanks and regards T Jayarajan
Any way this is not the forum to vent our political spleen. So i wont be replying unless it is specific to foss.
Hi list,
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 6:46 PM, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
Any way this is not the forum to vent our political spleen. So i wont
be replying unless it is specific to foss.
-- Rgds JTD
I agree with this. I will limit to only FOSS.
JTD wrote:
Wrong. Foss does not aim to take somebody's work and make it public.
Foss aims to let developers make their work available to the public while retaining full rights for the developer. And for the record the state is by no means the public.
For communists also, state is only an apparatus for oppression. No difference, even when the communists are in power! But I can't figure our the difference in 'taking' or 'allowing' the software to be public. The aim is to make it 'public', so not much difference.
On 'retaining full rights for the developer': Think of a developer, who works for a proprietary software firm. Does he get any rights on the software he produces other than the wage? Marx has written much about this situation. He called it as 'alienation of product from the worker. Communism is for ending this alienation. So, what is the difference between FOSS and communism, on this aspect?
At technology front capitalists are playing two roles: 1. Constantly innovate technology through research and technology for being competitive with other capitalists and for plundering the labour force more effectively.
So dont innovate? or more precisely, innovate but as per the little red book?
Who said they shouldn't innovate? The innovate and so they rule the world. If they are innovating as per 'red' prescriptions, they will be given party cards, that's all.
- Keep the technology as 'secret' to have edge with competitor.
When monopoly intensifies, the second aspect turns to be anti-human and limits the whole progress of human kind. It is at this point of time, FOSS as a spontaneous movement came into being to oppose this monopoly.
If they innovate to fight other capitalist, then there isnt a monopoly right?.
Please remember the case against Microsoft in which American court ordered
bifurcation of the corporation.Monopoly is not allowed even by the capitalist principles of freedom of competition. But the capitalist practices lead to monopolization.
By the mathematical theory of probability also, monopoly is not possible. That's why, with elite concepts FOSS came into being.That's why I called FOSS spontaneous.
With regards, T Jayarajan
T Jayarajan wrote:
bifurcation of the corporation.Monopoly is not allowed even by the capitalist principles of freedom of competition. But the capitalist practices lead to monopolization.
May I add that you speak freely due to the freedom that a Democracy gifts to you. In your communist environment, you would be behind bars or in a worse situation for freely expressing your dissent. There ends the matter.
BTW, I have had a client who is no more but he was a Keralite and grew up in a communist environment. During the World War he was a student and he even went to Russia to fight alongside it and create the utopia you talk about. Finally after experiencing the reality, he came back worked hard and became a very successful businessman and created an empire that provides bread and butter to many.
On Thursday 26 Mar 2009, Rony wrote:
T Jayarajan wrote:
bifurcation of the corporation.Monopoly is not allowed even by the capitalist principles of freedom of competition. But the capitalist practices lead to monopolization.
May I add that you speak freely due to the freedom that a Democracy gifts to you. In your communist environment, you would be behind bars or in a worse situation for freely expressing your dissent. There ends the matter.
BTW, I have had a client who is no more but he was a Keralite and grew up in a communist environment. During the World War he was a student and he even went to Russia to fight alongside it and create the utopia you talk about. Finally after experiencing the reality, he came back worked hard and became a very successful businessman and created an empire that provides bread and butter to many.
+1. Been to USSR and China.
On Friday 27 March 2009 11:24:18 jtd wrote:
BTW, I have had a client who is no more but he was a Keralite and grew up in a communist environment. During the World War he was a student and he even went to Russia to fight alongside it and create the utopia you talk about. Finally after experiencing the reality, he came back worked hard and became a very successful businessman and created an empire that provides bread and butter to many.
+1. Been to USSR and China.
actually, FOSS is most compatible with vegetarianism. Neither FOSS nor vegetarians kill animals
On Thursday 26 Mar 2009, T Jayarajan wrote:
JTD wrote:
Wrong. Foss does not aim to take somebody's work and make it public.
Foss aims to let developers make their work available to the public while retaining full rights for the developer. And for the record the state is by no means the public.
For communists also, state is only an apparatus for oppression. No difference, even when the communists are in power! But I can't figure our the difference in 'taking' or 'allowing' the software to be public. The aim is to make it 'public', so not much difference.
Huge difference: taking = someone else picking up my stuff and handing over to Ratan Tata Giving = me selling to Ratan Tata
On 'retaining full rights for the developer': Think of a developer, who works for a proprietary software firm. Does he get any rights on the software he produces other than the wage?
Mostly no. But he choose to do so and hence it is his problem. A third party with holy intentions is not required to "fight" on his behalf.
Marx has written much about this situation. He called it as 'alienation of product from the worker. Communism is for ending this alienation. So, what is the difference between FOSS and communism, on this aspect?
Neat. And how do you propose to achieve this?. By banning prop software?
By the mathematical theory of probability also, monopoly is not possible. That's why, with elite concepts FOSS came into being.That's why I called FOSS spontaneous.
Foss came into being because Companies were preventing users from modifying and or reusing code. In the case of software and computers it is relatively easy to obfuscate the working mechanism because of the need for conversion of human readable code to machine readable code.
The "monopoly" and it's mad prescriptions and tactics came in much latter. It was about alienation of users from products, not about workers from products.
Further both workers and users have an option now.
The government has to mandate use of FOSS because 1) They are using PUBLIC MONEY and must use the least cost product. The cost must also include the costs incurred by the general public in using the government infrastructure. 2) Use of FOSS by government, does not preclude use of prop software by the public they. But use of prop software precludes use of FOSS software in very large number of cases 3) As KG points out, the "reinvention of wheel" costs must be factored in 4) Permanency of public data precludes storage of data in closed formats
On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.orgwrote:
On Saturday 21 March 2009 16:53:28 Debayan Banerjee wrote:
but are we talking of the same party which is in government in
states
like bengal and kerela where government projects are being done only on microsoft technologies, and is insisting on buying only microsoft
servers
?f
Forgive my ignorance, but dont the communist govts in Kerela and WB *support* FOSS a lot? I mean I am in Bengal and I see groups like IOTA putting in a lot of money for FOSS into institutes and LUGs. Also Kerela
is
famous for FOSS adoption on a government level right??
please give the url of *one* kerala government site where I can download all the wonderful 'foss' software they claim to have developed? Just using linux and php to develop proprietary software doesnt cut it.
I heard that kerala Govt is having their own linux based operating system developed by the support of SPACE, for IT@School project .
-- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate NRC-FOSS http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ -- http://mm.glug-bom.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
Debayan Banerjee wrote:
2009/3/21 scrapo scrapo@saswatabanerjee.com
but are we talking of the same party which is in government in states like bengal and kerela where government projects are being done only on microsoft technologies, and is insisting on buying only microsoft
servers
?f
Forgive my ignorance, but dont the communist govts in Kerela and WB *support* FOSS a lot? I mean I am in Bengal and I see groups like IOTA putting in a lot of money for FOSS into institutes and LUGs. Also Kerela is famous for FOSS adoption on a government level right??
I would like to know the ground reality since you are there (I visit bengal may be once in 6 months) What exactly has the government done for foss and where has it been adopted ? The entire local govt computerisation program in bengal i saw was windows centric
where has the govt put money in foss institutes and in what way are they financing lugs (I didnt realise you needed huge money for running a lug).
The only place i have actually seen govt using foss is Bihar.
regards saswata
2009/3/21 scrapo scrapo@saswatabanerjee.com
Debayan Banerjee wrote: I would like to know the ground reality since you are there (I visit bengal may be once in 6 months)
OK. I study at NIT Durgapur. I am a member of the NIT Durgapur LUG. IOTA stands for "Institute of Open Technologies and Applications" < http://www.iotawb.org/%3E. It has been setup by Govt. of West Bengal to promote usage of FOSS on all levels. To this end they spend a substantial amount of money in organising seminars and workshops in Bengal. IOTA has 3 chapters: 1) WBUT 2) Jadavpur University 3) NIT Durgapur
We are the newest one. LUGs dont need a lot of money, unless they work on a grand scale. By grand scale I mean penetrating through to the people far and wide. It means organsing workshops, fests, going to conferences in groups. More importantly IMO IOTA provides funds so we can develop solutions that can speed up the adoption. 2 such rocking projects are 1) Freedom Toaster 2) FOSS helpline
Both are under development. Also I attended a conference organised by IOTA in Kolkata and it was pretty good too. Was my first conference anyways. So if there is a political party that supports FOSS its the communists i believe. Maybe BJP is very tech savvy but I am not sure they give a damn about the philosophy. CPI here on the other hand believe in the philosophy IMO. Having heard the IT minster here DR. Debesh Das speak twice convinced me of this. He is concerned about west monopoly(standard communist ideology) and vendor lock. Also at the IOTA conference in Kolkata the focus was very much on the philosophy and so many elderly people were asking questions purely ont he philosophy aspect of FOSS which I found so interesting.
What exactly has the government done for foss and where has it been adopted ? The entire local govt computerisation program in bengal i saw was windows centric
The best person to talk about govt adoption of FOSS is Indranil Das Gupta from ilug-cal and I am sure most of you know him. Maybe they do end up using Windows for official purposes but what I heard last was that they do invite all parties (including Linux based solution vendors) + MS to bid for tenders such as these. If after those discussions they decide that MS provides better back-up services and maintenance i guess we gotta tell ourselves that Linux vendors need to get their act together. We dont even have a nation-wide helpline inspite of organisation nrc-foss existing. Nothing against them, just that we gotta turn our eyes inward. I mean if even Bengal is not adopting FOSS there has to be some problem with FOSS infrastructure IMO (plz dont hate me :-/)
The only place i have actually seen govt using foss is Bihar.
Yes, Sahana. We will have to wait for a huge flood to come here in Bengal to see if they use Sahana here too :)
regards saswata
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