Hello Fredricko...;)
You think we could distribute this to some key people around here too...???
Have any specific pple in mind...lemme know.
Trevor
===== ( >- GNU/LINUX, It's all about CHOICE -< ) /~\ __ http://www.qmailtheeasyway.com __ /~\ | ) / mailto: trevor.w@media.mit.edu \ (/ | |_|_ \ Research Asst, MediaLab / _|_| ___________________________________/
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On Mon, 4 Nov 2002 00:08:28 +0530 (IST) Frederick Noronha wrote:
"BILL to bill: Why India is a Critical Battleground in the War between Microsoft and Linux."
Dear Luggers
It's been months since I last played Quake III and my DM instincts are kicking again. There's been a series of events in the recent past that have brought me to the conviction that _we_need_to_fight. For our freedom, that is, and in the vast arena of computing machines and software.
Most of you must be aware of the concept of DRM, the DMCA, "Trusted Computing" and Microsoft Palladium, the support of such restrictive practices from chipmakers Intel and AMD (yes, my beloved AMD) and the media giants like Sony that are pushing for these restrictions. If this sounds like greek, please go through my post"Can you Trust your Computer", dated 23 October '02.
Interestingly, Microsoft has had a huge victory in the Anti-trust case (see "Microsoft Antitrust Judgement" post dated 2 Nov '02) and the final order not only allows MS from developing software that would enforce DRM and "Trusted Computing" but also exempts such software from the minor restrictions that have been imposed on other"Middleware".
So far, it's only the Americans who are affected and the public is not keeping quiet there either. The possibility of such restrictive practices being supported in India through legislations in India is not too far-fetched as you, Fred, pointed out in one of your articles following the top ET headline that GoI is pushing for OSS.
With all the above considerations in mind, I would like to propose that we, as members of a LUG, kick off the "Refuse to Use Microsoft Products (RUMP)" Campaign. Please visit http://www.angelfire.com/rebellion/rump/ for details of what this would be about.
Trevor, Philip, Dr. Nag, Dinesh, I waited for your response but....
Thank you and Happy Diwali to you all!
On Mon, Nov 04, 2002 at 10:55:58AM +0530, Tahir Hashmi wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2002 00:08:28 +0530 (IST) Frederick Noronha wrote:
"BILL to bill: Why India is a Critical Battleground in the War between Microsoft and Linux."
Dear Luggers
It's been months since I last played Quake III and my DM instincts are kicking again. There's been a series of events in the recent past that have brought me to the conviction that _we_need_to_fight. For our freedom, that is, and in the vast arena of computing machines and software.
Most of you must be aware of the concept of DRM, the DMCA, "Trusted Computing" and Microsoft Palladium, the support of such restrictive practices from chipmakers Intel and AMD (yes, my beloved AMD) and the media giants like Sony that are pushing for these restrictions. If this sounds like greek, please go through my post"Can you Trust your Computer", dated 23 October '02.
Interestingly, Microsoft has had a huge victory in the Anti-trust case (see "Microsoft Antitrust Judgement" post dated 2 Nov '02) and the final order not only allows MS from developing software that would enforce DRM and "Trusted Computing" but also exempts such software from the minor restrictions that have been imposed on other"Middleware".
So far, it's only the Americans who are affected and the public is not keeping quiet there either. The possibility of such restrictive practices being supported in India through legislations in India is not too far-fetched as you, Fred, pointed out in one of your articles following the top ET headline that GoI is pushing for OSS.
With all the above considerations in mind, I would like to propose that we, as members of a LUG, kick off the "Refuse to Use Microsoft Products (RUMP)" Campaign. Please visit http://www.angelfire.com/rebellion/rump/ for details of what this would be about.
Trevor, Philip, Dr. Nag, Dinesh, I waited for your response but....
In practice I refuse to use and try to convince people to use Microsoft products. But I would refuse to set this as an agenda or campign actively for this because, when GNU and FSF started there was no Microsoft. The idea of free software is independent of Microsoft. FSF and GNU have a positive agenda and to put it in a negative terms will deviate the purpose. The reason why I cannot swallow everything that Charles wrote in Business India is because, the media is now manufacturing a new concent. As you saw the article talked about economics but not about business ethics, freedom and philosophy. They are missing the point, but it is deliberate. And not because they are ignorant about it. The war is not against Microsoft, it is against proprietary software paradigm.
Nagarjuna
--- "Nagarjuna G." nagarjun@hbcse.tifr.res.in wrote:
will deviate the purpose. The reason why I cannot swallow everything that Charles wrote in Business India is because, the media is now manufacturing a new concent. As you saw the article talked about economics but not about business ethics, freedom and philosophy.
[snip]
Nag, i will add my own opinion to this debate.....................
I do agree with your point of view regarding the total lack of focus on the ethical/philosophy part of the Free Software Movement and how it differs from the way M$ goes around doing its business.
But also.....time and again the media needs to kick up the dust and stir a hornets nest just to ensure that people don't stop buying their stories and increase their circulation.
Personall sir........i think charles has done a DECENT job of unbiased reporting. But probably from your perspective there exists a LOT of LACUNAE on reporting on the ethical/philosophy part.
The most important part though remains sir is.....we have him on our side......and can use the Media as a Placard to take our movement to the masses.
Trevor
They are missing the point, but it is deliberate. And not because they are ignorant about it. The war is not against Microsoft, it is against proprietary software paradigm.
Nagarjuna
===== ( >- GNU/LINUX, It's all about CHOICE -< ) /~\ __ http://www.qmailtheeasyway.com __ /~\ | ) / mailto: trevor.w@media.mit.edu \ (/ | |_|_ \ Research Asst, MediaLab / _|_| ___________________________________/
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On Mon, Nov 04, 2002 at 02:49:16AM -0800, Trevor Warren wrote:
will deviate the purpose. The reason why I cannot swallow everything that Charles wrote in Business India is because, the media is now manufacturing a new concent. As you saw the article talked about economics but not about business ethics, freedom and philosophy.
[snip]
Nag, i will add my own opinion to this debate.....................
I do agree with your point of view regarding the total lack of focus on the ethical/philosophy part of the Free Software Movement and how it differs from the way M$ goes around doing its business.
But also.....time and again the media needs to kick up the dust and stir a hornets nest just to ensure that people don't stop buying their stories and increase their circulation.
Personall sir........i think charles has done a DECENT job of unbiased reporting. But probably from your perspective there exists a LOT of LACUNAE on reporting on the ethical/philosophy part.
I am only using Charles as a scape goat. (Sorry Charles! There are many like you all over the world.) Why do you say he did an unbiased reporting? He did what he thought people will like, and possibly that is the reason why he used `Linux' in plece of GNU/Linux. This is a bias. He, while, composing has judged for the community that it is Linux. This is how journalists manufacture consent and sustain the vicious circle. He writes that it is only the job of the purists to call it GNU/Linux, implying that people at large need not take those seriously. He succeeded in catching the attention for it was a cover story, and he should be congratulated.
Nagarjuna
Duh !! I am sorry, but what is the difference between Linux and GNU\Linux ?
Regards Saswata
----- Original Message ----- From: "Nagarjuna G." nagarjun@hbcse.tifr.res.in To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 5:14 PM Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] HappyDiwali thanx to BILL to bill in BusinessWorld
On Mon, Nov 04, 2002 at 02:49:16AM -0800, Trevor Warren wrote:
will deviate the purpose. The reason why I cannot swallow everything that Charles wrote in Business India is because, the media is now manufacturing a new concent. As you saw the article talked about economics but not about business ethics, freedom and philosophy.
[snip]
Nag, i will add my own opinion to this debate.....................
I do agree with your point of view regarding the total lack of focus on the ethical/philosophy part of the Free Software Movement and how it differs from the way M$ goes around doing its business.
But also.....time and again the media needs to kick up the dust and stir a hornets nest just to ensure that people don't stop buying their stories and increase their circulation.
Personall sir........i think charles has done a DECENT job of unbiased reporting. But probably from your perspective there exists a LOT of LACUNAE on reporting on the ethical/philosophy part.
I am only using Charles as a scape goat. (Sorry Charles! There are many like you all over the world.) Why do you say he did an unbiased reporting? He did what he thought people will like, and possibly that is the reason why he used `Linux' in plece of GNU/Linux. This is a bias. He, while, composing has judged for the community that it is Linux. This is how journalists manufacture consent and sustain the vicious circle. He writes that it is only the job of the purists to call it GNU/Linux, implying that people at large need not take those seriously. He succeeded in catching the attention for it was a cover story, and he should be congratulated.
Nagarjuna
Linux is just the kernel or the most important component of the operating system. GNU/Linux is the entire operating system. It contains the Linux kernel, and GNU programs like Bash, GCC, EMACS etc which help make a complete OS.
On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote:
Duh !! I am sorry, but what is the difference between Linux and GNU\Linux ?
Regards Saswata
----- Original Message ----- From: "Nagarjuna G." nagarjun@hbcse.tifr.res.in To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 5:14 PM Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] HappyDiwali thanx to BILL to bill in BusinessWorld
On Mon, Nov 04, 2002 at 02:49:16AM -0800, Trevor Warren wrote:
will deviate the purpose. The reason why I cannot swallow everything that Charles wrote in Business India is because, the media is now manufacturing a new concent. As you saw the article talked about economics but not about business ethics, freedom and philosophy.
[snip]
Nag, i will add my own opinion to this debate.....................
I do agree with your point of view regarding the total lack of focus on the ethical/philosophy part of the Free Software Movement and how it differs from the way M$ goes around doing its business.
But also.....time and again the media needs to kick up the dust and stir a hornets nest just to ensure that people don't stop buying their stories and increase their circulation.
Personall sir........i think charles has done a DECENT job of unbiased reporting. But probably from your perspective there exists a LOT of LACUNAE on reporting on the ethical/philosophy part.
I am only using Charles as a scape goat. (Sorry Charles! There are many like you all over the world.) Why do you say he did an unbiased reporting? He did what he thought people will like, and possibly that is the reason why he used `Linux' in plece of GNU/Linux. This is a bias. He, while, composing has judged for the community that it is Linux. This is how journalists manufacture consent and sustain the vicious circle. He writes that it is only the job of the purists to call it GNU/Linux, implying that people at large need not take those seriously. He succeeded in catching the attention for it was a cover story, and he should be congratulated.
Nagarjuna
Bhargav Bhatt Department of Applied Physics and Applied Mathematics, Columbia University, New York.
I think when most people think of Linux, they are thinking of the entire operating system, including all additional programs like bash, etc.
I have not yet got hold of the article and have not therefore, read it, but I think we can forgive mr. charles for making the same mistake.
Anyway, thanks for educating me, so now I will specify GNU/Linux
Regards Saswata
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bhargav Bhatt" bbb2004@columbia.edu To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] HappyDiwali thanx to BILL to bill in BusinessWorld
Linux is just the kernel or the most important component of the operating system. GNU/Linux is the entire operating system. It contains the Linux kernel, and GNU programs like Bash, GCC, EMACS etc which help make a complete OS.
On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Saswata Banerjee & Associates wrote:
Duh !! I am sorry, but what is the difference between Linux and GNU\Linux ?
Regards Saswata
----- Original Message ----- From: "Nagarjuna G." nagarjun@hbcse.tifr.res.in To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 5:14 PM Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] HappyDiwali thanx to BILL to bill in
BusinessWorld
On Mon, Nov 04, 2002 at 02:49:16AM -0800, Trevor Warren wrote:
will deviate the purpose. The reason why I cannot swallow everything that Charles wrote in Business India is because, the media is now manufacturing a new concent. As you saw the article talked about economics but not about business ethics, freedom and philosophy.
[snip]
Nag, i will add my own opinion to this debate.....................
I do agree with your point of view regarding the total lack of focus on the ethical/philosophy part of the Free Software Movement and how it differs from the way M$ goes around doing its business.
But also.....time and again the media needs to kick up the dust and stir a hornets nest just to ensure that people don't stop buying their stories and increase their circulation.
Personall sir........i think charles has done a DECENT job of unbiased reporting. But probably from your perspective there exists a LOT of LACUNAE on reporting on the ethical/philosophy part.
I am only using Charles as a scape goat. (Sorry Charles! There are many like you all over the world.) Why do you say he did an unbiased reporting? He did what he thought people will like, and possibly that is the reason why he used `Linux' in plece of GNU/Linux. This is a bias. He, while, composing has judged for the community that it is Linux. This is how journalists manufacture consent and sustain the vicious circle. He writes that it is only the job of the purists to call it GNU/Linux, implying that people at large need not take those seriously. He succeeded in catching the attention for it was a cover story, and he should be congratulated.
Nagarjuna
Bhargav Bhatt Department of Applied Physics and Applied Mathematics, Columbia University, New York.
--- Saswata Banerjee & Associates
I have not yet got hold of the article and have not therefore, read it, but I think we can forgive mr. charles for making the same mistake.
[snip]
Your are missing out on it....Grab it and read it ASAP.
Trevor
Anyway, thanks for educating me, so now I will specify GNU/Linux
Regards Saswata
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bhargav Bhatt" bbb2004@columbia.edu To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] HappyDiwali thanx to BILL to bill in BusinessWorld
Linux is just the kernel or the most important
component of the operating
system. GNU/Linux is the entire operating system.
It contains the Linux
kernel, and GNU programs like Bash, GCC, EMACS etc
which help make a
complete OS.
On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Saswata Banerjee & Associates
wrote:
Duh !! I am sorry, but what is the difference between
Linux and GNU\Linux ?
Regards Saswata
----- Original Message ----- From: "Nagarjuna G."
To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 5:14 PM Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] HappyDiwali thanx to
BILL to bill in BusinessWorld
On Mon, Nov 04, 2002 at 02:49:16AM -0800,
Trevor Warren wrote:
will deviate the purpose. The reason why
I cannot
swallow everything that Charles wrote in Business India is
because, the
media is now manufacturing a new concent. As you saw
the
article talked about economics but not about business ethics,
freedom
and philosophy.
[snip]
Nag, i will add my own opinion to this debate.....................
I do agree with your point of view
regarding the
total lack of focus on the
ethical/philosophy part of
the Free Software Movement and how it
differs from the
way M$ goes around doing its business.
But also.....time and again the media
needs to kick
up the dust and stir a hornets nest just to
ensure
that people don't stop buying their stories
and
increase their circulation.
Personall sir........i think charles has
done a
DECENT job of unbiased reporting. But
probably from
your perspective there exists a LOT of
LACUNAE on
reporting on the ethical/philosophy part.
I am only using Charles as a scape goat.
(Sorry Charles! There are
many like you all over the world.) Why do you
say he did an unbiased
reporting? He did what he thought people will
like, and possibly that
is the reason why he used `Linux' in plece of
GNU/Linux. This is a
bias. He, while, composing has judged for the
community that it is
Linux. This is how journalists manufacture
consent and sustain the
vicious circle. He writes that it is only the
job of the purists to
call it GNU/Linux, implying that people at
large need not take those
seriously. He succeeded in catching the
attention for it was a cover
story, and he should be congratulated.
Nagarjuna
http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
Bhargav Bhatt Department of Applied Physics and Applied
Mathematics,
Columbia University, New York.
http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
===== ( >- GNU/LINUX, It's all about CHOICE -< ) /~\ __ http://www.qmailtheeasyway.com __ /~\ | ) / mailto: trevor.w@media.mit.edu \ (/ | |_|_ \ Research Asst, MediaLab / _|_| ___________________________________/
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*previous scrap removed*
BTW, why are we still ILUG? Shouldn't we be IGLUG?
Regards,
Amol Hatwar.
On Wed, 6 Nov 2002 14:10:01 +0530 Amol Hatwar wrote:
BTW, why are we still ILUG? Shouldn't we be IGLUG?
According to http://www.ilug-bom.org.in/ we're:
"GNU/Linux Users Group of Mumbai, India"
On Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:56:34 +0530 Nagarjuna G. wrote:
In practice I refuse to use and try to convince people to use Microsoft products. But I would refuse to set this as an agenda or campign actively for this because, when GNU and FSF started there was no Microsoft. The idea of free software is independent of Microsoft. FSF and GNU have a positive agenda and to put it in a negative terms will deviate the purpose. The reason why I cannot swallow everything that Charles wrote in Business India is because, the media is now manufacturing a new concent. As you saw the article talked about economics but not about business ethics, freedom and philosophy. They are missing the point, but it is deliberate. And not because they are ignorant about it. The war is not against Microsoft, it is against proprietary software paradigm.
Sir
Thank you for going through my mail. I hadn't read the BW article before sending my mail so it was unaffected by the article's contents. As you said that GNU and FSF started much before Microsoft existed (and shall live much after the end of Microsoft's dominace, I am confident), I agree that this can not be taken up as the _sole_ agenda.
My intent for this campaign is solely to create awareness against Proprietary Software through the misdeeds of Microsoft as a live example of the dangers of using Proprietary Software. I would like the campaign to end when it is felt that there is sufficient awareness in the general computer-using public of India. Given the lion's share that Microsoft has in the (legit/illegit) usage of Proprietary Software, it would be easy to get people to refuse Proprietary Software in general if we succeed in getting them to refuse Microsoft Products.
Sir, please allow me to try and reason out why it is probably required to take an anti-Microsoft stance:
- GNU/FSF are pro FS as much as they are against Proprietary Software, as is apparent from the speeches RMS delivers. Needless to say, Microsoft is the most ubiquitous Proprietary Software Vendor and our struggle for promotion of FS undoubtedly involves a struggle against Microsoft.
- Microsoft is not only a Proprietary Software Vendor, it is also a monopolist and currently the sole developer of "Treacherous Computing". The struggle now is not just about the freedom of creation, distribution and usage of software, it's also about the freedom to _choose_ which software to run. It is only a far-fetched possibility that a company that termed the GPL as viral would allow GPLed software to have the "Trusted" certificate.
- When we talk of promotion of Free Software by talking about the virtues of FS, we have to crack the shell of the audience's willingness to accept our philosophy. However, as I have experienced, and so must have many us promoting FS, it is not very easy to grasp the concept of Free Software in one sitting, say, in a two hour lecture. It took me time and a lot of reading to understand this concept despite the fact that I was accepting and not being skeptical. (I am glad to say that I now understand this concept to an extent where I am successfully able to counter FUD on public forums and in private meetings.)
Perhaps, it would be more productive if we first create the willingness to accept in our audience. We first make them understand how Microsoft is now trying to put their businesses in trouble. When the people ask, "Now what should we do?", we tell them that it is not just Microsoft that is capable of this treachery, but any Proprietary Software vendor. We can then tell them how Free Software creates a better environment for knowledge sharing, innovation and business enhancement.
- Lastly, we are working against a cash-laden marketing and advertising machine. It is not difficult to understand what effect an advertisement showing Narayan Murthy praising Windows XP will have on a population of aspiring computer professionals who treat him as their role model, as well as on the general public who knows him as a highly successful businessman. I firmly believe that selling GNU/Linux merchandise that is attractive and easily within reach is a potent way of publicising our motive as well as generating revenue to fund our movement.
Please understand that fighting Microsoft's Monopoly is not my sole motive. The proposed campaign is only a transitionary activity in a broader and long-standing movement.
Thank you for your patience.
Regards.
Hello Tahir...
some very important issue being raised by you. Some are on the league we are thinking about and some arent.
There is ample debate needed on the following, and we would like to lend our ear to you for the same.
This is on our agenda too when we meet up next.
Trevor
===== ( >- GNU/LINUX, It's all about CHOICE -< ) /~\ __ http://www.qmailtheeasyway.com __ /~\ | ) / mailto: trevor.w@media.mit.edu \ (/ | |_|_ \ Research Asst, MediaLab / _|_| ___________________________________/
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Hello Tahir, its really nice to see you and others really proactive again on the LUG.
Pls don't fret that none of us have got in touch with you regarding the mail that you have sent accross to us. Please understand, that we have other obligations too and our mailboxes too seem to have been overflowing lately with the spurt in communication due to our increased activities that the ILUG-BOM has been undertaking accross the country.
We would like to give you an oppurtunity to make your point and hear you out on the same. Infact we need to hear you out and others too who have the same opinion as yours.
Push for a meeting on the guidelines that you have in mind and i am backing it too. As for your mail.....i still have it on my laptop and am going to go through it at anycost and get back to you on the same.
Don't fret pls...and help us help the rest.
Bye for now and have a nice day all.
Trevor
===== ( >- GNU/LINUX, It's all about CHOICE -< ) /~\ __ http://www.qmailtheeasyway.com __ /~\ | ) / mailto: trevor.w@media.mit.edu \ (/ | |_|_ \ Research Asst, MediaLab / _|_| ___________________________________/
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On Mon, 4 Nov 2002 02:41:09 -0800 (PST) Trevor Warren wrote:
Pls don't fret that none of us have got in touch with you regarding the mail that you have sent accross
Actually, I was trying to be apologetic. I guess I have made more noise than may be good for my/our health... er... reputation!
--- Tahir Hashmi code_martial@softhome.net wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2002 02:41:09 -0800 (PST) Trevor Warren wrote:
Actually, I was trying to be apologetic. I guess I have made more noise than may be good for my/our health... er... reputation!
[snip]
Tahir....lemme just recount some of my experience in life.
--> Great men don't do different Things...they do things DIFFERENTLY <--
We greatly appreciate your point of view and concern and WANT TO HEAR YOU OUT ON THE SAME.
Please make yourself comfortable and keep voicing your opinion......we ain't the LIH guyz to shoot you down, remember that.
Take care and have a nice day. Looking forward to meeting you as per my previous mail.
Bye for now and have a nice day.
Trevor
-- Tahir Hashmi (VSE, NCST) http://staff.ncst.ernet.in/tahir tahir AT ncst DOT ernet DOT in
We, the rest of humanity, wish GNU luck and Godspeed
===== ( >- GNU/LINUX, It's all about CHOICE -< ) /~\ __ http://www.qmailtheeasyway.com __ /~\ | ) / mailto: trevor.w@media.mit.edu \ (/ | |_|_ \ Research Asst, MediaLab / _|_| ___________________________________/
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Fredrick,
How is it that you always get info regarding almost everything, before anyone else. Is it journalist's priveledge ? Or more efforts than we make. I remember that you had posed details of seminars / events in Mumbai which we sitting here didnt know till then
Regards Saswata
PS : I am too picking up 3-4 copies of the magazine, one for me and others for friends
----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Noronha" fred@bytesforall.org To: linuxers@mm.ilug-bom.org.in Cc: "LinuxLingam" linuxlingam@bhairon.com Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 12:08 AM Subject: [ILUG-BOM] HappyDiwali thanx to BILL to bill in BusinessWorld
From the Delhi lists... Posted by LinuxLingam linuxlingam@bhairon.com
FN
---------- Forwarded message ---------- dear all,
BusinessWorld magazine India, just gave me my life's greatest Diwali gift:
a cover story, with an expressive, black-suit and bowtie clad billgates, eyeing an aggressive-looking Tux, with the headline:
"BILL to bill: Why India is a Critical Battleground in the War between Microsoft and Linux."
good amount of research done by Charles Assisi and Shelley Singh. though i wish the article could have been far more comprehensive, with more box stories, larger editorial coverage, etc.
the story does mention indian localizing efforts, and several
india-centric
initiatives.
i dunno about you guyz, but am going out to buy about a dozen copies of
the
Rs 5 per copy mag, and am gonna hand-deliver to key personnel in my key contact lists.
happy diwali to all.
May the Linux Lamp of Freedom Burn Brightly in Your Lives This Year, Bringing you Prosperity, Wealth, and Lots of Happiness.
LL