The subject line indicates something, that might have been discussed in the past, over several forums/mailing lists/boards etc. But, I intend to initiate this thread after reading an article in Business Today,which concludes Open Office, is ready for acceptance among many and Mozilla Firefox, seems to replace Internet Explorer for a few Windows users. It also speaks about GNU/Linux and below is the excerpt
It states "Why has Linux never taken off? Simple; it's terribly easy to set up if you have a BSc or BTech degree ...."
Also "there is no _one_ Linux anymore" (You have Windows XP)
"...15 major releases (distros) and many of them don't work with each other.."
So does this mean it GNU/Linux is only for Geeks?
What exactly stops a Windows User to migrate to any GNU/Linux?
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On 8/4/06, Roshan d_rosh2001@yahoo.co.in wrote:
So does this mean it GNU/Linux is only for Geeks?
What exactly stops a Windows User to migrate to any GNU/Linux?
A combination of familiarity to Windows, laziness and some applications which run only on Windows.
-- Vinayak
So does this mean it GNU/Linux is only for Geeks?
What exactly stops a Windows User to migrate to any GNU/Linux?
A combination of familiarity to Windows, laziness and some applications which run only on Windows.
Its mainly the applications .. i dont think the os is of importance to people as long as they can get their work done and find help when needed.
On 8/4/06, Vinayak Hegde vinayakh@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/4/06, Roshan d_rosh2001@yahoo.co.in wrote:
So does this mean it GNU/Linux is only for Geeks?
What exactly stops a Windows User to migrate to any GNU/Linux?
A combination of familiarity to Windows, laziness and some applications which run only on Windows.
-- Vinayak
Excellent.
Laziness is main point. I was talking with my coworker today. He need to do Remote Desktop on another machine from Linux terminal. Now, he was aking me is there any Graphical way to it rather than typing
rdesktop -f i.p.a.d.d.r.e.s.s ?
:-)
On 8/4/06, Kartik Mistry kartik.mistry@gmail.com wrote:
Excellent.
Laziness is main point. I was talking with my coworker today. He need
Laziness is a valid point if you're talking of reluctance among some techies to learn to use GNU/Linux or any *nix for that matter. For normal users its simply beyond reach as none of our Indian portals/companies/ISP/ net based services talk about GNU/Linux.
If there's one thing that could increase GNU/Linux adoption among the masses in India, it would be stronger anti-piracy laws. Once it becomes completely infeasible/impossible to pirate Windows, people (computer assemblers) will automatically start installing windows on the low cost machines.
Then again, some others will pay the extra thinking that they're getting more "quality".
Regards, Siddhesh
On 04-Aug-06, at 9:31 PM, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
If there's one thing that could increase GNU/Linux adoption among the masses in India, it would be stronger anti-piracy laws. Once it becomes completely infeasible/impossible to pirate Windows, people (computer assemblers) will automatically start installing windows on the low cost machines.
so we petition uncle bill on this?
On 8/4/06, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
so we petition uncle bill on this?
Or would it be Manmohan Singh uncle (or his remote control, Sonia Aunty)?
And speaking of petitions, do they really work at all?
Regards, Siddhesh
On 04-Aug-06, at 10:15 PM, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
On 8/4/06, Kenneth Gonsalves lawgon@au-kbc.org wrote:
so we petition uncle bill on this?
Or would it be Manmohan Singh uncle (or his remote control, Sonia Aunty)?
And speaking of petitions, do they really work at all?
fact is that microsoft encourages piracy as part of its war against foss - so asking it to cooperate is ... i dont want to be rude ;-)
On Fri, Aug 04, 2006 at 09:31:04PM +0530, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
Then again, some others will pay the extra thinking that they're getting more "quality".
No, not quality but compatibility. What will they do with a free OS that will not be 100% compatible to their needs?
Regards,
Rony.
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On 8/4/06, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
No, not quality but compatibility. What will they do with a free OS that will not be 100% compatible to their needs?
I haven't really noticed too many hardware issues with most Linux distros of late. So compatibility in that case is only in some remote cases (ATI for e.g. as jtd mentioned).
If you're talking about compatibility in terms of "willingness to change" then that's a completely different ballgame. A person used to windows will give spending the extra 5000-10000 INR a thought atleast. For a completely new user, the numbers ought to go up a bit in favour of GNU/Linux. But then, which distro becomes another question. Fedora (and now Ubuntu) seem to have a bit of an advantage here.
One thing's for sure, for a home user eyecandy counts for quite a bit. And if you put a brand new fast computer with KDE on it, it will kick Windows' a$$ any day.
For the kids, games will be a big point of contention too.
Regards, Siddhesh
No, not quality but compatibility. What will they do with a free OS that will not be 100% compatible to their needs?
I agree with that. I guess as long as they can get their work done (i.e. be productive ) they wont know the difference between windows and linux. This one point which even Mark Shuttleworth brought up when he'd adressed the lub in IIT. So what is stopping adoption is either the fact that alternative applications are not available or people are or aware that they are available.
On Friday 04 August 2006 21:31, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
If there's one thing that could increase GNU/Linux adoption among the masses in India, it would be stronger anti-piracy laws. Once it becomes completely infeasible/impossible to pirate Windows, people (computer assemblers) will automatically start installing windows on the low cost machines.
I assume you mean to say GNU/Linux instead of Windows... That sentence should sound:
Once it becomes completely infeasible/impossible to pirate Windows, people (computer assemblers) will automatically start installing Linux on the low cost machines.
On 8/5/06, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
I assume you mean to say GNU/Linux instead of Windows... That sentence should sound:
Once it becomes completely infeasible/impossible to pirate Windows, people (computer assemblers) will automatically start installing Linux on the low cost machines.
Oops ;-)
Siddhesh
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Kartik Mistry wrote:
Laziness is main point. I was talking with my coworker today. He need to do Remote Desktop on another machine from Linux terminal. Now, he was aking me is there any Graphical way to it rather than typing
rdesktop -f i.p.a.d.d.r.e.s.s ?
So how did you go about resolving his query ?
- --
You see things; and you say 'Why?'; But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?' - George Bernard Shaw
On 8/5/06, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay sankarshan.mukhopadhyay@gmail.com wrote:
Kartik Mistry wrote:
Laziness is main point. I was talking with my coworker today. He need to do Remote Desktop on another machine from Linux terminal. Now, he was aking me is there any Graphical way to it rather than typing
rdesktop -f i.p.a.d.d.r.e.s.s ?
So how did you go about resolving his query ?
He is Uber Windows User and Developer!
On 05-Aug-06, at 1:18 PM, Kartik Mistry wrote:
So how did you go about resolving his query ?
He is Uber Windows User and Developer!
then he cant be lazy - only ubergeeks can afford to be lazy
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Kartik Mistry wrote:
On 8/5/06, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay sankarshan.mukhopadhyay@gmail.com wrote:
Kartik Mistry wrote:
Laziness is main point. I was talking with my coworker today. He need to do Remote Desktop on another machine from Linux terminal. Now, he was aking me is there any Graphical way to it rather than typing
rdesktop -f i.p.a.d.d.r.e.s.s ?
So how did you go about resolving his query ?
He is Uber Windows User and Developer!
Hmm... and yet you took him as an example :)
:SM
- --
You see things; and you say 'Why?'; But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?' - George Bernard Shaw
On Friday 04 August 2006 20:59, Kartik Mistry wrote:
Laziness is main point. I was talking with my coworker today. He need to do Remote Desktop on another machine from Linux terminal. Now, he was aking me is there any Graphical way to it rather than typing
rdesktop -f i.p.a.d.d.r.e.s.s ?
Its rather boring and infact slower to do it the GUI way :/ There are several UIs for it including a UI specifically for rdesktop and one built right into KDE :P
On 05-Aug-06, at 2:51 PM, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
Laziness is main point. I was talking with my coworker today. He need to do Remote Desktop on another machine from Linux terminal. Now, he was aking me is there any Graphical way to it rather than typing
rdesktop -f i.p.a.d.d.r.e.s.s ?
Its rather boring and infact slower to do it the GUI way :/ There are several UIs for it including a UI specifically for rdesktop and one built right into KDE :P
so it looks like the laziness was on our side in not pointing out that the Graphical way was available. Linux is great - as long as geeks leave it alone. Especially for the chosen few who use it as their first OS, they lap it up
On Fri, Aug 04, 2006 at 03:16:30PM +0100, Roshan wrote:
It states "Why has Linux never taken off? Simple; it's terribly easy to set up if you have a BSc or BTech degree ...."
At the server level linux has already taken off but for SOHO desktops it is only meant for do-it-yourself individuals. Linux lacks consistencey of installation and post installation procedures across different distros with different hardware.
Linux will take off in a big way if the big distro manufacturers like RedHat ( Fedora ) and Novel ( Open SuSe ) provide self installing driver packages for their distros based on the latest available motherboards. So instead of becoming a google zombie for every new mobo that comes into the market, the engineer spends more time installing linux on more and more systems.
Regards,
Rony.
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On Friday 04 August 2006 09:20 pm, Rony wrote:
On Fri, Aug 04, 2006 at 03:16:30PM +0100, Roshan wrote:
It states "Why has Linux never taken off? Simple; it's terribly easy to set up if you have a BSc or BTech degree ...."
At the server level linux has already taken off but for SOHO desktops it is only meant for do-it-yourself individuals. Linux lacks consistencey of installation and post installation procedures across different distros with different hardware.
that's like installing XP, win31, 2003 whatever. Nothing consistent other than reboot now or never
Linux will take off in a big way if the big distro manufacturers like RedHat ( Fedora ) and Novel ( Open SuSe ) provide self installing driver packages for their distros based on the latest available motherboards.
In every case where the specs were available without stupid NDAs gnu/linux is miles ahead of the properitory distros.
So instead of becoming a google zombie for every new mobo that comes into the market,
Check the hardware specs with a fine glass. I just made themistake of buying an Intel board with ATI graphics and paying the price. X does work but using VESA instead of ATI - not a major problem in my case - meaning i paid for hardware that will never be used to a fractionth of it's capability AND is likely to get me in a soup in the future.
And apart from the above it just does not make commercial sense to support individual desktops for large companies. It is far more lucrative to pursue niche markets which have far greater growth potential than a saturated desktop market strewn with M$ idiocities. The recent thread on gateways is a case in point - jump outa the window to reach the road.
On Friday 04 August 2006 21:20, Rony wrote:
At the server level linux has already taken off but for SOHO desktops it is only meant for do-it-yourself individuals. Linux lacks consistencey of installation and post installation procedures across different distros with different hardware.
Linux will take off in a big way if the big distro manufacturers like RedHat ( Fedora ) and Novel ( Open SuSe ) provide self installing driver packages for their distros based on the latest available motherboards. So instead of becoming a google zombie for every new mobo that comes into the market, the engineer spends more time installing linux on more and more systems.
huh? i usually use yum to install stuff. for drivers i download the RPMs and install them if they're not provided by yum. Rest other times its generally: ./configure && make && make install for me :). Also, there was something called as sourceinstall. A nice project. Dont knnow what became of it.
On Sat, Aug 05, 2006 at 12:22:53AM +0530, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
huh? i usually use yum to install stuff. for drivers i download the RPMs and install them if they're not provided by yum. Rest other times its generally: ./configure && make && make install for me :). Also, there was something called as sourceinstall. A nice project. Dont knnow what became of it.
There is no time for all this in tight production schedules. Internet is not always available and at high speeds. What would be more penetrative is that Suse or Fedora or all such ones in India set up labs for testing and provide a set of drivers for every new hardware ( mobos and others) that comes into the market. They need not give it free. A small charge of Rs. 500/- for the distro and the driver set per mobo can be very attractive compared to Rs. 3700/- for XP home. The driver installation should be an automated script that simply needs to be double clicked.
Linux need not be as complex as its meant to be. Its just an OS.
Regards,
Rony.
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On 8/5/06, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
be more penetrative is that Suse or Fedora or all such ones in India set up labs for testing and provide a set of drivers for every new hardware ( mobos and others) that comes into the market. They need not give it free. A small charge of Rs. 500/- for the distro and the driver set per mobo can be very attractive compared to Rs. 3700/- for XP home. The driver installation should be an automated script that simply needs to be double clicked.
I always thought that as time has gone by, driver support for GNU/Linux (barring a few troublesome manufacturers like ATI, Lexmark, etc.) has been fairly good. What kind of drivers are you talking about that should be sold on CDs?
If you're talking about driver CDs like you have for motherboards, mice, etc then that's the manufacturer's headache. Generally every distro that is released has up-to-date drivers for the latest hardware (provided they're stable). What more are you looking for?
Siddhesh
On Sat, Aug 05, 2006 at 09:22:34PM +0530, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
If you're talking about driver CDs like you have for motherboards, mice, etc then that's the manufacturer's headache. Generally every distro that is released has up-to-date drivers for the latest hardware (provided they're stable). What more are you looking for?
Just curious to know, how many new systems have you installed with linux distros that had all drivers uptodate and the system had all its hardware working with full performance in linux?
Regards,
Rony.
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On 8/5/06, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Just curious to know, how many new systems have you installed with linux distros that had all drivers uptodate and the system had all its hardware working with full performance in linux?
A few at friends' places over the span of a year or so. And I've seen the situation improving over the years. I was able to do a full Debian desktop install on my new computer (AMD64+Gigabyte mobo) back in March without tinkering with configuration files even once. Ofcourse, I went for 32 bit instead of the amd64 arch CD since I wanted the system up within a couple of hours.
But then I am open to the idea that I may have been lucky to get a certain set of h/w that didn't sweat me much. Either ways, the absense of support for certain hardware support is partly (largely?) the manufacturer's fault as well. Distros generally release all the hardware drivers they support.
Siddhesh
On Saturday 05 August 2006 10:06 pm, Rony wrote:
On Sat, Aug 05, 2006 at 09:22:34PM +0530, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
If you're talking about driver CDs like you have for motherboards, mice, etc then that's the manufacturer's headache. Generally every distro that is released has up-to-date drivers for the latest hardware (provided they're stable). What more are you looking for?
stable ??? read my other post.
Just curious to know, how many new systems have you installed with linux distros that had all drivers uptodate and the system had all
several thousand - which meant large inventory and high risk. So yes u are going to have a problem if u buy mobos locally without checking and play the desktop marketing game.
On 05/08/06 20:41 +0530, Rony wrote:
On Sat, Aug 05, 2006 at 12:22:53AM +0530, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
huh? i usually use yum to install stuff. for drivers i download the RPMs and install them if they're not provided by yum. Rest other times its generally: ./configure && make && make install for me :). Also, there was something called as sourceinstall. A nice project. Dont knnow what became of it.
There is no time for all this in tight production schedules.
What's a tight production schedule? You build your packages once. Then you build systems with kickstart/fai, and deploy additional packages automagically with cfengine, puppet or bcfg2. Unattended installations work just fine.
Internet is not always available and at high speeds. What would be more penetrative is that Suse or Fedora or all such ones in India set up labs for testing and provide a set of drivers for every new hardware ( mobos and others) that comes into the market. They need not
As soon as the hardware manufacturers provide the specifications. On the other hand, you could be like me and buy supported hardware only. Keep asking for Linux support and you might even find that filtering up to the manufacturer.
give it free. A small charge of Rs. 500/- for the distro and the driver set per mobo can be very attractive compared to Rs. 3700/- for XP home.
Off the top of my head, you would need a team of 8 - 10 people (people do go on vacations, and you do have to provide support) to do this successfully. Even if you setup the lab in India, that comes to an expense of ~ 5 to 10 lakhs/mth. To merely recover this money, you are looking at 1000 to 2000 sales/mth. If specifications are not provided, you can basically double or treble your staff strength just for the reverse engineering issues.
Here's an option: Why don't you setup and run that as a business? After all, you have the freedom to do that.
Devdas Bhagat PS: Corporate Linux vendors have hardware profiles they support. They don't support everything under the sun. Non corporate distros are run by volunteers, and they will work on stuff which interests them. Making them interested in what you want is upto you.
Devdas Bhagat
On Sat, Aug 05, 2006 at 09:56:21PM +0530, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
What's a tight production schedule? You build your packages once. Then you build systems with kickstart/fai, and deploy additional packages automagically with cfengine, puppet or bcfg2. Unattended installations work just fine.
Hardware is not the same for long. No one right now has the time to set a system aside and experiment with it. Thats what's expected from the big labs so that no time is spent on experimenting by the production guys.
As soon as the hardware manufacturers provide the specifications. On the other hand, you could be like me and buy supported hardware only. Keep asking for Linux support and you might even find that filtering up to the manufacturer.
SOHO segment. Hardware is decided by its popularity and its after sales support.
give it free. A small charge of Rs. 500/- for the distro and the driver set per mobo can be very attractive compared to Rs. 3700/- for XP home.
Off the top of my head, you would need a team of 8 - 10 people (people do go on vacations, and you do have to provide support) to do this successfully. Even if you setup the lab in India, that comes to an expense of ~ 5 to 10 lakhs/mth. To merely recover this money, you are looking at 1000 to 2000 sales/mth. If specifications are not provided, you can basically double or treble your staff strength just for the reverse engineering issues.
The big distro companies should be having such labs for better distro sales. Reverse engg. is not the issue, its the gathering of scattered drivers from the net and packaging them into an automated package. I mentioned Rs. 500 in lieu of giving it free.
Here's an option: Why don't you setup and run that as a business? After all, you have the freedom to do that.
I don't have a distro making company.
PS: Corporate Linux vendors have hardware profiles they support. They don't support everything under the sun.
Again SOHO market. Very vast and varying needs.
Non corporate distros are run by volunteers, and they will work on stuff which interests them. Making them interested in what you want is upto you.
That will have to change for better linux penetration otherwise windows wins. The SOHO market is not something that can be ignored.
Regards,
Rony.
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On Saturday 05 August 2006 10:29 pm, Rony wrote:
On Sat, Aug 05, 2006 at 09:56:21PM +0530, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
What's a tight production schedule? You build your packages once. Then you build systems with kickstart/fai, and deploy additional packages automagically with cfengine, puppet or bcfg2. Unattended installations work just fine.
Hardware is not the same for long.
Vendors are so shit scared of the big bully that they will blame problems on anything but the beast of redmond. This gem is form MSI for 64bit AMD mobo. http://www.msi.com.tw/program/products/mainboard/mbd/pro_mbd_detail.php?UID=... NOTE: Because of the limitations of chipset, this MB does not support 98/ME
On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 02:42:07PM +0530, jtd wrote:
On Saturday 05 August 2006 10:29 pm, Rony wrote:
Hardware is not the same for long.
Vendors are so shit scared of the big bully that they will blame problems on anything but the beast of redmond.
The statement meant that new h/w keeps coming up every few weeks or months and by the time one gets the time to experiment and finalise the drivers, a new h/w upgrade is out.
The experimenting should be done by the big Linux distro makers and provide a set of OS and driver CDs for a reasonable price.
Alternatively, the distro makers could have a section on their website called "Build your own PC" where they provide full processor+mobo+peripherial combinations that can be purchased from the local market and atleast these hardwares should be fully detected by the distro itself without extra driver support or provide the updated drivers on their own website as a package.
Regards,
Rony.
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On 07/08/06 20:18 +0530, Rony wrote: <snip>
Alternatively, the distro makers could have a section on their website called "Build your own PC" where they provide full
They call it the hardware compatibility list. Fedora doesn't provide a HCL, but they do link to projects which support hardware on their wiki.
Devdas Bhagat
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Devdas Bhagat wrote:
They call it the hardware compatibility list. Fedora doesn't provide a HCL, but they do link to projects which support hardware on their wiki.
Ahh well...another of these things that Fedora looks to complete fast enough :)
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On Monday 07 August 2006 08:18 pm, Rony wrote:
On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 02:42:07PM +0530, jtd wrote:
On Saturday 05 August 2006 10:29 pm, Rony wrote:
Hardware is not the same for long.
Vendors are so shit scared of the big bully that they will blame problems on anything but the beast of redmond.
The statement meant that new h/w keeps coming up every few weeks or months and by the time one gets the time to experiment and finalise the drivers, a new h/w upgrade is out.
Any new hardware takes years to develop. The time lag between beta chips and production run is 6 to 9 months. The mfgs release specs to the mobo maker who in turn release the info to drivere writers much earlier than beta, but do not release any info to free developers even after release.
The experimenting should be done by the big Linux distro makers and provide a set of OS and driver CDs for a reasonable price.
U simply cant.. Read the abv. U are making it out to be an issue of cost /effort. Actually it is something totally different as pointed out in my previous post. It is an attempt to create a chain of bondage that prevents end users any attempt to change for a better alternative. How can a big distro remedy the situation?. Only the end user can by boycotting goods that do not have open drivers . No closed drivers for linux is not the solution u are merely tying yourself in tighter and spreading the cancer farther. My recent intel mobo is a case in point. I can install some ati crap and get "better" performnace today at the expense of getting doubly screwed when the system becomes part of critical infrastructure tomorrow. Which means using libre software in your business requires careful thought about your business model. The deeper u think the more u will realize the risky situation your business is in while working in the prop/closed environment. And libre software is not the problem it's just peeling the fake security most businesses are ensconed in.
Alternatively, the distro makers could have a section on their website called "Build your own PC"
There is much better and uptodate info on the web.
--- jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 02:42:07PM +0530, jtd
wrote:
U simply cant.. Read the abv. U are making it out to be an issue of cost /effort. Actually it is something totally different as pointed out in my previous post. It is an attempt to create a chain of bondage that prevents end users any attempt to change for a better alternative. How can a big distro remedy the situation?. Only the end user can by boycotting goods that do not have open drivers . No closed drivers for linux is not the solution u are merely tying yourself in tighter and spreading the cancer farther.
Your point is well taken and very valid but the issue is about why linux has failed to take off like windows. SOHO computer users form a very important and large base and M$ targeted that market and got its OS so popular (by whatever means is besides the point.) I am talking about big linux distro manufacturers because other than that FOSS is a voluntary effort and that is not enough to face competition and provide continuous support to the small office segment. We still have a self-service structure for promoting linux and that has to change, to going out of the way to promote linux. The first step towards that is to induce people to install linux in their systems. This can happen only if there is a _quick_ and one stop solution of providing a list of mobos, processors and other h/w *combinations* that are fully compatible to that particular linux distro. This can be done by big distro makers because they have the resources to do that. Instead of the h/w compatibility lists, there should be combinations/sets selected for certain purposes, like servers, office, games,multimedia or hig end graphics. The potential buyer simply selects a latest combination (actual mobo, not chipset) for his purpose and loads the recommended distro for it. As plain and simple as that. This would really go a long way to popularise linux. When the percentage of linux users increases, automatically more and more web based services will be linux compatible.
Regards,
Rony.
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On 8/8/06, Rony Bill ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
--- jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 02:42:07PM +0530, jtd
wrote:
U simply cant.. Read the abv. U are making it out to be an issue of cost /effort. Actually it is something totally different as pointed out in my previous post. It is an attempt to create a chain of bondage that prevents end users any attempt to change for a better alternative. How can a big distro remedy the situation?. Only the end user can by boycotting goods that do not have open drivers . No closed drivers for linux is not the solution u are merely tying yourself in tighter and spreading the cancer farther.
Your point is well taken and very valid but the issue is about why linux has failed to take off like windows. SOHO computer users form a very important and large base and M$ targeted that market and got its OS so popular (by whatever means is besides the point.) I am talking about big linux distro manufacturers because other than that FOSS is a voluntary effort and that is not enough to face competition and provide continuous support to the small office segment. We still have a self-service structure for promoting linux and that has to change, to going out of the way to promote linux. The first step towards that is to
i m crashing into this thread mid way completely, so sorry if i have missed any context . but i think you maynot be completely correct anylonger.
linux based os are being promoted by rh / novell / ubuntu etc .
rh and novell are investing big time in educating the market and training partners , education centers etc. i guess many hardware courses like jetking offer linux as a part of their course and a course dedicated to linux admin and certifictaions .
also there is something from intel called as linux system builder program which helps intel partners to build precertified linux compatible systems by using precertified mbd / nw card / snd card etc and has drivers and training material and all that online also . if the list if not aware of this then I can also try to have a session arranged for hardware engg or white box assemblers by getting right ppl novell and intel .
regards harsh
induce people to install linux in their systems. This can happen only if there is a _quick_ and one stop solution of providing a list of mobos, processors and other h/w *combinations* that are fully compatible to that particular linux distro. This can be done by big distro makers because they have the resources to do that. Instead of the h/w compatibility lists, there should be combinations/sets selected for certain purposes, like servers, office, games,multimedia or hig end graphics. The potential buyer simply selects a latest combination (actual mobo, not chipset) for his purpose and loads the recommended distro for it. As plain and simple as that. This would really go a long way to popularise linux. When the percentage of linux users increases, automatically more and more web based services will be linux compatible.
Regards,
Rony.
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--- Harsh Busa harsh.busa@gmail.com wrote:
If the list if not aware of this then I can also try to have a session arranged for hardware engg or white box assemblers by getting right ppl novell and intel .
Neki and ask ask? :) Most welcome.
Regards,
Rony.
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On 8/9/06, Rony Bill ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
--- Harsh Busa harsh.busa@gmail.com wrote:
If the list if not aware of this then I can also try to have a session arranged for hardware engg or white box assemblers by getting right ppl novell and intel .
Neki and ask ask? :) Most welcome.
is there any lug meet happening anytime soon ?
Regards,
Rony.
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Sometime on Thu, Aug 10, 2006 at 10:02:16AM +0530, Harsh Busa said:
If the list if not aware of this then I can also try to have a session arranged for hardware engg or white box assemblers by getting right ppl novell and intel .
Neki and ask ask? :) Most welcome.
is there any lug meet happening anytime soon ?
Would 27th of August be fine with all?
Anurag
sir, I am interested in linux how can start with linux and which flavour of linux is good for me so that i can work on it from beginner to professional and that should also provide me with maximum free tools .
Thankyou
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On Thursday 10 August 2006 12:05 pm, rocking ravi wrote:
sir, I am interested in linux how can start with linux and which flavour of linux is good for me so that i can work on it from beginner to professional and that should also provide me with maximum free tools .
Beginner - knoppix or ubuntu Proffessional - depends on what profession but.... Debian rocks. so does Gentoo, Suse, RH, Mandrake, Slackware, Debian has the largest user base and software repositories, a superb package management system and is focussed on stability. Debian also has testing and unstable repositories which u can use for bleeding edge stuff - not recommended for newbies. It also focusses on the primary reason for the existence of libre software - freedom.
important requirement BEFORE u jump into the deep end of the pool 1) check your hardware for chipset details, disk size, number of partitions and size. 2) list what activity u want to do on the machine Mail the above to the list and REEAD the replies. 3) get a good internet connection. MTNL ADSL has proven to be the "best" so far.
Actually installing and using GNU/linux is quite simple, but people being made of 26 chromosomes and gadzillion genes behave unpredictably hence the requirements.
On 8/10/06, jtd jtd@mtnl.net.in wrote:
Beginner - knoppix or ubuntu
I'd actually divide this into two categories: 1) beginner only wanting to get work done (email, docs, surfing, etc.): Ubuntu, Knoppix 2) beginner techie wanting to *learn*: Debian
Debian is good for learners for these reasons: 1) Excellent documentation. Their installation instructions are long but very good even for those without experience with disk partitioning (like I was once). 2) It's not very easy to screw up under Debian, mostly due to it's stability. It's a double edged sword though; many newer mobos could struggle with debian stale... err... stable ;-) 3) It's not as difficult to install as many make it out to be. The sarge installer is almost as simple as any without going the livecd way.
Regards, Siddhesh
On 10-Aug-06, at 3:52 PM, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
- beginner only wanting to get work done (email, docs, surfing,
etc.): Ubuntu, Knoppix
mandriva. (i know it is not macho to suggest it, but women, kids and grandmothers take to it like ducks to water) - i have also run serious multiple virtualhosts through apache, zope, plone, django sites and all kinds of other stuff on mandriva.
On Thursday 10 August 2006 10:22, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
- beginner techie wanting to *learn*: Debian
Its more like a beginner just wanting to wet his pants :P Fedora would be a more apt choice :) You've got stability and excellent hardware support :D
On 8/10/06, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
Its more like a beginner just wanting to wet his pants :P Fedora would
To each his own really. I started with Debian (that too woody, not sarge) and I felt that provided you read the manual and are ready to *read* the instructions while installing, there is no end to how much you can learn only in your first install itself. I call it the bottom up approach; learn the basics (basic configuration, CLUE, etc) and then try to build a GUI distro out of it.
Then again, I guess to each his own.
Regards, Siddhesh
On Thursday 10 August 2006 22:55, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
On 8/10/06, Dinesh Joshi dinesh.a.joshi@gmail.com wrote:
Its more like a beginner just wanting to wet his pants :P Fedora would
To each his own really. I started with Debian (that too woody, not sarge) and I felt that provided you read the manual and are ready to *read* the instructions while installing, there is no end to how much you can learn only in your first install itself. I call it the bottom up approach; learn the basics (basic configuration, CLUE, etc) and then try to build a GUI distro out of it.
Then again, I guess to each his own.
Hahaha, he's going to be really confused as to which distro to use!
On Thu, 2006-08-10 at 12:05 +0530, rocking ravi wrote:
sir, I am interested in linux how can start with linux and which flavour of linux is good for me so that i can work on it from beginner to professional and that should also provide me with maximum free tools
Look at OpenLX Linux. Specially the Desktop version (1 CD only) is a breeze to install and use.
--- Anurag anurag@gnuer.org wrote:
Sometime on Thu, Aug 10, 2006 at 10:02:16AM +0530, Harsh Busa said:
is there any lug meet happening anytime soon ?
Would 27th of August be fine with all?
Looks ok right now. :)
Regards,
Rony.
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On 08/08/06 17:44 +0100, Rony Bill wrote: <snip>
Your point is well taken and very valid but the issue is about why linux has failed to take off like windows. SOHO computer users form a very important and large base and M$ targeted that market and got its OS
Actually, MSFT targetted larger corporates, just like everyone else. If you use Linux at work, you will use Linux at home if you ever take work home. All that it takes is convincing a few large companies of the benefits of open specifications. If that implies that you refuse to work with them _except_ with open specifications, then accept that and follow it.
The bigger distros do support specific hardware combinations. They do need guarantees from the manufacturer about the time for which that combo will be available/supported.
Devdas Bhagat
On Tuesday 08 August 2006 12:10 pm, jtd wrote:
On Monday 07 August 2006 08:18 pm, Rony wrote:
On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 02:42:07PM +0530, jtd wrote:
On Saturday 05 August 2006 10:29 pm, Rony wrote:
Hardware is not the same for long.
HEHE. Rony your shouting worked.
http://intellinuxgraphics.org/
-- Rgds JTD
On 05-Aug-06, at 9:56 PM, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
Here's an option: Why don't you setup and run that as a business? After all, you have the freedom to do that.
Devdas Bhagat
he *is* running a business - and I, for one, am a fan
On Sunday 06 August 2006 01:24 pm, Devdas Bhagat wrote:
On 06/08/06 09:31 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
<snip>
he *is* running a business - and I, for one, am a fan
Not one for writing drivers. Just one for assembling PCs. I am sure that JTD could provide better input on the driver writing side of things.
1) Driver writing is the job of the chipset maker. Note M$ does not write drivers but charges a fat fee from mfgs for certifying their drivers as windows compatible. Which means we libre software developers are subsidising M$ hardware.
2) The quality of drivers written by mfgs is atrociuos in most cases. And in the few cases of mfg written closed drivers, the mfgs themselves cannot keep up with upstream fixes that keep happening in libre software.
3) NDAs which preclude disclosing any of the info they give u. Just go to the linuxbios list and look at the contortions that libre software develpopers have to go thru. It's a miracle that thay have come so far. In aprticular VGA bios for initilising video at boot time is patented and restricted from distribution, so they cannot package it for redistribution. Which makes for an incrdiblely complex process of extracting the bios from the board for reuse and has to be done by each individual.
4) Mfgs do not disclose info because that exposes serious flaws in the designs and libre software developers are likely to freak out - intel inside cannot divide (Ya u are essentially buying junk). Also late lateef who was about to loose will correct his design and win.This is particularly the case with graphics ( there are plenty of cases with smbus, sata and ide disks too). And the new improved mobo is nothing but bug riddance at your expense. Did u know that the 440bx and 82801 chip designs which are nearly 8 yrs old are in use in your "new" boards cause they have no bugs. But if u speak to chipset vendors they will have u believe that they are not disclosing info cause the competition will reverse engineer the product early in the product life cycle
Moral of the story: U are paying for junk while financing the next round of more complex less reliable junk by buying anything that is not fully supported by libre software.
The reason why most big bussinesses in the IT industry hate free softeware so much is because it's changing the ground rules and exposing the cosy con games between vendors. Had it not been for AMD opening up their 64bit specs u would be stuck with Intel itanic and M$ version of 16bit OS pretending to be 64bit while struggling to do 32 bit. Or wait for ever for Vista.
Realising these problems free developers are designing libre cores. There is a whole bunch of them including cores for embeded processors at opencores.org. There is a project for a graphics card too. But the initial cost is likely to be very high.
On 8/5/06, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
There is no time for all this in tight production schedules. Internet is not always available and at high speeds. What would be more penetrative is that Suse or Fedora or all such ones in India set up labs for testing and provide a set of drivers for every new hardware ( mobos and others) that comes into the market. They need not give it free. A small charge of Rs. 500/- for the distro and the driver set per mobo can be very attractive compared to Rs. 3700/- for XP home. The driver installation should be an automated script that simply needs to be double clicked.
You are contradicting yourself here. On one hand you are talking about tight production schedules and on the other you are talking about XP Home. I don't know anyone who uses crippled XP Home on production machines. People should shoot themselves in the head before attempting anything like this.
Linux need not be as complex as its meant to be. Its just an OS.
Stop perpetuating myths. Linux supports more hardware today "out-of-the-box" than any other OS out there. Don't believe me. Listen to Greg Knoah-Hartman. http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/ols_2006_keynote.html
-- Vinayak
On Sat, Aug 05, 2006 at 10:10:20PM +0530, Vinayak Hegde wrote:
On 8/5/06, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
There is no time for all this in tight production schedules. Internet is not always available and at high speeds.
You are contradicting yourself here. On one hand you are talking about tight production schedules and on the other you are talking about XP Home. I don't know anyone who uses crippled XP Home on production machines. People should shoot themselves in the head before attempting anything like this.
My production schedules, not clients'.
Linux need not be as complex as its meant to be. Its just an OS.
Stop perpetuating myths. Linux supports more hardware today "out-of-the-box" than any other OS out there.
Not true. Read JTD's mail on his experience with the new mobo with ATI that did not work out-of-the-box.
Regards,
Rony.
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On 8/5/06, Rony ronbillypop@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Not true. Read JTD's mail on his experience with the new mobo with ATI that did not work out-of-the-box.
Select hardware like ATI (and Nvidia I think) are an exception to this rule. I'm guessing you will get good performance with good resolutions for your X out of the box. It's just that the power of the graphics system (3D support for example) will not be out of the box so to speak. you will have to probably install the manufacturer's driver for it.
Also, I believe ATI manufacturer written drivers are proprietary. There's reverse engineered drivers available (not full performance though) since the specs are not open.
Siddhesh
On 04-Aug-06, at 7:46 PM, Roshan wrote:
So does this mean it GNU/Linux is only for Geeks?
GNU/Linux is only for geeks - that too, ubergeeks. Because only a ubergeek can distinguish between GNU/Linux and linux - or worry about the difference. For the rest are things like Ubuntu, Mandriva, Suse which work out of the box - the only thing preventing them from dominating is inertia
Half of the problem surfaces because people do not know. GNU/Linux and Linux gets more popularity than Ubuntu and stuff like that. When you ask people to code something for the installation, they're scared. If you promote stuff like Ubuntu, people will know how easy and more stable it is to use it and then use it.
warm regards, Pradeep
On 04/08/06 15:16 +0100, Roshan wrote: <snip>
So does this mean it GNU/Linux is only for Geeks?
GNU/Linux *is* for ubergeeks. No X, no vi(m). Wait, even ubergeeks are more advanced than that.
Linux, OTOH, needs to go on the business desktop. Once you have it there, then people who want to (or need to) take work home will switch. And that will force adoption.
What exactly stops a Windows User to migrate to any GNU/Linux?
The use of MS Office, and other Windows only applications. Are you on ODF at work yet? Have you been asking your product vendors for Linux applications, and open documentation formats? Are you still playing MP3s?
Devdas Bhagat
On 8/4/06, Roshan d_rosh2001@yahoo.co.in wrote:
What exactly stops a Windows User to migrate to any GNU/Linux?
Unawareness ... Many people dont know that GNU/Linux has a nice GUI.
-- R * Subramani My Log File: http://rsubramani.blogspot.com
Also "there is no _one_ Linux anymore" (You have Windows XP)
"...15 major releases (distros) and many of them don't work with each other.."
This is actually a good thing.
The reason why social engineering is easier in the Windows world is also an illustration of the dangers inherent in any monoculture, whether biological or technological. In the same way that genetic diversity in a population of living creatures is desirable because it reduces the likelihood that an illness - like a virus - will utterly wipe out every animal or plant, diversity in computing environments helps to protect the users of those devices.
Linux runs on many architectures, not just Intel, and there are many versions of Linux, many packaging systems, and many shells. But most obvious to the end user, Linux mail clients and address books are far from standardized. KMail, Mozilla Mail, Evolution, pine, mutt, emacs ... the list goes on. It's simply not like the Windows world, in which Microsoft's email programs - Outlook and Outlook Express - dominate. In the Windows world, a virus writer knows how the monoculture operates, so he can target his virus, secure in the knowledge that millions of systems have the same vulnerability. A virus targeted to a specific vulnerability in Evolution, on the other hand, might affect some people, but not everyone using Linux. The growth of the Microsoft monoculture in computing is a dangerous thing for users of Microsoft products, but also for all computing users, who suffer the consequences of disasters in that environment, such as wasted network resources, dangers to national security, and lost productivity
The content above is an extract from the article on this website
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/10/06/linux_vs_windows_viruses/
To understand the dangers of a monoculture read this document.
http://www.ccianet.org/papers/cyberinsecurity.pdf
Regards
Rishi
It states "Why has Linux never taken off? Simple; it's terribly easy to set up if you have a BSc or BTech degree ...."
As far as using GNU/Linux is concerned, my wife is doing fine with a Debian GNU/Linux desktop at home. I'm wondering if she can install Debian on the computer on her own, but it's worth giving a shot. I'll give her the CDs and see how it works out.
On the other side, I doubt she'd be able to install Windows on her own either. :-)
Rishi
On 05-Aug-06, at 11:37 AM, Rishi wrote:
It states "Why has Linux never taken off? Simple; it's terribly easy to set up if you have a BSc or BTech degree ...."
As far as using GNU/Linux is concerned, my wife is doing fine with a Debian GNU/Linux desktop at home. I'm wondering if she can install Debian on the computer on her own, but it's worth giving a shot. I'll give her the CDs and see how it works out.
wont be able to do it - give her mandrake or ubuntu and it will be a breeze. Debian GNU/Linux is even difficult to pronounce let alone install. I wonder why they dont say Ubuntu GNU/Linux or Redhat GNU/ Linux or
On 8/5/06, Rishi rishi.forums@gmail.com wrote:
On the other side, I doubt she'd be able to install Windows on her own either. :-)
If one can install Windows on a blank HDD on his/her own then he/she can install Debian/Fedora/Ubuntu on his/her own too.
It's the dual boot that makes people sweat. That too is not due to complication, it's more because they fear the loss of data.
Siddhesh
On Saturday 05 August 2006 12:09, Siddhesh Poyarekar wrote:
If one can install Windows on a blank HDD on his/her own then he/she can install Debian/Fedora/Ubuntu on his/her own too.
It's the dual boot that makes people sweat. That too is not due to complication, it's more because they fear the loss of data.
I seriously dont understand what scares people so much? I mean in the Windoze world its just -> pop in the CD -> next, next, next and you're done. Same is the case with all major distros ( think Fedora, Ubuntu etc... ). Its not all that scary unless you go in for something like Gentoo or Debian. Even then Debian installer is pretty decent.
It's the dual boot that makes people sweat. That too is not due to complication, it's more because they fear the loss of data.
Dual boot requires a user to have knowledge about disk partitions and that's where most of the complexity lies.
Fear of loss of data is a result of the lack of knowledge. :-)
-
Anurag -
Devdas Bhagat -
Dinesh Joshi -
Harsh Busa -
jtd -
Kartik Mistry -
Kenneth Gonsalves -
Mrugesh Karnik -
pradeep mohandas -
Rishi -
rocking ravi -
ronbillypop＠yahoo.co.uk -
Rony Bill
-
Roshan -
Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay -
Siddhesh Poyarekar -
subramani -
Sudhir Gandotra -
Vinayak Hegde -
आनंद (Anand M R)