Hello All,
At the recent speech by Mr. George G. of FSF Europe in HBCSE, he mentioned a very important point which I liked and want to pass on to those who did not attend. He explained.....
In today's world knowledge is getting more and more digitized. Due to this digitization, it is the major Corporates that are controlling access to this knowledge through software code. In a Democracy where information (knowledge) should flow freely and be accessible to all, this control of knowledge by the software giants is dangerous and unwanted. This is even more important for the Governments to ensure that third parties do not control their data.
Therefore its is absolutely necessary that Governments of Democratic Nations adopt free software and formats in order to safeguard their data and get it out of the clutches and control of the corporate entities.
On 6/8/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Therefore its is absolutely necessary that Governments of Democratic Nations adopt free software and formats in order to safeguard their data and get it out of the clutches and control of the corporate entities.
and pay close attention to SharePoint: no free format can help you from that web.
Regards, Mohan S N
On Friday 08 Jun 2007 21:32:03 Rony wrote:
Hello All,
At the recent speech by Mr. George G. of FSF Europe in HBCSE, he mentioned a very important point which I liked and want to pass on to those who did not attend. He explained.....
In today's world knowledge is getting more and more digitized. Due to this digitization, it is the major Corporates that are controlling access to this knowledge through software code. In a Democracy where information (knowledge) should flow freely and be accessible to all, this control of knowledge by the software giants is dangerous and unwanted. This is even more important for the Governments to ensure that third parties do not control their data.
Therefore its is absolutely necessary that Governments of Democratic Nations adopt free software and formats in order to safeguard their data and get it out of the clutches and control of the corporate entities.
Laughable. This is all assuming that the society is in a fine state; as if the people behave properly and that the democracy actually works.
This is all nice and dandy in Europe or USA. Indians still need to grow up mentally for this to be applicable.
On Saturday 09 June 2007 07:56, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
On Friday 08 Jun 2007 21:32:03 Rony wrote:
Therefore its is absolutely necessary that Governments of Democratic Nations adopt free software and formats in order to safeguard their data and get it out of the clutches and control of the corporate entities.
Laughable. This is all assuming that the society is in a fine state; as if the people behave properly and that the democracy actually works.
Ya. What we require is Papa Doc and Baby Doc Duvalier with Mushy as Army Chief and PolPot as education minister to get us into a tony state, all regimented and lined up waving dainty flags at sundry idiots passing by. Oh what wondeful days they were. Look at us now. every citizen who cant spell vote line up the streets and protests.
This is all nice and dandy in Europe or USA. Indians still need to grow up mentally for this to be applicable.
That is why we need PolPot who had great ideas on making people growup real fast. Pity everbody thought he was a raving lunatic. And considering the polticos in the EU and US PolPot might be the perfect prescription for the growth challenged even in these hallowed regions.
hi roni, you raised a very important point. and if people keep on saying "this won't happen in india " it will actually never happen. I rather firmly believe that the people who say such things are the real culprits themselves with a few exceptions who might not have time or confidence or both to share their knowledge. but I think instead of saying such things we must look at how this can be achieved. it is happening already in kerala that the government is using open standards and education is also going on the grounds for free softwre. so it is not that such things can't happen. it is how many are ready to make an honest eford and how much time can one give. regards, Krishnakant.
Laughable. This is all assuming that the society is in a fine state; as if the people behave properly and that the democracy actually works.
This is all nice and dandy in Europe or USA. Indians still need to grow up mentally for this to be applicable.
Interestingly George also quoted Winston Churchill :
``Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."
Regards,
- vihan
On 6/9/07, Vihan Pandey vihanpandey@gmail.com wrote:
Interestingly George also quoted Winston Churchill :
``Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."
Wasn't it more like "Democracy is a really bad form of government but the best that we know of."
--- mehul wrote:
``Democracy is the worst form of government except
for all those
others that have been tried."
Wasn't it more like "Democracy is a really bad form of government but the best that we know of."
I too, think, the later is what he said.
-- FSF of India Associate Fellow - http://www.gnu.org.in S K Somaiya College of ASC- http://www.somaiya.edu/sksasc ubunturos @ freenode
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Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
On Friday 08 Jun 2007 21:32:03 Rony wrote:
Therefore its is absolutely necessary that Governments of Democratic Nations adopt free software and formats in order to safeguard their data and get it out of the clutches and control of the corporate entities.
Laughable. This is all assuming that the society is in a fine state; as if the people behave properly and that the democracy actually works.
Why do you find the concept of freedom laughable?
This is all nice and dandy in Europe or USA. Indians still need to grow up mentally for this to be applicable.
So? Till then we shoot down the idea of freedom, free software. Amazing!
On Saturday 09 Jun 2007 19:10:55 Rony wrote:
Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
On Friday 08 Jun 2007 21:32:03 Rony wrote:
Therefore its is absolutely necessary that Governments of Democratic Nations adopt free software and formats in order to safeguard their data and get it out of the clutches and control of the corporate entities.
Laughable. This is all assuming that the society is in a fine state; as if the people behave properly and that the democracy actually works.
Why do you find the concept of freedom laughable?
This is all nice and dandy in Europe or USA. Indians still need to grow up mentally for this to be applicable.
So? Till then we shoot down the idea of freedom, free software. Amazing!
Yes. Because people here don't deserve freedom. They should be made to earn their freedom.
And hello? Get out of your little `I'm free because I use free software' shell. You are not free. Your democracy doesn't exist here. You're slaves.
Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
On Saturday 09 Jun 2007 19:10:55 Rony wrote:
Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
On Friday 08 Jun 2007 21:32:03 Rony wrote:
Therefore its is absolutely necessary that Governments of Democratic Nations adopt free software and formats in order to safeguard their data and get it out of the clutches and control of the corporate entities.
Laughable. This is all assuming that the society is in a fine state; as if the people behave properly and that the democracy actually works.
Why do you find the concept of freedom laughable?
This is all nice and dandy in Europe or USA. Indians still need to grow up mentally for this to be applicable.
So? Till then we shoot down the idea of freedom, free software. Amazing!
Yes. Because people here don't deserve freedom. They should be made to earn their freedom.
This is a diversion. That was not the topic of discussion. The discussion was about why control of knowledge, especially for Governments, in Democracies, should not lie in the hands of a few corporate entities.
And hello? Get out of your little `I'm free because I use free software' shell. You are not free. Your democracy doesn't exist here. You're slaves.
Democracy anywhere is a reflection of peoples' attitudes and mentality. It is always evolving. What makes a democracy tick is the free flow of information to the people. Information empowers people.
On Sun, 2007-06-10 at 09:57 +0530, Mrugesh Karnik wrote:
Yes. Because people here don't deserve freedom. They should be made to earn their freedom.
Yes. Agreed.
And hello? Get out of your little `I'm free because I use free software' shell. You are not free. Your democracy doesn't exist here. You're slaves.
Why do you say that? Please elaborate. Our democracy is alive and kicking.
On 6/10/07, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
Why do you say that? Please elaborate. Our democracy is alive and kicking.
Ask those cyber-cafe owners who's cafes were destroyed because they were showing orkut. Or the recent case of all blog sites being blocked because the government ordered them. Or Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute being vandalized since they shared manuscripts and historical documents for the book "Shivaji: Hindu King in Islamic India".
There are few in this country who use their freedom. Most of those who do, use it to curtail other people's freedoms (censorship on internet, TV, books, etc.).
Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
On 6/10/07, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
Why do you say that? Please elaborate. Our democracy is alive and kicking.
Ask those cyber-cafe owners who's cafes were destroyed because they were showing orkut. Or the recent case of all blog sites being blocked because the government ordered them. Or Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute being vandalized since they shared manuscripts and historical documents for the book "Shivaji: Hindu King in Islamic India".
Doesn't this show that some people don't want the public to be empowered with knowledge?
On 6/11/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Doesn't this show that some people don't want the public to be empowered with knowledge?
Yes, but there are prerequisites to it. We first need a rational society. That is difficult, in fact bordering on impossible in India because of the size of the population. With such a large population, herd mentality rules rather than rational thought.
Software and knowledge freedom will make a big difference, but do not expect it to change the way our country is. Again, it will affect only a reasonably small section of our population (given the very size of our population, that's quite a feat). For smaller democracies, FOSS has potential to leave a bigger impact.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Siddhesh Poyarekar" siddhesh.poyarekar@gmail.com To: "GNU/Linux Users Group, Mumbai, India" linuxers@mm.glug-bom.org Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 7:50 AM Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] Importance of Free Software in Democracies.
On 6/11/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Doesn't this show that some people don't want the public to be empowered with knowledge?
Yes, but there are prerequisites to it. We first need a rational society. That is difficult, in fact bordering on impossible in India because of the size of the population. With such a large population, herd mentality rules rather than rational thought.
Software and knowledge freedom will make a big difference, but do not expect it to change the way our country is. Again, it will affect only a reasonably small section of our population (given the very size of our population, that's quite a feat). For smaller democracies, FOSS has potential to leave a bigger impact.
-- Siddhesh Poyarekar This document validates as Plain Text
Well Said! There does not exist a rational society in India.
Vinod Chand
--- Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
size of the population. With such a large population, herd mentality rules rather than rational thought.
I don't know what mentality would rule. But, yes, population has affected almost everything in India. The size of the country is 3 times smaller than USA but the size of the population more than 3 times that of USA.
For smaller democracies, FOSS has potential to leave a bigger impact.
RMS once said "India is seeing Free Software as an alternative because the can build infrastructure with compartively less costs." I guess, most of us are looking at this perspective.
-- FSF of India Associate Fellow - http://www.gnu.org.in S K Somaiya College of ASC- http://www.somaiya.edu/sksasc ubunturos @ freenode
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On Tuesday 12 June 2007 19:33, Roshan wrote:
--- Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
size of the population. With such a large population, herd mentality rules rather than rational thought.
I don't know what mentality would rule.
Herd mentality? nope. Mass communications? marketing? rabble rousing politics? take your pick. In india it might be free rice (or booze). In the us tax sops, chase out illegal immigrants or holy war on terror. In the uk all set to drown in a few decades it's reduce emissions. No need to get despondent just believe in the source and work hard at converting the non believers.
On 6/12/07, Roshan d_rosh2001@yahoo.co.in wrote:
RMS once said "India is seeing Free Software as an alternative because the can build infrastructure with compartively less costs." I guess, most of us are looking at this perspective.
Only third grade stuff is free (muft). If you want quality you have to pay the price for it. RMS probably didn't get this aspect of India's mentality when he said that. I wouldn't say he's wrong though. Linux based firewalls, proxies, mail servers and web servers are quite popular because of their cost. But if they can afford it, people will love to upgrade to the "premium" proprietary services.
Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
On 6/11/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Doesn't this show that some people don't want the public to be empowered with knowledge?
Yes, but there are prerequisites to it. We first need a rational society. That is difficult, in fact bordering on impossible in India because of the size of the population. With such a large population, herd mentality rules rather than rational thought.
We are in the second phase of our democracy and it coincides with the information boom that has spread all over the world. This is a major cause of heartburn for many politicians in India and abroad. Although we have not seen any punishment, at least we are seeing more politicians being exposed for their corruption and scams. People and the media are now asking questions. This has also given rise to new experiments in governance to grab unquestionable and absolute power through time tested fascism. By the grace of god, we have fairly free elections and we have the power to replace Governments. Therefore it is not only important to vote but vote effectively. With or without your vote, the bad elements will come to power through their confirmed group of voters. However you can make a difference by adding every vote for the lesser evil alternative.
Software and knowledge freedom will make a big difference, but do not expect it to change the way our country is. Again, it will affect only a reasonably small section of our population (given the very size of our population, that's quite a feat). For smaller democracies, FOSS has potential to leave a bigger impact.
The topic of discussion was about control of knowledge in the hands of some corporate entities.
On 6/12/07, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
our population, that's quite a feat). For smaller democracies, FOSS has potential to leave a bigger impact.
The topic of discussion was about control of knowledge in the hands of some corporate entities.
The subject line says otherwise. Either ways, for now we don't have to worry much about knowledge in the hands of our Indian corporates -- they talk of knowledge, information and innovation to attract clients. Also, our IT culture looks up to Bill Gates et al, because of which it is considered stupidity to simply "share" information for free. Hence, it's not just about corporate culture for us, it's much deeper.
Hi,
--- Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
The topic of discussion was about control of knowledge in the hands of some corporate entities.
"Corporate" entities is probably just a public name, I suppose.
It would be good to know who is supporting/behind such entities.
SK
-- Shakthi Kannan http://www.shakthimaan.com
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On 6/11/07, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
Ask those cyber-cafe owners who's cafes were destroyed because they were showing orkut. Or the recent case of all blog sites being blocked because the government ordered them. Or Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute being vandalized since they shared manuscripts and historical documents for the book "Shivaji: Hindu King in Islamic India".
There are few in this country who use their freedom. Most of those who do, use it to curtail other people's freedoms (censorship on internet, TV, books, etc.).
I fail to understand how these instances show that democracy is not alive? It is because democracy and freedom is alive that such people were allowed to do the things that they did. I see it more as a failure for the law being enforced than democracy being dead in our country.
Take instances such as change of government ( Cong -> BJP -> Cong again ). The change of government in Kashmir in the recent times.
It is because we have democracy and it is working that the governments change. People are allowed to voice their concerns.
Yes, I'm dead against censorship but nobodys stopping you from filing a PIL in court, right? :)
On 6/12/07, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
I fail to understand how these instances show that democracy is not alive? It is because democracy and freedom is alive that such people were allowed to do the things that they did. I see it more as a failure for the law being enforced than democracy being dead in our country.
Democracy is alive. It is just that it's terribly sick.
Take instances such as change of government ( Cong -> BJP -> Cong again ). The change of government in Kashmir in the recent times.
It is because we have democracy and it is working that the governments change. People are allowed to voice their concerns.
Governments do not change because of our votes. The educated and sensible are too less to make an impact with their informed votes. Governments change because of their pre-poll tactics. Election campaigns decide which party rules.
Yes, I'm dead against censorship but nobodys stopping you from filing a PIL in court, right? :)
No. Go ahead, file a PIL against the Shivaji book's censorship. Wait for the information of your PIL to go to the newspapers and then run from the Sena.
On Fri, 2007-06-08 at 21:32 +0530, Rony wrote:
In today's world knowledge is getting more and more digitized. Due to this digitization, it is the major Corporates that are controlling access to this knowledge through software code. In a Democracy where information (knowledge) should flow freely and be accessible to all, this control of knowledge by the software giants is dangerous and unwanted. This is even more important for the Governments to ensure that third parties do not control their data.
Maybe a little off topic. But FSF's philosophy ( in particular, the freedom to learn ) is nothing new. Our very own Dr.Homi Bhabha believed that knowledge should be free. Since at that time nuclear energy was thought to be the one source of energy that would end the "energy crisis", he was pretty pissed with the USA for not helping India develop nuclear energy for peaceful purposes. This, according to him, was "restriction of knowledge".
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Rony wrote:
In today's world knowledge is getting more and more digitized. Due to this digitization, it is the major Corporates that are controlling access to this knowledge through software code.
Well that's been happening for a large number of years now. Globally look at how many companies control access to music/video/movies I suspect once you traverse the mesh of companies and cross-holdings it is closer to 4 or even fewer. Same happens for media including advertising. I think in effect there are only 2 top level advertising companies in India with myriad crossholding and subsidiaries leading to an illusion of diversity. Globalisation is sure fun...
- --
You see things; and you say 'Why?'; But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?' - George Bernard Shaw
Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote:
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Rony wrote:
In today's world knowledge is getting more and more digitized. Due to this digitization, it is the major Corporates that are controlling access to this knowledge through software code.
Well that's been happening for a large number of years now. Globally look at how many companies control access to music/video/movies I suspect once you traverse the mesh of companies and cross-holdings it is closer to 4 or even fewer. Same happens for media including advertising. I think in effect there are only 2 top level advertising companies in India with myriad crossholding and subsidiaries leading to an illusion of diversity. Globalisation is sure fun...
So do you agree or disagree that Governments in Democracies must adopt free software? BTW its not an OT.
Quoting Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk:
Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote:
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Rony wrote:
In today's world knowledge is getting more and more digitized. Due to this digitization, it is the major Corporates that are controlling access to this knowledge through software code.
Well that's been happening for a large number of years now. Globally look at how many companies control access to music/video/movies I suspect once you traverse the mesh of companies and cross-holdings it is closer to 4 or even fewer. Same happens for media including advertising. I think in effect there are only 2 top level advertising companies in India with myriad crossholding and subsidiaries leading to an illusion of diversity. Globalisation is sure fun...
So do you agree or disagree that Governments in Democracies must adopt free software? BTW its not an OT.
you mean that governments in kingdoms, dictatorships etc should not adopt free software?
lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
Quoting Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk:
So do you agree or disagree that Governments in Democracies must adopt free software? BTW its not an OT.
you mean that governments in kingdoms, dictatorships etc should not adopt free software?
:-D
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